Frame rate

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sh1209

sh1209

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I've always been under the impression that 60 fps is better for moving subjects and have mostly used that. Lately I've been experimenting more with 8k and tried 8k24 on the moving subjects yesterday, albeit not moving fast and I was very pleased with the footage. I'm curious what others use most for not so fast subjects and why.
 
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I'm mostly shooting birds and my output timelines are typically 24fps or 30fps but 90% of my captures are done at 120fps and 60fps because I like to have a slo-mo option. Even large birds can move quickly. The only time I'll capture at 24/30fps is due to very low light (lower frame rate drops the ISO) or I want to use the 2x zoom option on my Z9. I only shoot 4k.
 
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Garfield said:
I'm mostly shooting birds and my output timelines are typically 24fps or 30fps but 90% of my captures are done at 120fps and 60fps because I like to have a slo-mo option. Even large birds can move quickly. The only time I'll capture at 24/30fps is due to very low light (lower frame rate drops the ISO) or I want to use the 2x zoom option on my Z9. I only shoot 4k.
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My one body only does 8k 24 which is the reason I was trying it and the other does 8k30. I normally do 4k60
 
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sh1209 said:
My one body only does 8k 24 which is the reason I was trying it and the other does 8k30. I normally do 4k60
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What's your timeline FPS? Are you going for slow motion (playback at 24 or 30) or smoothing (playback at 60)?

My approach:

1. I rarely use a shooting rate different from timeline rate,
2. I rarely use slow motion,
3. I dislike watching 60fps timeline,
4. I shoot and render at 24/25, or 30, depending on what shutter speed I need for a 180 angle,
5. I almost always shoot 8k log
 
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Nimi said:
What's your timeline FPS? Are you going for slow motion (playback at 24 or 30) or smoothing (playback at 60)?

My approach:

1. I rarely use a shooting rate different from timeline rate,
2. I rarely use slow motion,
3. I dislike watching 60fps timeline,
4. I shoot and render at 24/25, or 30, depending on what shutter speed I need for a 180 angle,
5. I almost always shoot 8k log
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With 24 or 30 I keep it uniform with the rate shot and will occasionally slow down 60fps. I almost think the look of the 24fps is more pleasing even with a moving subject. It looks more natural to me. You should really start instructing video classes lol. You're certainly a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate the help.
 
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I usually shoot in HD All-I format.
For subjects with moderate or greater movment I use 60fps. Otherwise it's 24 or 30 fps primarily to try and keep file sizes manageable. Rrarely do any slo-mo.
 
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sh1209 said:
With 24 or 30 I keep it uniform with the rate shot and will occasionally slow down 60fps. I almost think the look of the 24fps is more pleasing even with a moving subject. It looks more natural to me. You should really start instructing video classes lol. You're certainly a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate the help.
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Thank you. I actually do a monthly Zoom with a group of professional photographers that are transitioning to video. Yesterday's topic was equipment choice.

There is a distinction between inter and intra frame blur. Either because it's a law of nature or because we've been conditioned for 100 years, 24/25 is a sweetspot. But because 180 degrees angle is important, that translates to 1/50 shutter which will cause intra-frame blur which may render the clip useless. That's one of the reasons so much of animal videos are done at 120fps (shutter speed goes to 1/240) and played back either in 24/25 (slow) or at 120 (too smooth for my taste). There is also the practical space and overheating issues when using a hybrid, not a cinema camera and wanting high resolution.
 
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Nimi said:
Thank you. I actually do a monthly Zoom with a group of professional photographers that are transitioning to video. Yesterday's topic was equipment choice.

There is a distinction between inter and intra frame blur. Either because it's a law of nature or because we've been conditioned for 100 years, 24/25 is a sweetspot. But because 180 degrees angle is important, that translates to 1/50 shutter which will cause intra-frame blur which may render the clip useless. That's one of the reasons so much of animal videos are done at 120fps (shutter speed goes to 1/240) and played back either in 24/25 (slow) or at 120 (too smooth for my taste). There is also the practical space and overheating issues when using a hybrid, not a cinema camera and wanting high resolution.
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So for most people would you recommend just using the standard 422 probes in camera such as xavc in the Sony cameras. I'm assuming that's like jpeg in the video world. I'm contemplating experimenting with Sonys s-log. Ive flown DJI drones for years and to me the drone footage is more straight forward for some reason.
 
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Nimi said:
But because 180 degrees angle is important, that translates to 1/50 shutter which will cause intra-frame blur which may render the clip useless.
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Some hybrid cameras and maybe others have shutter speeds in video mode to deal with this. My Fuji X-T4 in video mode has 1/48, 1/120, 1/240 shutter speeds available.
 
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sh1209 said:
So for most people would you recommend just using the standard 422 probes in camera such as xavc in the Sony cameras. I'm assuming that's like jpeg in the video world. I'm contemplating experimenting with Sonys s-log. Ive flown DJI drones for years and to me the drone footage is more straight forward for some reason.
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100% dependent on your editing skills, but personally I wouldn't use anything other then Log at this point, possibly move to RAW when computers and storage are more capable. I don't know a pro that uses Cinetone, everyone seems to use Slog or some version of RAW. Getting from log to a standard profile is one click.

Profiles ARE like Jpegs, and Sony has the best, but grading becomes harder. The workflow I recommend (I have a short YT on it) is shoot log, use the manufacturer's lut to bring it to Rec 709, correct balance, contrast, lighting, shake, then grade (manually or with a lut) to get your "look." Shooting a profile saves you some steps, but the file is less malleable.

There is no such thing of "out of camera" in video; it takes a lot of work to produce a natural-looking scene.
 
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PhilcTx said:
Some hybrid cameras and maybe others have shutter speeds in video mode to deal with this. My Fuji X-T4 in video mode has 1/48, 1/120, 1/240 shutter speeds available.
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Fuji is years ahead of everyone else, and my b-roll is an XT4 with the 50/1.0. I'm seriously contemplating one of the new models.
 
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With both my X-T4 and A7iv I've tried F-Log, S-Log, Cine, etc. For my use these took more time in post-production to look good. I'm currently shooting with both in HLG - Hybrid-Log-Gamma.

For me HLG brings the footage closer to a graded version out-of-camera without the Log flatness but with good color saturation and dynamic range, etc. For my A7iv's HLG3 I do reduce the HLG3 profile's Saturation down to -10. HLG3 is meant for Rec 2020 HDR so is too saturated for my taste without reducing the camera's profile.

In Davinci Resolv I use it's Color Managed project settings with a Rec 2020 HLG input color space, Wide-Gamut Timeline color space, and Rec709 output color space. No LUT needed with this workflow to get the footage to Rec 709.
 
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PhilcTx said:
With both my X-T4 and A7iv I've tried F-Log, S-Log, Cine, etc. For my use these took more time in post-production to look good. I'm currently shooting with both in HLG - Hybrid-Log-Gamma.

For me HLG brings the footage closer to a graded version out-of-camera without the Log flatness but with good color saturation and dynamic range, etc. For my A7iv's HLG3 I do reduce the HLG3 profile's Saturation down to -10. HLG3 is meant for Rec 2020 HDR so is too saturated for my taste without reducing the camera's profile.

In Davinci Resolv I use it's Color Managed project settings with a Rec 2020 HLG input color space, Wide-Gamut Timeline color space, and Rec709 output color space. No LUT needed with this workflow to get the footage to Rec 709.
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So how do you know which pitcher profile in the Sony menu is white because mine is one through 11 and it doesn’t say what it is that’s the part I’m having trouble understanding is which one to select
 
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sh1209 said:
So how do you know which pitcher profile in the Sony menu is white because mine is one through 11 and it doesn’t say what it is that’s the part I’m having trouble understanding is which one to select
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In Picture Profile menu - scroll to a profile then tap the right side of the round multi-function dial.
 
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sh1209 said:
So for most people would you recommend just using the standard 422 probes in camera such as xavc in the Sony cameras. I'm assuming that's like jpeg in the video world. I'm contemplating experimenting with Sonys s-log. Ive flown DJI drones for years and to me the drone footage is more straight forward for some reason.
Click to expand...
For 99+% of the readers on this forum H264/265 4:2:0 codecs are all they will ever need and that includes most professional videographers if all they're doing is youtube videos. Shooting log is far more important than shooting raw, though you need to learn the quirks of log imagery and what LUTs are best for your needs. For example, Sony's SLog3 is excellent for capturing DR, but it's a bear to fix if you don't have the WB set correctly. And you need to capture it using a +1.7EC to get the best in terms of noise suppression. NLog's DR performance isn't as good as SLog3, but it seems to be more tolerant in terms of WB, but that may just be the camera firmware. Any time I've played around with raw (prores, prores raw or Nraw) I've been rather unimpressed even though the hype would have you believe it's must have. Raw formats simply require more work to get the best out of it, and I don't like work. :)
 
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Garfield said:
For 99+% of the readers on this forum H264/265 4:2:0 codecs are all they will ever need and that includes most professional videographers if all they're doing is youtube videos. Shooting log is far more important than shooting raw, though you need to learn the quirks of log imagery and what LUTs are best for your needs. For example, Sony's SLog3 is excellent for capturing DR, but it's a bear to fix if you don't have the WB set correctly. And you need to capture it using a +1.7EC to get the best in terms of noise suppression. NLog's DR performance isn't as good as SLog3, but it seems to be more tolerant in terms of WB, but that may just be the camera firmware. Any time I've played around with raw (prores, prores raw or Nraw) I've been rather unimpressed even though the hype would have you believe it's must have. Raw formats simply require more work to get the best out of it, and I don't like work. :)
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I’ve messed some with the s log today and I see what you mean as far as getting it right. I think for what I do the standard H264 will suffice. I do want to keep experimenting with slog for comparison purposes. I’ve been shooting some 8k 24 over the last few days and really like the look of it. I also agree that from what I’ve seen with s log today I haven’t been that impressed.
 
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I shoot most wildlife at 4k 120 and slow most of it down. Most of this is used in short clips up to a few minutes. A blink happens really fast but can look cool in slow motion for example. If I don’t plan on slow motion, I’ll shoot most things at 24 and sometimes 30. Playback at 24 usually looks best to me,
 
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abc123brian said:
I shoot most wildlife at 4k 120 and slow most of it down. Most of this is used in short clips up to a few minutes. A blink happens really fast but can look cool in slow motion for example. If I don’t plan on slow motion, I’ll shoot most things at 24 and sometimes 30. Playback at 24 usually looks best to me,
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So you’re slowing 120 down? The A1 does 240 but I haven’t tried it yet.
 
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After shooting some more log this weekend I found out Final Cut Pro has a basic Sony slog profile I can apply like a lut which gets things in the ballpark and makes for minimal work getting it tweaked. After discovering this I might start doing more in slog. I’ve also discovered thru some you tube videos what the proper zebra settings are for shorting slog. One other question I have when originally importing the video into Final Cut Pro, do I still leave the import setting at standard 422 since it’s log footage?
 
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sh1209 said:
So you’re slowing 120 down? The A1 does 240 but I haven’t tried it yet.
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Yeah, I feel 120 slowed down gives me what I’m looking for and some flexibility. I think 240 could be useful for some things, but overkill for most wildlife. If you plan to do a 30p video, 120 is 1/4 speed. 60 is 1/2 speed which is often not enough and 240 would move to slow. Of course that all changes if you plan to do a 60p video.
 
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