Otto
Well-known member
I’m using the Sony A6600 with Nikon 200-500mm. The combo behaves much like the FTZ adapter on my Z6ii. Not very fast so you have to measure your steps¡
DP Review of Z7II
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FB101
Well-known member
I agree fully, with the caveat of the Z cameras and highly specific areas like BIF where technology really does make a difference. Not saying that you can't do BIF with the Z bodies, there is plenty of evidence you can (we used to do it with manual focus so the Zs are masters by all measures), but that's one space where I'd say the camera may at times be a bit limiting, more on the success-rate than anything else. But outside of that narrow topic, your point is well taken.
Thanks...it was just a random thought...
In terms of speed, some of the lenses being discussed are slow compared to high performance lenses. The FTZ can't make a slow lens perform faster. The 200-500 is a relatively slow focusing lens while the 70-200 in various versions are all relatively fast focusing.
Camera body makes a difference. The FTZ is powered by the camera, and the camera battery for the Z cameras was just updated with the EN-EL15C. But that's not the same as the EN-EL18c. The EN-EL15B was 7 volts and capacity of 1900 mAh. The EN-EL15C is still 7 volts, but 2280 mAh. The EN-EL18c is 10.8 volts and 2500 mAh. In general, the D5/D6 cameras focus faster than the D500 or D850 due to the more powerful battery and processor tuned accordingly. All of the aforementioned DSLR cameras have a second processor to improve AF speed. There were some earlier cameras that used a grip and a different battery to increase the frame rate - another way to use more power. I'd expect to see a counterpart to the D6 released with much faster AF speed using the same FTZ because the camera will operate with higher voltage.
Some of the Z lenses are designed for faster speed - such as the S 70-200 f/2.8. In general, native lenses have an edge with AF speed, but there are too many variables to draw conclusions for all lenses. Not all lenses need high speed, and high speed may mean completely different designs and a different price point. For example, one way to improve AF speed used in the newest Z lenses is a second AF motor in the lens, which powers a second group of elements.
Camera body makes a difference. The FTZ is powered by the camera, and the camera battery for the Z cameras was just updated with the EN-EL15C. But that's not the same as the EN-EL18c. The EN-EL15B was 7 volts and capacity of 1900 mAh. The EN-EL15C is still 7 volts, but 2280 mAh. The EN-EL18c is 10.8 volts and 2500 mAh. In general, the D5/D6 cameras focus faster than the D500 or D850 due to the more powerful battery and processor tuned accordingly. All of the aforementioned DSLR cameras have a second processor to improve AF speed. There were some earlier cameras that used a grip and a different battery to increase the frame rate - another way to use more power. I'd expect to see a counterpart to the D6 released with much faster AF speed using the same FTZ because the camera will operate with higher voltage.
Some of the Z lenses are designed for faster speed - such as the S 70-200 f/2.8. In general, native lenses have an edge with AF speed, but there are too many variables to draw conclusions for all lenses. Not all lenses need high speed, and high speed may mean completely different designs and a different price point. For example, one way to improve AF speed used in the newest Z lenses is a second AF motor in the lens, which powers a second group of elements.
Otto
Well-known member
Would we then get a slightly faster performance from the 200-500 by upgrading the battery? It sounds like any improvement would be worth it. I still have a long way to go before buying a better performing lens.
You can't upgrade the battery for any difference at this time. But the battery could mean potential for improved performance depending on design decisions. The 200-500 by design will never be a fast lens with any camera. It's physically a long lens with lens element groups that need to travel a long distance as focus changes. The future 200-600 will likely have a design that produces faster AF as it is being designed for the Z cameras.
All these elements make up a system, and the weakest point or in this case - the slowest point - drives overall performance. Sometimes that issue can be improved with firmware, but often the biggest aspect is physical components or the design.
eaj101
Well-known member
Not to toss a fly in the ointment (or whatever disagreement is called). But I'm darned if I can find any difference in AF speed using the FTZ. Comparing a D500, D850, Z7 and Z50 on 600mm f/4 AF-I, 500mm f/4 D AFS-I, 500mm f/5.6 PF, 70-300 AF-P, 70-200 f/4 and a few others thrown in (whew!). I didn't use a stop watch but each lens was basically indistinguishable across camera bodies.
On switching... I tried out Sony for nearly a year, adding a a6500 and A7rii to my gear and on the release of the Zs threw in the towel and went back completely to Nikon. Lots of issues - adapted lenses didn't work very well, native Sony lenses (I'm looking at the 16-70 and 24-70) were meh or too expensive.... etc. Nikon's history of compatibility and being able to still use my old manual focus lenses sealed the deal.
Not to be contentious, but my experience differed.
On switching... I tried out Sony for nearly a year, adding a a6500 and A7rii to my gear and on the release of the Zs threw in the towel and went back completely to Nikon. Lots of issues - adapted lenses didn't work very well, native Sony lenses (I'm looking at the 16-70 and 24-70) were meh or too expensive.... etc. Nikon's history of compatibility and being able to still use my old manual focus lenses sealed the deal.
Not to be contentious, but my experience differed.
FWIW, here are the results of some controlled tests with the FTZ adapter. I shot video of the focus distance window and counted the frames. This is from minimum focus distance to infinity. On average, the FTZ slows them down by about half.
600mm
Z6ii = 1.5 seconds
Z6 = 1.4 seconds
D850 = 0.5 seconds
I honestly have no idea why the Z cameras were so slow with that lens. I ran the test multiple times and the results were the same each time.
200-500mm
Z6ii = 0.9 seconds
Z6 = 1 second
D850 = 0.8 seconds
In this case, I think the cameras can all drive the lens pretty much as fast as it can go.
500PF
Z6ii = 0.7 seconds
Z6 = 1 second
D850 = 0.4 seconds
Here, we see the Z6ii does hold a slight advantage, but no where near as fast as the D850 with the 24-70 E (which I think was around 0.4 or 0.5 seconds).
24-70 Z
Z6 = 0.7 seconds
Z6ii = 0.7 seconds
600mm
Z6ii = 1.5 seconds
Z6 = 1.4 seconds
D850 = 0.5 seconds
I honestly have no idea why the Z cameras were so slow with that lens. I ran the test multiple times and the results were the same each time.
200-500mm
Z6ii = 0.9 seconds
Z6 = 1 second
D850 = 0.8 seconds
In this case, I think the cameras can all drive the lens pretty much as fast as it can go.
500PF
Z6ii = 0.7 seconds
Z6 = 1 second
D850 = 0.4 seconds
Here, we see the Z6ii does hold a slight advantage, but no where near as fast as the D850 with the 24-70 E (which I think was around 0.4 or 0.5 seconds).
24-70 Z
Z6 = 0.7 seconds
Z6ii = 0.7 seconds
eaj101
Well-known member
Interesting. Thanks for the numbers. I wonder the cause. (I discount the idea that Nikon purposely hampers the FTZ, especially given how critical long term compatibility is to Nikon's message). I just went back and tried the D850 and Z7 on the 500PF (I don't have a Z6 or the other lenses you used) and I still think any difference I see is small. Not challenging your numbers, just thinking we have an interesting question.
It's tough to see a 1/2 second difference - I wasn't sure until I tested. One place I do notice the slower AF is a downfall is with closer subjects since the AF ring has to move more than it does for more distant targets. I notice the slowdown when shooting small bird at close range for sure.
eaj101
Well-known member
Thanks. I'll keep looking at. As I understand it the Zs are using phase-detect but why it should be slower escapes me. (I think the DSLRs do as well). I had always thought that, at least in good light, the lens motors and distance elements have to move determined AF speed. After all why (and how?) would a body affect it? With phase detect, the camera knows how far off it is and can essentially tell the lens 'go here'. Perhaps there's another confirmation step that's being used? Hmmm...
Steelhant
Member
I love my D6 and 600 f4 I'm just an armature wildlife shooter..my D850 died...my fault so I tried the Z7 great for stills but not action for me ! so I sold it and bought the Z7 ll, it's better but not for me, I wanted 45MP for my 600 mm... so I tried the R5 with a 600 mm, been a Nikon shooter for 15 years, I think I'm moving on !! Don't understand that Nikon knowing what Sony did and they knew Canon was coming, didn't have something at the same time, maybe they will down the road but who's going to wait when good AF cameras are working now !
abc123brian
Well-known member
The R5 sounds like a great camera for wildlife, but unless I already had Canon lenses I’d probably wait to switch until they release their native lenses. The small aperture versions out now don’t seem like a match for a $4k camera and I wouldn’t want to buy EF lenses now and change them for RF lenses in a year or two. I’m sure Nikon has a camera with great AF on the way, but they already announced there could be product delays due to parts shortages. My Z7ii shipped yesterday and I’m hoping it will be enough for me until we see what comes from Nikon and Canon. Having switched brands before, I can’t recommend enough to make sure they have everything you need/want before making the switch.
Thanks for the test, Steve. I wonder if the main difference is not due to the FTZ but difficulty in figuring out which direction and how far to focus. With the focus start point at minimum, the destination target at infinity is far out of focus, so the camera does not understand how far to move the lens. That results in needing to move the lens more often to achieve focus. The 600mm lens has the most extreme lack of contrast at the starting point, so it makes sense that focus would be slower starting at minimum focus. The fastest focusing results were with the 24-70 - a comparatively wide lens that is going to show some degree of contrast even at minimum focus.
The conventional approach for successful fast focus is to pre-focus at the general distance of your target. This allows the target to have more contrast and provides more AF precision - and possibly speed.
One of the comments about the Z cameras is that they use a hybrid phase detect - contrast detect AF, while the DSLR cameras use Phase Detect only. So perhaps it's the second step with contrast detect to refine focus that causes the delay, but also boosts AF accuracy.
It could be, but that same directional difficulty would also apply to the DSLRs. It's possible that the smaller PDAF sites (i.e. the masked pixels) aren't as good at phase discrimination for highly OOF images as the dedicated AF module in a DSLR. However, the Sony 600mm on the a9ii focuses at exactly the same speed as the Nikon 600E on the D6 (I tested that too). Since Sony is using the same masked pixel on-sensor PDAF, you'd think the Sony would be a bit slower - although maybe they have better software.
Also, before I sold my 24-70 E, I did try it on the Z cameras against the 24-70 Z mount lens - and the Z mount was faster on the Z cameras than the adapted E glass - but - the E glass was faster on the D850. So, that also leads me to think it's more of an FTZ slowdown than a symptom of PDAF. Although, it could be a combination of the on-sensor PDAF and the FTZ too.
I agree about pre-focusing to get close and that helps (I point it out in my book and have in several videos as well). It's an effective way to help overcome the speed loss
However - the speed loss is still noticeable at times, especially when dealing with fast moving little birds at close range as the hop from spot to spot.
As for the CDAF trim, I haven't been able to verify that one way or another. I'm fairly confident it does not use it in AF-C though just because you can't have the lens racking back and forth (even just a tiny amount for trim) while trying to lock onto a potentially moving target. Since I use AF-C all the time (and did for these tests), I don't think CDAF came into play.
See the two posts above from Eric and I.
The truth is, we just don't know for sure what's causing the slowdown. Canon shooters also use an adapter and claim there is no slowdown. So, I do lean towards the processing / signal translation that happens in the FTZ adapter (it has a chip), but I don't think anyone but Nikon knows for sure.
Steelhant
Member
I guess the D6 has me spoiled so it could be me...but the other day had a bird "Hawk" perched maybe 30 yards... Z7 ll with the 500 pf, I use the small box AF , I had to repeat the back button focus in order to lock on like two or three seconds and yet other times it works..very frustrating at times, maybe it is the adapter !!
I am no theorist and want a camera lens combo to get the maximum keepers in bird action series.( Where AF speed makes all the difference apart from my technique)
I have been getting nearly 95 percent keepers with my D500/ D 850 500 PF combo
I refuse to try any system which does not deliver such results
I have been getting nearly 95 percent keepers with my D500/ D 850 500 PF combo
I refuse to try any system which does not deliver such results
Keep in mind that the D6 also has cross-type AF sensors and mirrorless are only line type. So, it may have not seem enough vertical contrast. Seems unlikely with a hawk, but just tossing it out there. Next time it happens, rotate the camera 45 degrees and try focusing again and see if it grabs.
I tend to be a bottom line guy myself. I think that's why I got crucified for criticizing the original Z cameras - I expect a certain level of performance and if I don't get it, I don't want to use it. I'm here for the pics, not the gearI am no theorist and want a camera lens combo to get the maximum keepers in bird action series.( Where AF speed makes all the difference apart from my technique)
I have been getting nearly 95 percent keepers with my D500/ D 850 500 PF combo
I refuse to try any system which does not deliver such results
At the professional level and the advanced enthusiast level, the ability to capture a moment of peak action is very important. If you looks at a competition like Nature's Best or the NANPA Showcase, 2/3 of the wildlife images are action shots where timing is critical. Often these images involve highly skilled photographers who are willing to put in the time, travel, and practice to have lots of chances with a better than average probability of success.
For someone evaluating cameras, they need to look at what they shoot. Look at the top images over the last year, and how many of those involved birds in flight or fast moving action. If that's what you need, you need an action camera first and foremost. A D850 is marginal compared to a D5 or D6.
On the other hand, many photographers have a mixed portfolio with landscapes, macro, wildlife, and a sprinkling of fast action. Accurate focus may be more important. Capturing action may mean something different. There is a huge difference between capturing a wading bird and a swallow in flight. I can capture jumping horses in perfect position 95% of the time with a Z7II, but my hit rate is single digit percentages for swallows in flight with a long lens. I was out this afternoon and could not get within 50 feet of a sparrow in a thicket, but my shots of ducks on water are great.
Choose the camera and gear for what you shoot.
For someone evaluating cameras, they need to look at what they shoot. Look at the top images over the last year, and how many of those involved birds in flight or fast moving action. If that's what you need, you need an action camera first and foremost. A D850 is marginal compared to a D5 or D6.
On the other hand, many photographers have a mixed portfolio with landscapes, macro, wildlife, and a sprinkling of fast action. Accurate focus may be more important. Capturing action may mean something different. There is a huge difference between capturing a wading bird and a swallow in flight. I can capture jumping horses in perfect position 95% of the time with a Z7II, but my hit rate is single digit percentages for swallows in flight with a long lens. I was out this afternoon and could not get within 50 feet of a sparrow in a thicket, but my shots of ducks on water are great.
Choose the camera and gear for what you shoot.
Steelhant
Member
Keep in mind that the D6 also has cross-type AF sensors and mirrorless are only line type. So, it may have not seem enough vertical contrast. Seems unlikely with a hawk, but just tossing it out there. Next time it happens, rotate the camera 45 degrees and try focusing again and see if it grabs.
Steve thanks for the response, I will give it a try .
Steve thanks for the response, I will give it a try .
Steelhant
Member
Shooting long lenses is a challenge, finding a subject moving faster than fast and tracking and getting the capture is a rewarding feeling. For me the D6 makes it easy...lock and load...lol...I tried the Canon R5 with 600 mm f4.. Nikon Z7 ll like I said was not working for me and I'm still trying to figure it out..I'm not bashing the camera..I never thought about other brands ..I still love my Nikon gear.....But if you try the Canon R5 the tracking it really is something special !
Otto
Well-known member
After careful deliberation and opening my wallet (it was dark in there), I've decided to keep my d850 with the grip that gives me 9 frames. It will have to do till some green starts growing in my wallet. It will take some time, I probably will upgrade to a 'used' lens at some point.
So far I'm able to carry two cameras, two tripods and a large back up with me on short 2 mile trips. The enjoyment I get from the hike and wading in knee deep water is part of the photo experience. I must admit I did not read the fine print on the Z6ii frame rate. The lag on the viewfinder is what I discovered later.
Lesson learnt (expensive though).
So far I'm able to carry two cameras, two tripods and a large back up with me on short 2 mile trips. The enjoyment I get from the hike and wading in knee deep water is part of the photo experience. I must admit I did not read the fine print on the Z6ii frame rate. The lag on the viewfinder is what I discovered later.
Lesson learnt (expensive though).
If you intend on record shots of small birds with the Sony FFs you'll be disappointed. They don't AF reliably.