Keep it simple on my Z8… 1.4 teleconverter or DX mode

[macwalter]

You won’t get any closer in DX mode. You are just giving up pixels but the final result after cropping is identical. You will save some disk space and maybe a better focus lock although I have found that to be only on occasion. I shoot fx almost always in case the bird does something unexpected and with the larger frame your chances go up to catch a good action shot. If you use PS you can crop and choose to delete unwanted pixels. I just do a lot of culling.

 

[Chappy]

Over the last few days I have spent some time thinking about this thread and my use of the 1.4 teleconverter and using Dx mode on the Z8 and Z9. As I have stated before, I have my movie record button porgrammed to toggle between fx and dx modes. Monday morning offered me a great photo opportunity to help me describe why I like the ability to toggle between fx and dx mode instead of the 1.4 teleconverter.

In the past I have felt that the 1.4 teleconverter has slowed my AF acquisition and tracking with the 600pf on a Z8 or Z9.

Back to Monday morning, while checking the emergence of my grain sorghum I came across a pair of Nighthawks which we call Bullbats around these parts. They took off and began to put on a private little airshow for me. I grabbed my Z9 with the 600pf and started shooting. When the birds were further away from me i went to dx mode where i was getting better AF than in Fx mode and allowed me to reduce the cropping in post. When the birds flew closer I went back to FX mode and be able to follow thier flight closer. These birds are very erratic in their flight and can be tough to follow. Essentially toggling between fx and dx mode gave me more flexibility and allowed me to track their flights better.

Keep in mind that this little air show only lasted about 5 minutes so had i taken time to put on the 1.4 converter I would have missed many of the shots i took that morning. Many times when I capture images on the farm, it is spur of the moment thing. From seeing a coyote running in front of the tractor to a hawk circling to dive on a rabbit or mouse there is little time other than to grab the camera and start shooting. Most of the time I keep the Z9 with the 600pf in a holster bag ready to pull out and shoot.

One other note, before the 600pf came out, I had the 500pf and the 100-400z lense. The majority of the time i went with the 500pf due to that extra 100 mm and the focus speed of the 500pf over the 100-400.

Shot in FX mode and about a 50% crop in post on first two images.

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Shot in dx mode with small crop

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[Chappy]

You won’t get any closer in DX mode. You are just giving up pixels but the final result after cropping is identical. You will save some disk space and maybe a better focus lock although I have found that to be only on occasion. I shoot fx almost always in case the bird does something unexpected and with the larger frame your chances go up to catch a good action shot. If you use PS you can crop and choose to delete unwanted pixels. I just do a lot of culling.

If you look at the post below yours I have tried to explain the best I can. i will add that my keeper rate on the pair in flight was higher in dx mode than in fx mode.

Its not always about the pixels but about the way we shoot and what we do to get the best images we can through the use of the tools we call cameras and lenses.

 

[JWest]

I have my movie record button porgrammed to toggle between fx and dx modes.

My movie button is to recall a shooting settings but I have the FX/DX on the convex front button FN1 on the Z8 and Z9, same button location for using both cameras in the same way. I also use canon 50% of the time so its convex front FN button is also the same thing on the R1 and the single button on the R5ii. These are all the same thing and location.

Not to get too off topic, the Z8/9 I have the upper/back wheel/dial as aperture and front for shutter speed, and now exactly the same on the Canon bodies. It makes for a much more seamless use of them all.

 

[arbitrage]

DX mode vs FX mode:
Pros: Increases effectiveness of Eye-AF, increases buffer depth, decreases file size/card usage.
Cons: May result in cut off wings if subject all of a sudden too close. Less freedom to keep up with erratic BIF direction changes.

So I think there are lots of good reasons to use DX mode over FX when you know you aren't going to fill more than the DX frame with your composition

When we compare DX to TC things usually end up a wash when it comes to IQ. But AF is often better without the TC. I sometimes prefer DX, sometimes prefer TC. Usually depends on the lens. There are only a few lenses that I really prefer TC over DX and those are f/4 and f/2.8 primes but even then some of those I prefer to shoot the bare lens and crop. Really the only lens I am fully confident in using TCs over DX in almost all situations is the Sony 300GM. I wouldn't even bother with a TC on a zoom lens unless it is something like a built-in one on the EF 200-400 or F 180-400.

 

[mathjak107]

z8 with nikon 600mm pf f6.3 and 1.4fx

 

[The Man in the High Castle]

What about DX and 1.4 converter?

 

[mathjak107]

What about DX and 1.4 converter?

the above i posted are both dx mode and the tc1.4. i tried to fill the frame as much as possible

 

[macwalter]

DX or fx makes no difference in terms of IQ. It’s the same sensor.

 

[mathjak107]

DX or fx makes no difference in terms of IQ. It’s the same sensor.

but different pixel counts … the tc has more pixels making up the photo but the quality may suffer a bit from the glass , the dx mode has less pixels but the quality may be better without the extra glass.

there are times one may look better then the other

 

[macwalter]

I’m assuming the subject is the same distance in which case it makes no difference . You are not zooming in in DX mode. You are just using a smaller part of the sensor, so less wasted pixels on subject etc. but when you crop to 100% it is identical. You can crop much deeper in fx than DX. DX makes the image appear larger to the eye in the viewfinder. So if I were to shoot a bird in fx using whatever lens I have than shoot the same bird using DX in the same situation the image would be identical in terms of size,IQ iso etc. just that it will look smaller in fx until you crop accordingly.

 

[Chappy]

I’m assuming the subject is the same distance in which case it makes no difference . You are not zooming in in DX mode. You are just using a smaller part of the sensor, so less wasted pixels on subject etc. but when you crop to 100% it is identical. You can crop much deeper in fx than DX. DX makes the image appear larger to the eye in the viewfinder. So if I were to shoot a bird in fx using whatever lens I have than shoot the same bird using DX in the same situation the image would be identical in terms of size,IQ iso etc. just that it will look smaller in fx until you crop accordingly.

Technically, yes. However, I and many others didn't buy the 600pf for mostly static shots. I bought it for wildlife and sports and AF is better and faster in Dx mode with the Z8 or Z9. Maybe my style of shooting is not the norm but if I am shooting action and the subject is half the frame or less, I get better shots and more keepers shooting in Dx mode than i do in Fx mode with or without a teleconverter. That is not due to the sensor or the lens but about the AF functions and software.

 

[macwalter]

I guess to each his own. I shoot mostly action and wildlife and I want the maximum amount of frame to work with so fewer clipped wings. I am also absolutely certain that DX mode will not give any better IQ unless you are having difficulty getting a good focus lock in FX. I find this to rarely a problem for me. I shoot mostly the 600pf and less so the 400f4.5. On the z8. for what it’s worth I’ve been shooting BIF since my old d7k came out and am quite happy with the z cameras.

 

[JWest]

I guess to each his own. I shoot mostly action and wildlife and I want the maximum amount of frame to work with so fewer clipped wings. I am also absolutely certain that DX mode will not give any better IQ unless you are having difficulty getting a good focus lock in FX. I find this to rarely a problem for me. I shoot mostly the 600pf and less so the 400f4.5. On the z8. for what it’s worth I’ve been shooting BIF since my old d7k came out and am quite happy with the z cameras.

I fully agree with what you're saying above but I think the entire point of this thread OP was to compare DX with FX+1.4x, from one position, same subject, etc. It must also be assumed that wing clips, versatility, etc, are not part of the comparison because every situation is different.

I have known about "in camera cropping" I.E DX, or on canon their 1.6x, which also results in an actually cropped RAW file vs simply showing a virtual ratio. I actually have 3:4 set in most of my cameras as framing lines to be sure that if I care about a classic 8x10 ratio, it's inside those lines.

Now, I poo-pooed all talk of in camera crop modes for all of the years since it was born...until a month ago, when I realized that in some situations, the focusing IS in fact better in DX when subject is tiny and/or far away, and of course knowing that the final would be well within the crop mode zone anyway.

The examples on this thread are not comparative enough for me to make a judgement on the IQ though between the same resulting image area from DX vs FX+1.4x. My gut would bet $ on optical though.

Of course none of it matters if an image is only viewed at iphone or ipad screen size, or even an 8x10 print. I just posted a shot of a simple robin on a 600mm f4 lens + 2x at f11 which is stopped down x1 for good DOF on it because it was mostly filling the frame/ not too distant per lens.

I SHOULD have also done a bare 600 with internal TC shot and a few DX versions to compare later because the light and distance was perfect for this topic. Far enough to matter but good enough light and air quality to be solid if shot correctly.

 

[Len Shepherd]

My question is based on using a 180-600 on a Z8 or a Z9. The choices are shooting in DX mode or using a 1.4 converter and staying in FX mode.
Forget about iso, shutter speed, f stop, conditions, barametric pressure, sun angle, etc.
Thanks,
Vinny

There are 4 things to consider that you may have overlooked.

1/ The first is what standard (perhaps as in feather detail separation) you as opposed to another photographer are prepared to accept?

This detail leads to a lot of "debate" !

2/ cropping in post to 19 MP (as already mentioned the same as selecting DX mode) reduces resolution and feather detail by an obvious amount.
You distinctly reduce feather detail separation - and any negative effect of camera shake without cropping becomes more severe after cropping.

That several body/lens combinations still retain enough feather detail for many photographic needs after cropping or using a TC is IMO a separate topic.

Getting closer or a longer focal length often gets better results.

3/ using a 1.4 x TC works a bit differently.
It reduces resolution by less than cropping to 19 MP, but with the negative trade offs the extra lens elements reduce contrast a bit, AF performance is reduced and camera shake potential is increased.

There is the positive bonus that more pixels on any one part of the subject help create more subject detail separation of resolution or colour separation - though still below what is achievable by either getting closer to better fill the frame or using a longer prime.

The contrast reduction with a TC is likely why some prefer to switch from potentially higher resolution with a TC to cropping when the subject is low contrast.

4/ remarkably good though the 180–600 is at its price point; being a zoom without Nano coating it has a bit lower contrast and a bit lower resolution than the 600 mm F 6 .3 and obviously lower than the 600 mm f4.

Using a modern lens bare is often more than satisfactory for many purposes.
Even so some photographers are likely to be less than fully satisfied sooner when cropping or using a TC with the 180-600 - because of the moderately lower resolution and contrast starting point threshold compared to the best primes.

My suggestion is starting by cropping saves around £/$550 for the 1.4 TC - making it the cheaper starting point.

Then perhaps save for either the Z 1.4 TC or the moderate aperture 400mm, 600mm and 800mm Z primes.

With good technique the primes should produce more satisfactory results (whatever your standard) than a 180-600 image either cropped to 19 MP or with a TC - except perhaps when you need to zoom !