Fuji shooter looking for advice re: possible system change (BIF, landscape, sports, astro)

[Steve Miller]

Check out Steve's results on cropping:

Does Cropping Make Your Photos Noisy?! - Backcountry Gallery

Does cropping fill your photos with more noise? Is not filling the frame killing your images? Is there any way to stop it? In this video, we’ll explore comparative output and see first-hand the effects that cropping can have on the noise of our final output image. This is one video every...

backcountrygallery.com

Cropping? Better Drop Your ISO! - Backcountry Gallery

Let’s face it – sometimes we need to crop. However, when you’re faced with a photo in the viewfinder that’s gonna need an appointment with the crop tool, you gotta be careful. Noise is a tricky thing and it’s especially hard on images where cropping is required. In this video, we’ll take a look...

backcountrygallery.com

The Cropping Epidemic - Backcountry Gallery

I see it all the time – lens jockeys hacking off pixels and tossing them out like they were last week’s kitty litter. It pains me to witness such rampant cropping with so little regard for the consequences – especially since I know how potentially devastating it is to a photo. What really makes...

backcountrygallery.com

Cropping Full Frame Vs Shooting A Crop Camera - Backcountry Gallery

So, here’s a question to chew on. What will give you a better image – a crop camera (DX, APS-C) with a subject that fills the frame OR just shooting the same scene with a full frame camera and then cropping the photo to the same field of view? I see this come up all […]

backcountrygallery.com

Thanks, Graham.

I checked out Steve's videos and posts. All of them make sense. It just comes down to a trade-off of max aperture, shutter speed and ISO when the light starts to drop. If I can't fill the frame and can't drop my speed, I have to crank up the ISO and have to accept that the image will look worse when I really pump the ISO 6400+ with my X-H2s. If the subject is still too far away and I have to crop, it will needless to say look even worse...and I basically have to accept that it will be a "web-only" viewing image (at best). That's my goal with pursuing this potential new Z8 setup...to have more larger aperture lenses available on a FF frame body that all things held equal gives me 1-1.5 stops better high ISO/low light performance.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Steve Miller]

Thank you Steve.

My experience using the Z 9 with 500mm PF, 100-400mm, and 800mm PF is they all suffer focus freeze when birding. If the lens is focused past the subject the Z 9 in most instances refuses to refocus. However, if the lens is focused closer to the camera it will focus no problems. The Fuji X-H2S does suffer a similar issue but it will refocus more times than not. I have the function button on the Nikon lenses, which have them, and the Fuji 150-600mm to set focus at close to MFD. This allows the AF to work and focus on the subject. Sometimes if the subject is slower moving I will let the AF focus on a nearby subject which is vertical e.g. tree trunk which will also kick the AF into gear.

For BIF I find the Fuji will find the bird against a plain sky quite quickly without making any changes to AF mode. The Z 9 is very hit and miss for me. I know some will start with wide area tracking and when the bird is in the frame, using a function button, switch to 3D tracking. Considering the Fuji is at effective 900mm and the Nikon 800mm, the Nikon should have an advantage with a slightly wider FOV.

The images in the post above the one I linked of the Eastern Yellow Robin’s were taken using the Z 9, 800mm PF and a monopod. I usually handhold the combo, but this day I wanted to see if using a monopod would make life easier. It didn’t, but that’s another story.

The white-faced heron #5 was flying from left to right at a reasonably constant level. It had just taken off the ground so wasn’t moving very fast at this stage. While the bird was in focus for the majority of the sequence the eye was not in focus on the previous, and next image in the sequence. Yes, 3D tracking tracked the bird, eye detection had issues with the bird. I’m not having a dig at Nikon or their animal detection, it does a much better job than I can do.

Likewise image #2 in the same post, the close-up of the Tawny Frogmouth. Eye detection was switching from the eye to the tip of the beak. I did create a focus stack from the sequence which didn’t turn out too bad.

What I’m alluding to with this post, is it possible for you to rent a Sony and/or Nikon combo and try it in the field before you commit? From my experience using various brands they all have idiosyncrasies which may or may-not frustrate you. Myself personally will be moving the Fuji combo on at some stage, possibly when the Nikkor 180-600mm has been out in the field for a little while and I get real world feedback, plus see the results.

Thanks again, Richard.

Ugh. Surprising to hear that you still run into the same focus hunting issues with such an advanced body like the Z9 (and I assume Z8). I know there will be a learning curve if I move to the Z8 but if I do make the switch, I clearly want to increase my keeper rate and not have to fight the AF system as much as I currently do. One thing I'm not worried about is I assume the IQ for the in focus shots from the Z8 setup will be noticeably better than my Fuji setup.

While I've been focusing on the long lens BIF/sports aspect of the Z8 system, I'd also be getting it for landscape and astro where image quality from the Z8 sensor will surely outperform the X-H2s. Another plus in favor of making the move.

Good suggestion about renting the Z8 (I've already ruled out the Sony from a pure ergonomics perspective). I'll look into it but I have to imagine it will be a while before the 180-600 is out in the rental shops. Of course, I could always rent a 100-400 and 1.4x TC to test out the AF tracking system.

Steve

 

[Nimi]

Thanks again, Richard.

Ugh. Surprising to hear that you still run into the same focus hunting issues with such an advanced body like the Z9 (and I assume Z8). I know there will be a learning curve if I move to the Z8 but if I do make the switch, I clearly want to increase my keeper rate and not have to fight the AF system as much as I currently do. One thing I'm not worried about is I assume the IQ for the in focus shots from the Z8 setup will be noticeably better than my Fuji setup.

While I've been focusing on the long lens BIF/sports aspect of the Z8 system, I'd also be getting it for landscape and astro where image quality from the Z8 sensor will surely outperform the X-H2s. Another plus in favor of making the move.

Good suggestion about renting the Z8 (I've already ruled out the Sony from a pure ergonomics perspective). I'll look into it but I have to imagine it will be a while before the 180-600 is out in the rental shops. Of course, I could always rent a 100-400 and 1.4x TC to test out the AF tracking system.

Steve

I don't think his experience with the 9 is shared with many of us users. I never encountered it since the last two fw updates.

 

[Steve Miller]

My main lenses with the Z8 - and the Z7ii before that - are the 800mm PF and the 400mm f/4.5. The 400mm f/4.5 with the 1.4 TC is a dream to carry - and my first choice for bird walks. When I'm more serious and have time, the 800mm PF gets a lot of use. It's a bit heavier but reasonable to handhold.

The 500mm PF is an older lens but is quite sharp. It's a good option. There are also some fantastic deals on exotic F-mount lenses like the 500mm f/4 and even the 600mm f/4. Those are bigger lenses, but prices are amazing.

I find I'm always looking for more light to keep my shutter speed up and my ISO down. The faster apertures can be helpful.

The Z 1.4 TC is excellent, and on most lenses is perfectly usable. The 2X TC is probably the best Nikon has produced, but it's better with f/2.8 and f/4 lenses than with anything slower. I'd consider the 180-600 and 1.4 TC for occasional use, but it's going to require great technique to be usable at the long end. 900mm effective focal length is a very narrow field of view. You'll probably need to use IBIS to stabilize the EVF if you don't use a tripod.

Thanks, Eric.

Re: 900 mm effective FL...

Yep, if the subject is filling most of the frame, it's very tough for me to keep it inside, therefore in those settings I usually shoot at 450-500 to give myself some wiggle room. My problem is that I often find that even at 900mm effective, ospreys (common to see in NJ) are too far away. Part of the solution is I need to find better places to shoot BIF!

As far as the legacy lenses, I agree. Great prices if I want to go that direction. But then I'd also have to get the legacy 1.4x TC and I'm not sure how much I want to put towards lenses that will continue to depreciate in value. I'm not sure if this is correct but I also assume that the native Z lenses perform better on the Z8 (AF tracking accuracy and speed) than the legacy ones. Yes?

Steve

 

[Cameron T]

Thanks again, Richard.

Ugh. Surprising to hear that you still run into the same focus hunting issues with such an advanced body like the Z9 (and I assume Z8). I know there will be a learning curve if I move to the Z8 but if I do make the switch, I clearly want to increase my keeper rate and not have to fight the AF system as much as I currently do. One thing I'm not worried about is I assume the IQ for the in focus shots from the Z8 setup will be noticeably better than my Fuji setup.

I haven't had to fight the AF on my z9, except for cases where I'm in the wrong AF mode (think bird in deep brush, single point/1x1 custom wide area will give you the best results vs auto area, etc), the subject is extremely dark (backlit, or I just have the wrong exposure), or it's so small I probably shouldn't be shooting it regardless.

The issue of it grabbing the background is related to issue 3, where it refuses to refocus closer because it doesn't recognize that something is closer it should focus on and it's often extremely small (or extremely low contrast, but that's an issue across mirrorless systems).

While I've been focusing on the long lens BIF/sports aspect of the Z8 system, I'd also be getting it for landscape and astro where image quality from the Z8 sensor will surely outperform the X-H2s. Another plus in favor of making the move.

So interesting fact, the output from my z9 for astro is extremely clean (for the ISO/exposure time/heat). One theory (that I've seen no proof of) is that some pixels are just measured for dark current/etc to clean the noise up some more in the body. If that's true or not, I couldn't tell you. I'm not the guy to dig that deep, cloudynights might have someone that did.

I haven't been able to shoot much astro due to weather and real life, but I mean to get out some next month and put some time into it.

Good suggestion about renting the Z8 (I've already ruled out the Sony from a pure ergonomics perspective). I'll look into it but I have to imagine it will be a while before the 180-600 is out in the rental shops. Of course, I could always rent a 100-400 and 1.4x TC to test out the AF tracking system.

Steve

When you're playing with the rental, one of the important things to remember (among many others) is AF is driven off the viewfinder stream in some way. I don't know the secret sauce, but make sure your subjects are exposed well and fill most of the focus point/area used for best results.

 

[Nimi]

So interesting fact, the output from my z9 for astro is extremely clean (for the ISO/exposure time/heat). One theory (that I've seen no proof of) is that some pixels are just measured for dark current/etc to clean the noise up some more in the body. If that's true or not, I couldn't tell you. I'm not the guy to dig that deep, cloudynights might have someone that did.

That's an interesting observation, and that technology is actually implemented in some Canons (eg C70). It essentially has different ISOs for different parts of the sensor depending on how much lights hits the different regions. Haven't heard that Sony (which makes the Z9 sensor) has that technology. I always assumed it's simply a very good sensor.

 

[Steve Miller]

I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure how to quote snippets of a previous reply. Cameron, thanks for your most recent reply. I know there will be a learning curve getting to know the Nikon Z8/Z9 AF system. Patience on my part will definitely be needed but after seeing so many amazing action shots from Z8/Z9 shooters, I'm quite confident the camera won't be the reason I can't achieve a high hit rate of focused BIF shots.

Good to hear that you've been impressed with the Z9 files for astro.

As a general comment for everyone on this thread, this forum is very helpful and incredibly well behaved. There have been plenty of topics covered that on other forums (I think we know the main culprit), the dialogue would have been very heated. Let me think, just for starters I've mentioned such potentially contentious issues as multiple camera brands, talked about crop vs FF sensors, and discussed effective FL and aperture equivalence between different sensor sizes and not once has anyone started a flame war. So nice to see!!! I know one of Steve's pinned posts talks about how he would take down brand-bashing comments. Great to see that everyone lives by those words.

THANKS!

 

[Cameron T]

That's an interesting observation, and that technology is actually implemented in some Canons (eg C70). It essentially has different ISOs for different parts of the sensor depending on how much lights hits the different regions. Haven't heard that Sony (which makes the Z9 sensor) has that technology. I always assumed it's simply a very good sensor.

Like I said, I can't back it up with anything. It's cleaner than my z7 was in approximately the same conditions, but...how big of a difference is it? I don't know to be honest. I haven't spent the time trying to dig up the old raws. But it is cleaner by enough that I noticed it earlier this year when I compared them as an 'off hand' sort of test.

It's possible it is just a good sensor. But I didn't notice hot pixels either after shooting for 25 minutes straight (20 second exposures, I was hoping for longer, but clouds rolled in...).

 

[Cameron T]

I'm new to this forum so I'm not sure how to quote snippets of a previous reply.

Trick is to reply to it, and then hit enter after a sentence or section you want to specifically reply to. I try to do this and clean up extra stuff to it's easy to follow.

Cameron, thanks for your most recent reply. I know there will be a learning curve getting to know the Nikon Z8/Z9 AF system. Patience on my part will definitely be needed but after seeing so many amazing action shots from Z8/Z9 shooters, I'm quite confident the camera won't be the reason I can't achieve a high hit rate of focused BIF shots.

That's how I feel. I always ask myself "what did I screw up", because I'm the weakest link in the system, though I'll also feel better once I get the 180-600 as a native z lens, vs adapting one.

Good to hear that you've been impressed with the Z9 files for astro.

I'd post examples, but I don't have any good ones (the one session I really got in with it the image was soft, because of high thin clouds and possibly me misfocusing, but I thought it was good enough at the time). I will say I was also impressed with the z7 files, so it's not some "it took the z9 for me to shoot astro" thing, but the extra features (star light mode, lit buttons) also help make things a little easier as well.

 

[Richard_M]

Thanks again, Richard.

Ugh. Surprising to hear that you still run into the same focus hunting issues with such an advanced body like the Z9 (and I assume Z8). I know there will be a learning curve if I move to the Z8 but if I do make the switch, I clearly want to increase my keeper rate and not have to fight the AF system as much as I currently do. One thing I'm not worried about is I assume the IQ for the in focus shots from the Z8 setup will be noticeably better than my Fuji setup.

While I've been focusing on the long lens BIF/sports aspect of the Z8 system, I'd also be getting it for landscape and astro where image quality from the Z8 sensor will surely outperform the X-H2s. Another plus in favor of making the move.

Good suggestion about renting the Z8 (I've already ruled out the Sony from a pure ergonomics perspective). I'll look into it but I have to imagine it will be a while before the 180-600 is out in the rental shops. Of course, I could always rent a 100-400 and 1.4x TC to test out the AF tracking system.

Steve

I have no doubt you'll love the Z 8.

Don't worry too much about the AF, it is what it is. The lenses I've used with the Z 9, focus fast. I have found using Morris's settings for the Fuji plus making a few tweaks how I photograph in the field I now get plenty of keepers. From my discussions with other photographers here in AU, including Canon mirrorless users, they suffer the same/similar focus issues I get. Where many of us shoot, the birds can be quite close, in some cases too close (that's when a zoom comes in handy, plus why I have the lens refocus close to MFD). Distant subjects fair better. I get less focus issues using my Z fc with the 100-400mm plus 1.4TC. I put that down to not having many AF smarts in the camera.

A couple of my findings using Nikon for many years:

HDR. You want to use it, the option is greyed out. No help to let you know what items need to be disabled in the menu to get HDR to operate. Once you get past that one, you need to activate the shutter for each exposure. Both Fuji and Olympus have the smarts to change settings in the background as required so you can activate HDR without making other changes. Plus you only need to activate the shutter once and the sequence is automatically done.

Focus-bracketing, Nikon requires you to start it from the menu, then it blanks the screen during the sequence. Both Fuji and Olympus allow the use of a shutter release to start the sequence, plus as the sequence is in progress you can view it on the screen. Very handy for me as many of the subjects I photograph a tiny and having a magnified view while the sequence is running I can see if there is any subject movement.

Providing the above doesn't worry you, then you'll get alot of enjoyment with the Nikon. The larger files of the Z 9 are nice to work with, the lenses I use are lovely and sharp, and overall I'm pleased with the results I get. I still feel the Fuji colours are more natural, but that's only my opinion.

 

[Richard_M]

I don't think his experience with the 9 is shared with many of us users. I never encountered it since the last two fw updates.

That is good news @Steve Miller. You don't need to concern yourself with the AF, just look forward to alot of fun times with the Nikon Z 8

 

[dabhand16]

Thanks, Graham.

I checked out Steve's videos and posts. All of them make sense. It just comes down to a trade-off of max aperture, shutter speed and ISO when the light starts to drop. If I can't fill the frame and can't drop my speed, I have to crank up the ISO and have to accept that the image will look worse when I really pump the ISO 6400+ with my X-H2s. If the subject is still too far away and I have to crop, it will needless to say look even worse...and I basically have to accept that it will be a "web-only" viewing image (at best). That's my goal with pursuing this potential new Z8 setup...to have more larger aperture lenses available on a FF frame body that all things held equal gives me 1-1.5 stops better high ISO/low light performance.

Cheers,

Steve

Modern AI noise reduction programmes are really good now, and even the new LR tool is not bad. For my photography I've found the Fuji high ISO performance to be pretty good.

I'd probably sell/PX one of my XT-4s for an XH-2s while I save up for a Z8. Got fed up waiting for the Z8 so about a year ago I sold my D850 to get onto the Z mount train.

I've also found the Fringer adaptor for Nikon F>Fuji X mount allows me to use all of my F mount lenses with focus motors to AF on the Fujis.

 

[Michael Dreese]

At Native ISO, the Z8 sensor has a significantly higher dynamic range than the XH2S sensor, about 1.5 stops, so the files will be cleaner and easier to edit, especially bringing in the shadows. This isnimportant for outdoors where you often encounter blown highlights. You can underexpose a little to protect the highlights then recover the shadows. Harder to do with the Fuji. At ISOs 200-400, dynamic range is identical. Above that, the Nikon is about 1/2 stop better.

In addition to sensor size, the Z8 also has a pixel pitch which is a good 25% larger than the Fuji: less noise across the exposure range.

So net net net, before looking at MTF charts for the lenses of choice, the Z8 will give you a better, more pliable image.

Great point, I have found that the Nikon raw files have a large degree of latitude for shadow recovery. I also find that the files do not require a large amount of editing. Most of the time I use the Standard camera profile as a base. I still shoot Fuji for my travel photography and love the lighter weight and the JPEGs but I found the Fuji raw files difficult to work with in LR.
I faced the same decision as to my wildlife and action photography. I now shoot with a Z8 as my main camera and use a Z6 for low light and Astro work. I think you will be very pleased with the image quality and ergonomics of the Z8. I’m using the 100-400 S and the 500mm PF. It’s a great lightweight combo.

 

[FB101]

You did the right thing, holding both cameras and figuring out for yourself which one feels better to you. That’s such a huge factor in the overall enjoyment of a system.

I’d just flag one last question though that hasn’t been addressed yet, for your reflection. What exposure mode do you use for BIF?
If you use full manual, like I do, you will find that bodies that offer 3 wheels (for aperture, speed and iso) are vastly easier to use than those that require a push + scroll for one of the parameters - in other words, the A1 and R5 are much easier to use in that case.
If you use aperture priority + auto-iso (most people do) then 2 wheels like the z8 is perfectly fine.

And just to be clear, you can shoot full auto on the z8, it’s just not as fast and convenient to change all 3 parameters. And for Astro, that limitation is irrelevant but for BIF it’s meaningful.

When it comes to lenses, hard to argue with the solutions from Nikon; they do have the best line-up for wildlife today. Sonys advantage are the 3rd party lenses if you are looking for high quality alternatives at more competitive price points.

The question of needing 3 wheels vs 2 aside, the z8 is outstanding and if that’s where your handling experience takes you, stop sweating it and go for it. There is nothing that you listed in your needs that the z8 can’t do extremely well.

 

[Steve Miller]

I have no doubt you'll love the Z 8.

Don't worry too much about the AF, it is what it is. The lenses I've used with the Z 9, focus fast. I have found using Morris's settings for the Fuji plus making a few tweaks how I photograph in the field I now get plenty of keepers. From my discussions with other photographers here in AU, including Canon mirrorless users, they suffer the same/similar focus issues I get. Where many of us shoot, the birds can be quite close, in some cases too close (that's when a zoom comes in handy, plus why I have the lens refocus close to MFD). Distant subjects fair better. I get less focus issues using my Z fc with the 100-400mm plus 1.4TC. I put that down to not having many AF smarts in the camera.

A couple of my findings using Nikon for many years:

HDR. You want to use it, the option is greyed out. No help to let you know what items need to be disabled in the menu to get HDR to operate. Once you get past that one, you need to activate the shutter for each exposure. Both Fuji and Olympus have the smarts to change settings in the background as required so you can activate HDR without making other changes. Plus you only need to activate the shutter once and the sequence is automatically done.

Focus-bracketing, Nikon requires you to start it from the menu, then it blanks the screen during the sequence. Both Fuji and Olympus allow the use of a shutter release to start the sequence, plus as the sequence is in progress you can view it on the screen. Very handy for me as many of the subjects I photograph a tiny and having a magnified view while the sequence is running I can see if there is any subject movement.

Providing the above doesn't worry you, then you'll get alot of enjoyment with the Nikon. The larger files of the Z 9 are nice to work with, the lenses I use are lovely and sharp, and overall I'm pleased with the results I get. I still feel the Fuji colours are more natural, but that's only my opinion.

Hi Richard,

Thanks again for the additional tips and info.

Steve

 

[EricBowles]

Thanks, Eric.

Re: 900 mm effective FL...

Yep, if the subject is filling most of the frame, it's very tough for me to keep it inside, therefore in those settings I usually shoot at 450-500 to give myself some wiggle room. My problem is that I often find that even at 900mm effective, ospreys (common to see in NJ) are too far away. Part of the solution is I need to find better places to shoot BIF!

As far as the legacy lenses, I agree. Great prices if I want to go that direction. But then I'd also have to get the legacy 1.4x TC and I'm not sure how much I want to put towards lenses that will continue to depreciate in value. I'm not sure if this is correct but I also assume that the native Z lenses perform better on the Z8 (AF tracking accuracy and speed) than the legacy ones. Yes?

Steve

I'm not sure where you normally photograph, but ospreys are relatively easy when you find a nesting pair feeding chicks in a nest. Fort DeSoto near St. Petersburg is great in Florida - enough nests that you probably will get tired of photographing osprey.

With any subject, there are places that give you high probability opportunities. For wading birds, the rookery at the St. Augustine Alligator Farm gives you hundreds of large nesting birds. There are times and places for shorebirds, but the sun angle and the wind direction are critical. Sometimes you are just too far away - and if that is with 800-900mm you need to either get closer or find a different approach to the subject.

Many of us limit our subject matter and structure our gear to match what we can photograph well. Technique and subject knowledge makes a lot more difference than gear.

 

[Steve Miller]

Great point, I have found that the Nikon raw files have a large degree of latitude for shadow recovery. I also find that the files do not require a large amount of editing. Most of the time I use the Standard camera profile as a base. I still shoot Fuji for my travel photography and love the lighter weight and the JPEGs but I found the Fuji raw files difficult to work with in LR.
I faced the same decision as to my wildlife and action photography. I now shoot with a Z8 as my main camera and use a Z6 for low light and Astro work. I think you will be very pleased with the image quality and ergonomics of the Z8. I’m using the 100-400 S and the 500mm PF. It’s a great lightweight combo.

Thanks, Michael.

I've pretty much decided to go the Z8 route but will wait until I can get it with the 180-600 to confirm that I"m happy with the AF tracking and accuracy. Based on comments here as well as Steve's and other people's videos, I have every reason to believe that won't be an issue. I'll probably get the Z8 with the 24-120, 180-600, 1.4x TC and something like the 20/1.8 for astro. Down the line I could see adding a used 400/4.5 as well as a used Z7II or Z6II for travel/backup.

Steve

 

[Steve Miller]

I'm not sure where you normally photograph, but ospreys are relatively easy when you find a nesting pair feeding chicks in a nest. Fort DeSoto near St. Petersburg is great in Florida - enough nests that you probably will get tired of photographing osprey.

With any subject, there are places that give you high probability opportunities. For wading birds, the rookery at the St. Augustine Alligator Farm gives you hundreds of large nesting birds. There are times and places for shorebirds, but the sun angle and the wind direction are critical. Sometimes you are just too far away - and if that is with 800-900mm you need to either get closer or find a different approach to the subject.

Many of us limit our subject matter and structure our gear to match what we can photograph well. Technique and subject knowledge makes a lot more difference than gear.

Thanks, Eric.

I'm in NJ near Asbury Park. Haven't found much diversity here and typically see osprey, cormorants, geese, and countless seagulls. Did see a bald eagle the other day which is pretty rare on the shore. Much better variety down in Cape May, though that's a couple of hours away.

I'm new to the area (moved from Northern NJ last fall) but have heard of some better places around me for BIF. Will check them out soon.

Steve

 

[EricBowles]

Thanks, Eric.

I'm in NJ near Asbury Park. Haven't found much diversity here and typically see osprey, cormorants, geese, and countless seagulls. Did see a bald eagle the other day which is pretty rare on the shore. Much better variety down in Cape May, though that's a couple of hours away.

I'm new to the area (moved from Northern NJ last fall) but have heard of some better places around me for BIF. Will check them out soon.

Steve

Cape May is terrific - and you have a great location for night herons in Ocean City. My family had a long history in Ocean Grove.

If you have a great location within a couple of hours, it is close.

 

[Roy]

Hi,

First time post here (please be nice ).

The summary of the long post below is that I’m looking for suggestions for a good all around system to possibly replace my Fuji X-H2s and lenses. Ideally, it would be good for BIF/sports (excellent AF tracking), landscapes (high resolution and detail), and astrophotography (low noise at high ISOs).

Background:

I enjoy all types of photography but for this question, am looking for the best system for shooting BIF/sports, landscapes and astrophotography (lunar and Milky Way). From a Minolta SRT-101 when I was a teenager to my current Fuji gear, I've shot just about every current brand. Before moving to Fuji about seven years ago, I shot with a Nikon D500 and loved it (moved to Fuji for various reasons). Three developments have led me to consider switching from Fuji to a FF system: 1) I've been showing and selling my work at photography/art shows and am already printing up to 28" (long side) and can see even larger sizes in the future, 2) I moved to the beach in the past year and have a lot more opportunities to shoot BIF and surfing and 3) I've been doing more astro work where better performance at high ISO settings is always appreciated.

I love shooting Fuji but have always found that AF tracking and reliability isn’t as good as how I perceive the current Nikon, Sony and Canon bodies to be. AF tracking on the X-H2s is better than in the X-T series, and while I can definitely get it to work, the hit rate and difficulty nailing focus is still much worse than I would like in 2023. Additionally, for regular shooting, noise is fine, but in lower light, or shooting fast action with slower lenses (the XF 150-600 is a 5.6-8 lens), I find the images to be too noisy.

So with that intro, I’m looking for thoughts as to what current bodies offer the best all around package for the diverse situations I plan on using it for. After reading countless online reviews and watching videos, I feel like the two best candidates are the Nikon Z8 and the Sony A1. Since I don’t want a permanent battery grip, I’m ruling out the Canon R3 and get the impression that the R5 isn’t as good as the A1 and Z8 for sports/BIF. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

One of the drawbacks with Fuji is the lack of fast telephoto options. The reach of the 150-600 f/5.6-8 is fantastic, especially on a crop sensor, but it’s slow and more difficult to crush the background. Also, there are no dedicated longer lens prime options aside from the very expensive and short 200/2. I feel like a great two lens option for the Z8 could be the yet to be released 180-600 and the 500/5.6 PF (ca. $2k used) with an FTZ adapter.

As far as the A1, I’m not a big fan of the overall feel of shooting Sony bodies but acknowledge that Sony has one of the best, if not best AF tracking algorithms. I wouldn’t want to drop $6500 on a new A1 but see plenty of lightly used ones for $4500 so that’s close enough in price to a new Z8. I’m less familiar with Sony’s lens offerings. Do they have an equivalent to the 500 PF? How is the 200-600?

Anyway, this post is way too long so thanks for making it this far. Any suggestions you have are much appreciated.

Steve

P.S. I don’t think it will be difficult to find wide to short tele options with any new system so didn’t ask about those types of lenses.

The Canon R3 is a very good birding/wildlife camera - but for me lacksresolution.
The Sony A1 is alo a great camera and I love the higher flash sync - but I dont like the ergonomics.
The Nikon Z8 is about the best value top end camera right now - although the recall is annoying.
If Astro is your main concern maybe start with the lens and work backwards.
Either the Nikon 20mm f1.8 Z or G lens seems the preferred lens for astro.
I find the Z8 a fantastic all rounded camera body.
If you dont need video the Nikon D850 is still a great camera and even better value now.
I still have one D850 body left for the jobs a mirrorless camera cant do ...

 

[Michael Dreese]

Thanks, Michael.

I've pretty much decided to go the Z8 route but will wait until I can get it with the 180-600 to confirm that I"m happy with the AF tracking and accuracy. Based on comments here as well as Steve's and other people's videos, I have every reason to believe that won't be an issue. I'll probably get the Z8 with the 24-120, 180-600, 1.4x TC and something like the 20/1.8 for astro. Down the line I could see adding a used 400/4.5 as well as a used Z7II or Z6II for travel/backup.

Steve

I think that’s a sound strategy. I can highly recommend the 24-120. It’s a fantastic travel lens. My next purchase will be the 20mm 1.8 S for astro and wide angle landscapes. The 180-600 will be an interesting lens. I’m going to read the reviews after the release date.

 

[O]

Hi,

First time post here (please be nice ).

The summary of the long post below is that I’m looking for suggestions for a good all around system to possibly replace my Fuji X-H2s and lenses. Ideally, it would be good for BIF/sports (excellent AF tracking), landscapes (high resolution and detail), and astrophotography (low noise at high ISOs).

Background:

I enjoy all types of photography but for this question, am looking for the best system for shooting BIF/sports, landscapes and astrophotography (lunar and Milky Way). From a Minolta SRT-101 when I was a teenager to my current Fuji gear, I've shot just about every current brand. Before moving to Fuji about seven years ago, I shot with a Nikon D500 and loved it (moved to Fuji for various reasons). Three developments have led me to consider switching from Fuji to a FF system: 1) I've been showing and selling my work at photography/art shows and am already printing up to 28" (long side) and can see even larger sizes in the future, 2) I moved to the beach in the past year and have a lot more opportunities to shoot BIF and surfing and 3) I've been doing more astro work where better performance at high ISO settings is always appreciated.

I love shooting Fuji but have always found that AF tracking and reliability isn’t as good as how I perceive the current Nikon, Sony and Canon bodies to be. AF tracking on the X-H2s is better than in the X-T series, and while I can definitely get it to work, the hit rate and difficulty nailing focus is still much worse than I would like in 2023. Additionally, for regular shooting, noise is fine, but in lower light, or shooting fast action with slower lenses (the XF 150-600 is a 5.6-8 lens), I find the images to be too noisy.

So with that intro, I’m looking for thoughts as to what current bodies offer the best all around package for the diverse situations I plan on using it for. After reading countless online reviews and watching videos, I feel like the two best candidates are the Nikon Z8 and the Sony A1. Since I don’t want a permanent battery grip, I’m ruling out the Canon R3 and get the impression that the R5 isn’t as good as the A1 and Z8 for sports/BIF. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

One of the drawbacks with Fuji is the lack of fast telephoto options. The reach of the 150-600 f/5.6-8 is fantastic, especially on a crop sensor, but it’s slow and more difficult to crush the background. Also, there are no dedicated longer lens prime options aside from the very expensive and short 200/2. I feel like a great two lens option for the Z8 could be the yet to be released 180-600 and the 500/5.6 PF (ca. $2k used) with an FTZ adapter.

As far as the A1, I’m not a big fan of the overall feel of shooting Sony bodies but acknowledge that Sony has one of the best, if not best AF tracking algorithms. I wouldn’t want to drop $6500 on a new A1 but see plenty of lightly used ones for $4500 so that’s close enough in price to a new Z8. I’m less familiar with Sony’s lens offerings. Do they have an equivalent to the 500 PF? How is the 200-600?

Anyway, this post is way too long so thanks for making it this far. Any suggestions you have are much appreciated.

Steve

P.S. I don’t think it will be difficult to find wide to short tele options with any new system so didn’t ask about those types of lenses.

Highly suggest waiting for the new Sony A1 II coming soon, i hear the technology and additional power will be greatly advanced, personally i am exhausted with the moody issues of the Z9 and general QC issues with Nikon that seems to be surfacing now in the Z8.

Sony at least has a better menu system and software reliability, with far less QC issues, as well Sony has 4-5 years of refined mirror less development compared to Nikon.

As a Nikon Z9 owner i must say i trust Sony and Canon flagships more then the new Nikon flagships, 2024 will be telling and the time to change, some new exciting things are coming from Canon and Sony.

AI technology will play a bigger part going forward, Nikon's software skills traditionally are not as advanced or reliable in my personal opinion and seem more hybrid and unrefined rushed and made on the run.

AI technology will take a little pressure of glass dependency.

I would definitely explore or lean to Sony subject to Canon's new line up in 2024.

And that's coming from a Z9 D850, and former D6 D5 D4s owner.

Nikon is just catching up when the bar is going up in 2024 again.

Date the camera, marry the glass is true, but if you cant trust the camera getting married makes no sense.

Trust is important.

Only an opinion

 

[Steve Miller]

Highly suggest waiting for the new Sony A1 II coming soon, i hear the technology and additional power will be greatly advanced, personally i am exhausted with the moody issues of the Z9 and general QC issues with Nikon that seems to be surfacing now in the Z8.

Sony at least has a better menu system and software reliability, with far less QC issues, as well Sony has 4-5 years of refined mirror less development compared to Nikon.

As a Nikon Z9 owner i must say i trust Sony and Canon flagships more then the new Nikon flagships, 2024 will be telling and the time to change, some new exciting things are coming from Canon and Sony.

AI technology will play a bigger part going forward, Nikon's software skills traditionally are not as advanced or reliable in my personal opinion and seem more hybrid and unrefined rushed and made on the run.

AI technology will take a little pressure of glass dependency.

I would definitely explore or lean to Sony subject to Canon's new line up in 2024.

And that's coming from a Z9 D850, and former D6 D5 D4s owner.

Nikon is just catching up when the bar is going up in 2024 again.

Date the camera, marry the glass is true, but if you cant trust the camera getting married makes no sense.

Trust is important.

Only an opinion

Hi O,

Thanks for your comments. I mentioned in one of the follow up replies that after trying out both bodies in a camera store, I ruled out the A1. I understand that the AF is fantastic and that as Sony was first into FF mirrorless, they successfully exploited their first mover advantage. However, for me, I find the overall shooting experience equally if not more important (BIF/action sports is just one of the 3-4 genres why I would buy the Z8). I know that tons of photographers use Sony and love their cameras. That's great for them. For me though, it just didn't feel comfortable. I didn't base that on playing with the A1 for 30-min in a store...I used to own a A7II and A7RII and the A1 felt very similar to what I felt when I used to shoot with those two Sony bodies.

As an aside, my price point is around $4k. I was only looking at the A1 because I could pick up a used one for $4500. I'm sure an A1 II would be at least the $6500 of the current A1 which puts it out of my reach (would rather spend that money on lenses). Also, there's always something better coming around the corner and I accept it anytime I buy camera gear, especially a body.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[O]

Hi O,

Thanks for your comments. I mentioned in one of the follow up replies that after trying out both bodies in a camera store, I ruled out the A1. I understand that the AF is fantastic and that as Sony was first into FF mirrorless, they successfully exploited their first mover advantage. However, for me, I find the overall shooting experience equally if not more important (BIF/action sports is just one of the 3-4 genres why I would buy the Z8). I know that tons of photographers use Sony and love their cameras. That's great for them. For me though, it just didn't feel comfortable. I didn't base that on playing with the A1 for 30-min in a store...I used to own a A7II and A7RII and the A1 felt very similar to what I felt when I used to shoot with those two Sony bodies.

As an aside, my price point is around $4k. I was only looking at the A1 because I could pick up a used one for $4500. I'm sure an A1 II would be at least the $6500 of the current A1 which puts it out of my reach (would rather spend that money on lenses). Also, there's always something better coming around the corner and I accept it anytime I buy camera gear, especially a body.

Cheers,

Steve

Sorry Steve i missed that, my error.

FWIW The Z8 is a excellent camera and Nikon is especially great with service and repairs as they need to be, more so over the past two years.
I am a Nikon lover owner user, Nikon makes great lenses as well.
You will love the Z8 for what it does and is. Many of our club members are very happy with it.

I understand you have to be happy with what your holding or using, also cost, Above all enjoy what your doing.

On a side note, where my head was at, in my mind I don't like Sony as a company but i don't mind some of the end products they develop.

What i see as the world is moving more into video and less into stills and now with combined with AI arriving, Sony has the benefit of some serious levels of vertical technology integration, i mean there in cameras, lenses, video cameras and lenses, Phones, Drones, cinema film industry inclusive of advanced AI technology, animation films, music and sound industry, all these areas are a huge resource of creative engineering and design, as we know Sony is also one of the largest producers of sensors in the world.

So capture, connectivity, streaming, videoing, communication, even Drones, entertainment, all seems very interesting.

Weight size combined with performance and especially proven reliability will become a greater key factor going forward driven by consumer expectations.

That said, new glass will always move along with this new technology.

I think we are in for some exciting times going forward.

Above all enjoy your Z8 you will love it.

 

[dabhand16]

for me, I find the overall shooting experience equally if not more important

Amen. I was drawn into the Fuji XT system as the XT-1 on release, reminded me so much of my first SLR - a Pentax SV bought in around 1964/5 and I still have it! I just love the Fuji XT form factor. In turn this led me into using vintage manual focus lenses which slow me down and brought the fun back into photography.

I tend to use my Nikon Z6ii with the vintage lenses more as the Fuji has a crop sensor and I missed the real focal lengths, especially with wider lenses.