Indoor shooting - Issues - Z8

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Don_Logan

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Hey!

I was at a family event for Easter and brought my Z8 with my 24-120. Indoors well lit. I am shooting Aperture priority between F4 to F6. ISO seemed to be 2000 or below most of the time.

I shot 700 or so shots. Some just to fire off the 20/FPS to show some family members what it can do. That was probable 150 of those shots and do not count - so call it 400 or so shots......

A family member has a 1 year old, so it provided a great opportunity to get some random movement shots.

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Question: I only had about 100 keepers or so. I understand this is me, not the camera, but I am here to get some pointers. I was using the right (people) subject detection and was grabbing face or eye before firing off the shot.

Some thoughts after thinking about it myself:

1) my IBIS was set to Sport vs Normal - would that make a difference?

2) I was in single frame many times, does that matter though if I am getting focus lock? Or should I be in at least 10/fps? These shots were not "hey guys stop real quick and smile" but just letting them be them so I could "catch the moment"...

3) Am I overestimating IBIS? Do you really need to be still for it to work right??

Thank you for the help
 
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1) ibis, no, that shouldn't impact af, just how much stabilization you get.

3) no, ibis works pretty well. but... what is your shutter speed?

i think we need more info and maybe some examples

remember motion blur can look like missed focus and vice versa. i'm going to guess you are seeing motion blur here because you are indoors running at a reasonably slow aperture with a reasonably low iso in aperture priority mode, so it's going to push the shutter speed down.

in those cases you're going to need to be mindful what shutter speed you end up at and you are likely going to want to switch from sport to normal. it also is going to be the case where you probably do want to switch to shooting bursts since that's a strategy to combat camera shake with slow shutter speeds.

personally, i wouldn't shoot aperture priority, i'd maybe consider manual with auto iso. i also wouldn't shoot f/6 indoors, i'd leave it at max aperture of f/4. f/4 is already not optimal indoors, i wouldn't handicap yourself further.
 
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With your question about over estimating IBIS, are you taking into account it only accounts for camera movement so any subject movement still requires a fast enough shutter speed to freeze the movement?

So you were in single shot most of the time, but were you still in AF-C or did you switch to AF-S? AF-C will continue to focus as the subject moves where AF-S locks focus once acquired.

The difference between sport and normal VR shouldn’t make a difference here. Sport just adjust the settings to allow for panning the camera.
 
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Don_Logan said:
Thank you for the help
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It would really be best for you to post some examples of your missed shots. I'd guess along with the others that your shutter speed while shooting indoors might have been too low. But also were you shooting in AF-C (Continuous AF mode) as infants move quite a bit so even if the camera locked focus in AF-S mode there's a good chance your subject moved before the image was captured.

Neither choice of VR mode (Sport vs Normal) nor choosing to only shoot single frames instead of bursts should cause what you're seeing though as pointed out above Normal VR mode does give a bit more margin for camera shake but not generally enough to make a huge difference in so many missed shots.
 
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Surely the problem is shutter speed, though I await the answer from the OP. I would also would probably have had the aperture wider (or I guess with that lens, stayed at 4.0).

I think candid shots of people indoors moving around is pretty demanding, because there is never enough light .... and that lens is not that fast.

Now, before being asked, what shutter speed do people recommend for this sort of thing :) For candid shots I'd probably want 320 or better, though 250 ... maybe .... doubtless there are some wedding photographers with that answer.
 
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PhotoLover said:
Now, before being asked, what shutter speed do people recommend for this sort of thing :) For candid shots I'd probably want 320 or better, though 250 ... maybe .... doubtless there are some wedding photographers with that answer.
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it's a total knee-jerk, but i think for people moving normally, 320 sounds reasonable to me. and i don't see much percentage in trying to go ultra slow. in fact i might even do 640 if people are moving around a bit
 
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For what it's worth, my experience had actually been that my Z8 can have somewhat inconsistent focus indoors in lower lighting - and I don’t mean really terrible lighting, but even just average indoor ISO 2000ish lighting.

To expand a bit, I've found, as I think is expected based on what I've read from Thom Hogan and other more knowledgeable people, more consistent focus on higher quality lenses than other lenses. Overall, I've found the effect to be amplified when indoors.

For instance, my 70-180 tends to be pretty generally reliable outdoors, but misses sometimes indoors. Meanwhile my 85mm 1.8S loses much less consistency when moving indoors. My 40mm f2, then lowest grade of lens I have, is a lot more prone to have a miss in good outdoor light than the others and is also much more prone to hit or miss indoors than the others.

I have found that using single point instead of subject detection dramatically improves the odds of a good clean shot indoors.
 
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Still away from the computer needed, but reading through this I have some questions....I think(?) can get answered before.

1) With Aperture priority I can let the camera do everything else - right? So wouldn't it pick a higher shutter speed for me, if needed? If I had the Aperture set too high (likely - and more on this later) I thought the camera would do what is needed to assist with that mishap. Side note: ISO is set to max 6400 per a video I watched of Steve or maybe it was Hudson - forget. So that is controlled as well.


2) Aperture setting: Is there a correct way to help guess on this? Like "no higher than 5 indoors" type of advice? When is it appropriate to really close it down say to F8 or 10? Out in bright sunlight?

^ I guess some sort of catch all guide, that is not perfect, but would be "in the zone" in most cases.

I chose aperture priority because I was able to wrap my head around it best between the other settings - especially full manual. Its the one thing "I" could control, learn the camera a bit and lean into the other settings as time went on (ISO, shutter speed) and eventually switch it to full manual.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Details to come later this evening on those shots.
 
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so aperture priority means you set the aperture and the camera will try to use the shutter speed (and iso, if it is in auto mode) to get a good exposure

it’s not clear from your comments if iso was in auto mode or not. in general i would recommend only letting the camera control one (or less) settings. while you can let if control more than one, it can be hard to understand what it’s going to do and thus get a result you don’t want

in general i recommend using manual mode with auto iso as a way to both control behavior but also have the convenience of letting the camera deal with the details of exposure. so basically you can set something like f/4, 1/320s of 1/640s and let the camera find the right iso. i picked these numbers since pretty much i want to shoot wide open and doubly so for an f/4 lens which lets in less light. and 1/320 or 1/640 because i want to stop any movement, but my subjects aren’t moving very fast so i don’t need a lot

in general i kinda answered the aperture question which is to say i normally run wide open which is to say the lens opened up to let the most light in. the numbers are confusing because that means the smallest f number

while this results in the shallowest depth of field (least amount in focus at the same time), this generally isn’t a problem, especially at f/4
 
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oh, and i don’t mean to pick a fight with Steve, but personally i wouldn’t set a limit on upper iso. keep in mind he’s optimizing for these perfect images, and that’s not the only type of thing one might want. what happens is if you hit that max number you just won’t be able to make the exposure any brighter. and if your image is too dark, you simply won’t be capturing data in the shadows.

there’s a lot to unpack in there, but basically sometimes you just want to take the shot, even if the result will be grainy
 
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Don_Logan said:
Still away from the computer needed, but reading through this I have some questions....I think(?) can get answered before.

1) With Aperture priority I can let the camera do everything else - right? So wouldn't it pick a higher shutter speed for me, if needed? If I had the Aperture set too high (likely - and more on this later) I thought the camera would do what is needed to assist with that mishap. Side note: ISO is set to max 6400 per a video I watched of Steve or maybe it was Hudson - forget. So that is controlled as well.


2) Aperture setting: Is there a correct way to help guess on this? Like "no higher than 5 indoors" type of advice? When is it appropriate to really close it down say to F8 or 10? Out in bright sunlight?

^ I guess some sort of catch all guide, that is not perfect, but would be "in the zone" in most cases.

I chose aperture priority because I was able to wrap my head around it best between the other settings - especially full manual. Its the one thing "I" could control, learn the camera a bit and lean into the other settings as time went on (ISO, shutter speed) and eventually switch it to full manual.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Details to come later this evening on those shots.
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I agree with what John is saying but I’ll try to add to it.

1) when you use aperture priority you are telling the camera what aperture to set the lens at and letting it control the shutter speed to get a correct exposure, meaning not too bright, not too dark. The camera doesn’t analyze the image to determine what shutter speed is required to freeze the motion; even if it did it wouldn’t be able to determine what you were attempting to achieve. For example, maybe you were panning with a faster moving subject, wanting a slower shutter speed to achieve motion blur to show the movement. Primarily when deciding on aperture, think of how much depth of field do you want in your photos (Do you want to blur the background or have more in focus.) Achieving a faster shutter speed may require a larger aperture to let more light in (smaller number).

It sounds like you were using auto ISO as well. This tells the camera to adjust the ISO level to help achieve the correct exposure. In these settings were you set the max value to be 6400 you can also choose a minimum shutter speed. If set to auto, it will base this on your lens focal length. So if you are shooting at 24mm your shutter speed the camera will select might be 1/30 which will be much too slow to freeze motion and you will get motion blur.

2) There really isn’t any set guidance I could provide on what aperture to use based just on available light. There are many factors that go into decision which is appropriate for a given situation.

I would also recommend trying to use manual mode with auto iso. Try this for situations that aren’t important until you get an idea of when to use what. I would highly recommend the book “Understanding Exposure” by Bryan Peterson. He goes through in detail, with lots of photo samples demonstrating the effects the different settings have on the photo and how to achieve the creative look you’re going for. He Does a great job of simplifying it and making it easy to understand.
 
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Don_Logan said:
1) With Aperture priority I can let the camera do everything else - right? So wouldn't it pick a higher shutter speed for me, if needed? If I had the Aperture set too high (likely - and more on this later) I thought the camera would do what is needed to assist with that mishap. Side note: ISO is set to max 6400 per a video I watched of Steve or maybe it was Hudson - forget. So that is controlled as well.
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As posted above, shooting in Aperture Priority just means that as you set the aperture (f/stop) the camera will pick a corresponding shutter speed for exposure reasons. The camera has no idea what subjects you're trying to capture nor if the camera is supported or not or even what effect you want (i.e. freezing all motion for a crisp shot or allowing some blur for artistic reasons). So yes, the camera picks shutter speed but even if it helps you get the exposure correct it may be way off in terms of freezing motion and getting sharp, crisp images.

Also as posted above there's also the question of whether you were shooting with manually set ISO or also allowing the camera to pick the ISO setting by shooting in Auto ISO. Personally I agree with John above that unless you've got a real good grasp on how exposure works and how Aperture Priority with Auto ISO works I'd stick with one camera set variable at a time and NOT run Aperture Priority with Auto ISO. That said if you do run that mode there's an option in the menu to set a minimum shutter speed which you might set to something like 1/250" or higher for twitchy human subjects (e.g. small children) or perhaps quite a bit faster if your subjects move a lot or if you happen to be shooting with long focal length lenses (not that likely indoors).

Shooting Manual mode with Auto ISO is a pretty good way to go as you have direct control over the two most important creative settings (aperture and shutter speed) and within reason you can let the camera adjust ISO for exposure reasons. So you can set aperture for desired depth of field (though shooting candids indoors I'd leave the lens wide open more often than not and not stop down aperture at all unless absolutely needed for depth of field reasons) and you can set a shutter speed fast enough to have a good chance of stopping action which depends a bit on what kind of action and whether you're shooting a wide angle or telephoto lens. You still should keep an eye on what ISO the camera is then choosing as if it gets sky high you might end up with a bunch of very noisy photos and choose to take a bit more risk with shutter speed or depth of field to keep ISO from climbing quite so high.

If shooting Auto ISO or even when manually setting ISO I wouldn't hesitate to go to at least 12,800 with a Z8 if not double that but that assumes I'm willing to use some of the modern noise reduction tools in post processing. That's especially true for shooting indoors without flash where I'd much rather have a bit of noise to deal with in post rather than an out of focus motion blurred shot that can't really be fixed. If you're not sure what you'll tolerate for ISO then you might start by setting no ISO cap and shooting a bunch and then seeing what you're happy with but in my experience the Z8 can deliver great images at much higher ISO than 6400.

Don_Logan said:
2) Aperture setting: Is there a correct way to help guess on this? Like "no higher than 5 indoors" type of advice? When is it appropriate to really close it down say to F8 or 10? Out in bright sunlight?
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Aperture should really be chosen for depth of field (DoF) reasons. If you want more of a portrait look with the subject in good focus but the background less crisp to completely blurry to make the subject jump out of the frame then you want a wide (small f/number) aperture. Usually when going for that look, like we do for most single subject wildlife photography, we'll shoot wide open and not stop down at all. This is a big reason photographers spend so much money on fast lenses (low wide open f/ number like f/2.8 or even f/1.4 lenses). If you have more than one subject in your frame and they're not at exactly the same distance from the camera then stopping down gives you more DoF and the ability to keep subjects at slightly different distances from the camera crisp and sharp. If you really want everything in the frame in focus like you might with landscape photos then you want stop down even more.

Since you were shooting in Aperture Priority mode your choice of aperture also impacted shutter speed so you might think of aperture as a tool to choose shutter speed or to get the exposure correct. From that perspective lower f/numbers mean faster shutter speeds when shooting in aperture priority mode and stopping down will slow down shutter speeds but that's really a consequence of shooting in aperture priority mode and not really the prime reason to make aperture adjustments. That said, I recommend thinking of aperture in terms of its prime creative impact which is DoF and then realizing that as you stop down for more DoF you'll either have to slow down shutter speed, increase ISO or do both depending on how much light you have to work with.

Bottom line, there's not a lot of light indoors in most places when you shoot without additional light (e.g. a flash or studio lights) so we'll tend to shoot wide open (low f/number) and try to set up shots where we don't need a ton of DoF. If we want to do group portraits indoors or indoor architecture work where we want everything in focus we'll often stop down for the DoF, slow the shutter speed way down and shoot from a tripod or rest the camera on some solid support (e.g. table top) but if people are in the photo they should stay very still during the shot so it's not a great action solution. Outdoors on most days there's more light to work with so then aperture is normally chosen for DoF reasons, shutter speed chooses for stopping or blurring motion reasons and ISO adjusted accordingly to still get the exposure we're after which could be Auto ISO where the camera manages that last bit.
 
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All: Thank you very much for the replies. Tons to unpack here. My mind = 🤯


AF-C since day one and watching the video below has always been on and will remain that way.

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The keepers (and I am sure they are not perfect) were ranged from1/80 to 1/125...some of the others were in that range too, but I can tell by the pic, that in that moment, while there was some movement, there was not a ton - likely why they were "keepers"

Again, this is a range, but more or less as follows:

-1/40 - 1/125 meaning: for the most part too slow (a blanket statement per the replies here) as most were thrown out. And Dave, you already did help a bit by saying "1/250 with twitchy creatures" that told me something right there. See ,I have 0 clue, no perspective on any of the #'s. So let me ask, when am I using 1/32,000? or 1" (opposite spectrums)? Would 1" be astro? and 1/32,000 a humming bird?

-5 and 6.5 F Why? Because, I thought this was a control variable for light (hey you're letting too much light in close it down a bit - was my thinking). thanks Dave and others for more clarity on that.

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FYI: My settings mirror Hudson Henrys setup video for the Z8/9 almost 1:1 the 1.3 hour one he made I followed that and took about 3 hours pausing etc to get things right. I have since messed with some of the controls to my liking but the "constants" are mostly what he has setup. This camera is far from factory from that standpoint. I should have prefaced this initially - my apologies.

Why I was using MODE A: I saw it in a YT video ( ^ not that one) not sure who's, but I thought controlling that variable made sense. You guys explained this above better - thanks

Changes made since writing this:


MODE: M

I can now change the shutter speed with the back wheel and aperture with the front.

Auto ISO sensitivity control: ON (it was always this)
ISO Settings: Max sensitivity: 12,800 from 6,400
Min shutter speed: Auto - I can move it to 1/250, but now I am in control of that, so is there a need?
 
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From what I can tell:

For the most part ALWAYS shoot F4 (all this goes down to) UNLESS I am in great light and want not only the subject but the background to be in focus as well. Right?

Let me paint a scenario and you tell me if the concept here is fairly sound:

I am walking through a park. I see a flower. I shoot F4 and 1/100....I continue walking and see a duck in the pond cruising around I keep it F4 and shoot 1/250....I continue walking and see a duck in flight coming at me. I keep it F4 and go to 1/640( or something???) - there is now a disconnect there on where to shoot past the "creature twitching about"
 
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Don_Logan said:
From what I can tell:

For the most part ALWAYS shoot F4
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basically, yes
Don_Logan said:
(all this goes down to) UNLESS I am in great light and want not only the subject but the background to be in focus as well. Right?
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kinda, but in reality you probably won’t really be able to keep both in focus so this is more theoretical than real. from a practical perspective pick what you want in focus

Don_Logan said:
Let me paint a scenario and you tell me if the concept here is fairly sound:

I am walking through a park. I see a flower. I shoot F4 and 1/100....I continue walking and see a duck in the pond cruising around I keep it F4 and shoot 1/250....I continue walking and see a duck in flight coming at me. I keep it F4 and go to 1/640( or something???) - there is now a disconnect there on where to shoot past the "creature twitching about"
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yes that’s the general idea, but probably most of those speeds should be substantially faster, maybe flower aside

let’s say something like 1/100, 1/640, 1/1600
 
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....And beyond less light coming in, would there be any reason at all to slow the shutter speed down in the same situation? assuming light was fine, the scenario below:


Kid is running around have it at 1/640......20 seconds later someone says "hey take a pick of me" and they pose = zero movement.....keep it at 1/640 or is it best to lower it?

^ because I am thinking in the same "party" scenario above, why not just keep it at the shutter speed that would cover all movement variables for the said event?

OR

I am at the park like I said above - great light.

Well, I know I *might* see the BIF, so keep it at 1/1600 for the flower too
 
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Don_Logan said:
....And beyond less light coming in, would there be any reason at all to slow the shutter speed down in the same situation? assuming light was fine, the scenario below:
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think of shooting at unusually slow shutter speed as a skill you need to cultivate. so unless you’ve done that or are just practicing, just leave it at a safe speed

Don_Logan said:
Kid is running around have it at 1/640......20 seconds later someone says "hey take a pick of me" and they pose = zero movement.....keep it at 1/640 or is it best to lower it?
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this is mostly depending on how much time you have and how comfortable you are making adjustments on the fly. don’t feel compelled to take the time to get the perfect settings, especially for these casuals moments. if they are asking you to do a portrait for them, sure, that’s the time to take a bit of extra time

also: kids running… more like 1/1250, 1/1600 😆

Don_Logan said:
^ because I am thinking in the same "party" scenario above, why not just keep it at the shutter speed that would cover all movement variables for the said event?
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yes, totally
 
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Sounds like you're on the right track. A few thoughts:

Don_Logan said:
So let me ask, when am I using 1/32,000? or 1" (opposite spectrums)? Would 1" be astro? and 1/32,000 a humming bird?
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Shutter speed can span a wide range as there are so many different things to photograph and different effects. For instance since you mentioned astrophotography if I'm shooting something like Milky Way shots from a tripod (no motorized tracking mount) I'll often shoot 15" to 30" exposures depending on the focal length of the lens I'm using and how much star streaking I'm willing to tolerate. For something like moving water I want to blur I might choose a shutter speed around 1/15" to 1/30" or so. On the other end of the spectrum I might go up to 1/4000" to 1/6400" for small very fast flying birds but it's rare I need faster shutter speeds than that.

The key is that there's not one or just a couple of shutter speeds that make sense, it depends on things like the subject, the focal length of the lens you're using (generally faster shutter speeds for longer focal length lenses) and how much or how little blur you want. Sometimes blur really helps a photo sometimes we don't want any blur. Even a hummingbird, sometimes it's nice to have wing blur and crisp eyes and body and other times it's nice to freeze all wing motion (a flash can help there more than a fast shutter speed alone).

But yes, faster shutter speeds to stop faster action, slower shutter speeds to gather more light (e.g. astro) or to allow for some motion blur (e.g. blurring moving water, blurring rain drops as they fall, blurring backgrounds as you pan smoothly with running or flying wildlife subjects).

Don_Logan said:
Min shutter speed: Auto - I can move it to 1/250, but now I am in control of that, so is there a need?
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The minimum shutter speed setting applies when shooting Aperture Priority but doesn't apply when shooting Manual with Auto ISO
Don_Logan said:
For the most part ALWAYS shoot F4 (all this goes down to) UNLESS I am in great light and want not only the subject but the background to be in focus as well. Right?
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Shoot f/4 (or wide open on any lens) when you want single subjects in focus and are ok with other parts of the scene being blurry or completely out of focus. Great choice for human or wildlife portraits but not a great choice for scenic landscapes, shots with a lot of folks you want to keep in focus. But yes it gathers a lot of light which can be very helpful indoors or outside in low light conditions.

Don_Logan said:
I am walking through a park. I see a flower. I shoot F4 and 1/100....I continue walking and see a duck in the pond cruising around I keep it F4 and shoot 1/250....I continue walking and see a duck in flight coming at me. I keep it F4 and go to 1/640( or something???)
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Well that sort of works as a starting point but as with all of this it depends. If the flower is at a moderate distance and it's not a macro shot then sure you might get away with shooting wide open. But as you fill more of the frame with that flower by getting closer physically or shooting with a longer lens you'll find very little of the flower will be sharp unless you stop down. That happens at higher magnification when shooting with long lenses or shooting macro or subjects approaching macro but for a casual snapshot of a flower that doesn't fill the frame you might do all right with a wide open shot.

As you acquire and shoot with longer lenses you'll often find you need to increase shutter speeds to reduce camera shake even with VR enabled so for the duck with say your 24-120mm, 1/250" might work if the duck is just floating fairly still but you'll likely want to bump that shutter speed up if you pick up a 300mm, 400mm, 600mm or longer lens in the future and take photos of ducks with it. And for flying birds, especially if they're flying in your direction shutter speeds up in the 1/2500" to 1/4000" range tend to yield a lot more sharp images though with practice panning shots where the bird is flying perpendicular to you can work at much slower shutter speeds for artistic effect.

What you've suggested isn't a bad starting point, but the camera has such a wide range of possible settings because there are so many different photo situations and creative photographers find ways to use fast and slow shutter speeds, wide open and stopped down apertures for a wide range of creative outcomes and it's not as simple as one or two settings for every situation.

Get out and keep shooting, maybe watch some educational videos or read some good books including @Steve's ebooks and practice and the wide range of camera settings should start to make more sense.
 
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example. you’ll note the shutter is 1/1600s, i’m set up for shooting action, this is a lull and i catch an opportunity for a candid. if i would have stopped to dial down the shutter i would have missed it, and it wouldn’t have substantially improved the image. if i had decided to lower the shutter, i would have taken this shot FIRST, then dialed down. a shot on the card is worth more than a miss with better settings
https://flic.kr/p/2pecgcv
 
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