Handheld Focus Shift Shooting (Z9) almost impossible

[Chris K]

I can’t imagine how or why anyone would want to do a focus shift/stack with any camera without a tripod. To be effective, focus shift requires exactly the same image to be shot at ever so slightly different focal points which, in my mind, requires a rock solid foundation (i.e. a good tripod) to pull off. The resulting images need to be very closely/exactly aligned for the ultimate merged file to be in focus. Not sure about anyone else, but my aging hands aren’t up to the task without some good support.

Why would someone want to do it? Cause carrying a tripod is a chore. If I could handhold all my photos--from astro to macro to the stereotypical waterfall photo--I'd be happy to do so. Heck, I'd be happy if my camera could levitate to handle family portraits!

Technology is slowly reducing the need for tripods, and that's a great thing!

Handheld focus stacking is a new frontier in photography, thanks to IBIS (and stepper motors to a lesser extent). It's a dicey proposition with current technology, but I'm sure computational photography (think iPhone's "night mode") will arrive soon and make this a reasonable way to shoot.

Personally, I've found handheld focus stacking to not work so well for macro. It's challenging to keep framing consistent enough to do focus stacking without throwing out most of the frame.

On the other hand, landscapes tend to work well. With the Z9 I manually rack focus while watching my framing. With my X-T5 I use the nifty auto focus stacking feature (you tell it your near and far focus points and it automatically shoots a stack at 20fps with live view). In any case, I find it pretty easy to keep consistent framing when shooting handheld stacks of far-away things.

 

[Roy]

Why would someone want to do it? Cause carrying a tripod is a chore. If I could handhold all my photos--from astro to macro to the stereotypical waterfall photo--I'd be happy to do so. Heck, I'd be happy if my camera could levitate to handle family portraits!

Technology is slowly reducing the need for tripods, and that's a great thing!

Handheld focus stacking is a new frontier in photography, thanks to IBIS (and stepper motors to a lesser extent). It's a dicey proposition with current technology, but I'm sure computational photography (think iPhone's "night mode") will arrive soon and make this a reasonable way to shoot.

Personally, I've found handheld focus stacking to not work so well for macro. It's challenging to keep framing consistent enough to do focus stacking without throwing out most of the frame.

On the other hand, landscapes tend to work well. With the Z9 I manually rack focus while watching my framing. With my X-T5 I use the nifty auto focus stacking feature (you tell it your near and far focus points and it automatically shoots a stack at 20fps with live view). In any case, I find it pretty easy to keep consistent framing when shooting handheld stacks of far-away things.

Bracing can make focus stacking possible in a pinch.
But I still get better results on a tripod and not using the internal stacking ...

 

[Chris K]

Bracing can make focus stacking possible in a pinch.
But I still get better results on a tripod and not using the internal stacking ...

For sure--a tripod gives give better results. But just like with wildlife, you can usually get a good shot handheld, which greatly speeds up your days' shooting. I find when shooting macro I generally run out of hours in the day before I run out of subjects, so handheld shooting is valuable to me to keep on the hunt. That's why I'm going to shoot with just my XT5 and 80/2.8 this year, and leave the Z9 at home.

 

[iGPU]

Several above posts asked why would someone use focus bracketing off of a tripod. Well, one significant use of focus bracketing is for handheld macro-photography, using an AF macro lens combined with a flash and a close-up diffuser. Current Nikon implementation of focus bracketing makes this macro-flash work impossible.

First, the start of the bracketing sequence needs to be instigated by the shutter release, not an image-blocking menu (the present menu start is good for tripod landscape shots but not handheld work). Second, the delay between shots needs to be adjustable from 0.2 to 0.3 sec to allow for fast flash re-cycling (the current 1, 2, 3 sec delays are fine for studio flashes, but again, not handheld work). The flashes for macro shots are typically used at 1/32 power (at f8, ISO 400) and due to the close distances, fast re-cycling is possible. And third, a delay before the first shot should be adjustable from 0 to 1 or 2 sec (0 for flash work, 1-2 sec for tripod landscape work to minimize camera movement).

I was expecting to do this on my Z8, with the Z MC 50 mm lens, and found I was staring at a menu item to begin the stack and could no longer see the subject. For moving insects this is a no-go. Disappointing.

I've used other systems (an OM-1 using focus bracketing, not in-camera stacking), and with a delay set to 0.2 sec, 7 shots can be fired off in ~1.2 sec, all while viewing the subject. Shown below is a typical macro flash diffuser (this one is a Cygnustech; the KR-60G is also nicely made; Micael Widell on YouTube has many macro examples using similar diffusers). The flashes can be inexpensive, such as the Godox TT350 models (the Olympus version, TT350o, fired just fine on the Z8 since the shots are all made in manual mode).

Hopefully, Nikon can address this matter with a firmware update (and I'd also like them to store exposure modes when saving A-D menu banks, and, have separate banks between stills and video). But seeing how these things seem to have persisted for several body iterations, a change will not likely be very soon.

The Z8 seems great for portraits, sports and BIF (and of course, video), but now, not so useful for my macro work.

 

[Roy]

Several above posts asked why would someone use focus bracketing off of a tripod. Well, one significant use of focus bracketing is for handheld macro-photography, using an AF macro lens combined with a flash and a close-up diffuser. Current Nikon implementation of focus bracketing makes this macro-flash work impossible.

First, the start of the bracketing sequence needs to be instigated by the shutter release, not an image-blocking menu (the present menu start is good for tripod landscape shots but not handheld work). Second, the delay between shots needs to be adjustable from 0.2 to 0.3 sec to allow for fast flash re-cycling (the current 1, 2, 3 sec delays are fine for studio flashes, but again, not handheld work). The flashes for macro shots are typically used at 1/32 power (at f8, ISO 400) and due to the close distances, fast re-cycling is possible. And third, a delay before the first shot should be adjustable from 0 to 1 or 2 sec (0 for flash work, 1-2 sec for tripod landscape work to minimize camera movement).

I was expecting to do this on my Z8, with the Z MC 50 mm lens, and found I was staring at a menu item to begin the stack and could no longer see the subject. For moving insects this is a no-go. Disappointing.

I've used other systems (an OM-1 using focus bracketing, not in-camera stacking), and with a delay set to 0.2 sec, 7 shots can be fired off in ~1.2 sec, all while viewing the subject. Shown below is a typical macro flash diffuser (this one is a Cygnustech; the KR-60G is also nicely made; Micael Widell on YouTube has many macro examples using similar diffusers). The flashes can be inexpensive, such as the Godox TT350 models (the Olympus version, TT350o, fired just fine on the Z8 since the shots are all made in manual mode).

Hopefully, Nikon can address this matter with a firmware update (and I'd also like them to store exposure modes when saving A-D menu banks, and, have separate banks between stills and video). But seeing how these things seem to have persisted for several body iterations, a change will not likely be very soon.

The Z8 seems great for portraits, sports and BIF (and of course, video), but now, not so useful for my macro work.

View attachment 63704

I've managed some stacking on the Z9 even handheld - but rarely been happy with the results.
Since the Z6 i've been begging Nikon to give us at least a preview to stacking.
I'm keeping an old D850 DSLR mainly for focus stacking (On a tripod) ...

 

[O]

I've managed some stacking on the Z9 even handheld - but rarely been happy with the results.
Since the Z6 i've been begging Nikon to give us at least a preview to stacking.
I'm keeping an old D850 DSLR mainly for focus stacking (On a tripod) ...

I am keeping my D850 for that and many other reasons, one being i have some nice Ziess glass that communicates with the D850 but not the Z9.

The D850 is good for that and the 105 Macro is an exceptional lens to do it with.

Steve does stacking with the Z9 for macro at a fast frame rate before the subject mooves, as i recall unless i have it all wrong.

Only an opinion

 

[O]

Several above posts asked why would someone use focus bracketing off of a tripod. Well, one significant use of focus bracketing is for handheld macro-photography, using an AF macro lens combined with a flash and a close-up diffuser. Current Nikon implementation of focus bracketing makes this macro-flash work impossible.

First, the start of the bracketing sequence needs to be instigated by the shutter release, not an image-blocking menu (the present menu start is good for tripod landscape shots but not handheld work). Second, the delay between shots needs to be adjustable from 0.2 to 0.3 sec to allow for fast flash re-cycling (the current 1, 2, 3 sec delays are fine for studio flashes, but again, not handheld work). The flashes for macro shots are typically used at 1/32 power (at f8, ISO 400) and due to the close distances, fast re-cycling is possible. And third, a delay before the first shot should be adjustable from 0 to 1 or 2 sec (0 for flash work, 1-2 sec for tripod landscape work to minimize camera movement).

I was expecting to do this on my Z8, with the Z MC 50 mm lens, and found I was staring at a menu item to begin the stack and could no longer see the subject. For moving insects this is a no-go. Disappointing.

I've used other systems (an OM-1 using focus bracketing, not in-camera stacking), and with a delay set to 0.2 sec, 7 shots can be fired off in ~1.2 sec, all while viewing the subject. Shown below is a typical macro flash diffuser (this one is a Cygnustech; the KR-60G is also nicely made; Micael Widell on YouTube has many macro examples using similar diffusers). The flashes can be inexpensive, such as the Godox TT350 models (the Olympus version, TT350o, fired just fine on the Z8 since the shots are all made in manual mode).

Hopefully, Nikon can address this matter with a firmware update (and I'd also like them to store exposure modes when saving A-D menu banks, and, have separate banks between stills and video). But seeing how these things seem to have persisted for several body iterations, a change will not likely be very soon.

The Z8 seems great for portraits, sports and BIF (and of course, video), but now, not so useful for my macro work.

View attachment 63704

If you get around $2000 AUD or $1650 USD for a used D850 why would you sell it, unless you have gone or are going full mirror less. To me its a classic model to keep.

 

[Chris K]

Welcome, @iGPU!

Nikon's focus stacking mode is disappointing in how it blocks the screen, I agree. It's a tripod-only, in my opinion. I'm coming from Oly and Fuji, and both do it better.

That said, I rarely stack with flash, because I tend to shoot flash mostly for bugs, and bugs tend to move faster than stacking will allow without frequent failures.

When I am stacking, I'm generally shooting ambient light, and in that case I find the Z9's best mode of operation is to set the frame rate high and either rack the focus ring or move the camera towards the subject. This is a little less precise than the automated approach of other systems, but at 20fps I tend to get plenty of good frames to throw into Helicon.

I even saw someone was using 8K video on a Z9 to do focus stacking, and it worked really well. If I weren't terrified of dealing with gigantic video files I'd probably try the same.

Heads up, you can get TTL back on your existing Godox flashes simply by buying something from Godox with a Nikon controller. The RF communications channel on Godox flashes is universal, it's just the hot shoe and TTL language that's different on the controller. I use my TT350 to control my macro twin flashes on Fuji, and one of their "XPro" controllers or my V1 on my Z9.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

Why would someone want to do it?

"because you can" and "you may need to" when you are not be able to or allowed to use a tripod.
I have shot stacks on tripods, monopods, mini-supports and handheld.
The trick is to shoot with the fastest FPS possible and hold the camera as steady as you can -- then "give tolerance" in helicon focus pro for the software to fix movement issues. Handholding you may need to leave a lot of space around your target.
Anyone who struggles with this should look at Riviera Macro's vids on YT.

 

[DRwyoming]

One thing to consider with hand held focus stack shooting is it's not just a matter of frame alignment side to side and up and down but also any tiny movements fore and aft can directly impact focus and impact the focus shift between shots in the stacking sequence.

Obviously this depends on the application of focus stacking and how minutely the focus is being adjusted between individual images in the sequence. For landscape work it might not be so bad with steady hand holding but for macro work, especially really tight 1:1 or thereabouts macro work, the focus adjustments between shots is often measured in millimeters and any camera movement towards or away from the subject could have a big impact in addition to any movement laterally or vertically.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

See -

 

[O]

"because you can" and "you may need to" when you are not be able to or allowed to use a tripod.
I have shot stacks on tripods, monopods, mini-supports and handheld.
The trick is to shoot with the fastest FPS possible and hold the camera as steady as you can -- then "give tolerance" in helicon focus pro for the software to fix movement issues. Handholding you may need to leave a lot of space around your target.
Anyone who struggles with this should look at Riviera Macro's vids on YT.

That's what i was recalling Steve did ?, use HFPS while the subject was still for that 2 or 3 seconds ?

interesting the video technique ?

 

[O]

See -

Great Video have subscribed thank you

 

[iGPU]

Welcome, @iGPU!

Nikon's focus stacking mode is disappointing in how it blocks the screen, I agree. It's a tripod-only, in my opinion. I'm coming from Oly and Fuji, and both do it better.

That said, I rarely stack with flash, because I tend to shoot flash mostly for bugs, and bugs tend to move faster than stacking will allow without frequent failures.

When I am stacking, I'm generally shooting ambient light, and in that case I find the Z9's best mode of operation is to set the frame rate high and either rack the focus ring or move the camera towards the subject. This is a little less precise than the automated approach of other systems, but at 20fps I tend to get plenty of good frames to throw into Helicon.

I even saw someone was using 8K video on a Z9 to do focus stacking, and it worked really well. If I weren't terrified of dealing with gigantic video files I'd probably try the same.

Heads up, you can get TTL back on your existing Godox flashes simply by buying something from Godox with a Nikon controller. The RF communications channel on Godox flashes is universal, it's just the hot shoe and TTL language that's different on the controller. I use my TT350 to control my macro twin flashes on Fuji, and one of their "XPro" controllers or my V1 on my Z9.

Thanks for the welcome.

I'd not thought about using video for stacking. The one downside I can think of is that if using a 180-degree shutter angle, the subject blur at high magnification with a shutter speed of 1/50 for 24fps (or 1/250 @ 120fps) might not provide sufficiently sharp images, but I'm game to give it a try.

One great advantage of using diffused flash is that the speeds are ~1/5000 at low ISO with soft, controlled lighting, so both subject and user movements are frozen, leading to very sharp images.

Interestingly, both Andy Miller and I each referenced Micael Widell for his macro-flash usage; that's where I learned about the Cygnustech and KR-60G diffusers. In this video, you can see him using the Cygnustech diffuser handheld with the 0.2 sec flash intervals I'd mentioned.

 

[Len Cohen]

Agree. I tried and have been successful. It would be nice to be able to set up Focus Shifting and then have it start when I press another button while looking at the view finder.

Great observation. I have not tried FSA on the Z9 but thats cerainly a drawback. Perhaps it will be corrected in thew future. BTW I have never successfully done handheld FS

 

[Ben C]

Thanks for the helpful settings info on HHFS for macro worK. I have a Z8 and Z9 and often do HHFS for landscape work. I‘m generally shooting close-focus wide-angle with a 14 mm lens. I‘ve made Focus Stacking the first item in My Menu so I can starter it with just three button presses - Menu button, right cursor, OK to start the stack. With zero delay between shots it goes pretty quick, but no question it‘s a poor implementation. I’ve long wished Nikon would let you assign FS Start to one of the FN buttons so you could start it with one press while seeing your composition like on other cameras. When I really need to see I just do it manually by racking focus at 20 fps like someone else mentioned, but either way is less than ideal. This is probably my #1 gripe with the Z system cameras and I don’t understand why Nikon doesn’t just fix it in a firmware update. It can’t be that difficult.

I also have the OM-1 which I use as a lightweight travel system, and I have the 60 mm macro lens. To date I haven’t really done any macro shooting but I plan to this summer as we have lots of bugs in Houston! I don’t have a flash or diffuser though. I just checked B&H and the Godox you mentioned is on a flash sale for just $50 right now. Haven’t done any research on it it I’m tempted to snap one up if you say it’s a capable flash for macro work.

 

[Wildlife Bruce]

Focus Shift Shooting is a new feature for me I haven't used before. Just curious, can you perform this with a non-Nikon lens like the Tokina 100mm f2.8 Macro?

 

[pvindis]

Focus Shift Shooting is a new feature for me I haven't used before. Just curious, can you perform this with a non-Nikon lens like the Tokina 100mm f2.8 Macro?

With autofocus: Yes

 

[EricBowles]

You can also move the camera by hand to create a stack. That's what Don Kamerechka does for his snowflake macro photos. He came up with a way to support his camera on his hand and move it in very small increments.

 

[RichF]

I can hand hold a focus stack. I set up the stack (number of shots, step size, etc) and then exit focus shift, aim and focus the lens at the near point, make sure the shutter speed is fastest enough to make sure I get a sharp image, and then while holding the camera, return to the focus shift menu and start the stack.

I tend to do this several times, just in case ...

 

[pvindis]

You can also move the camera by hand to create a stack. That's what Don Kamerechka does for his snowflake macro photos. He came up with a way to support his camera on his hand and move it in very small increments.

I use WeMacro rail for macro stacking. Works perfectly both indoor and outdoor.