Lightweight Composite on lenses?

[Lee R]

Not to be a geek about this but not all plastics are composites, and composites are not necessarily plastics. Take your helmet for example, it could be a composite (Aramid/PVB) or made out of ultra-high density polyethylene which is not. The individual who was hit by an AK round was indeed fortunate as the best helmets are level III and designed to stop shrapnel and smaller rounds. A 7.62x39 straight on will easily penetrate helmets unless he had an additional SLAAP plate. If not, perhaps the round skimmed or was deflected?

Ops-Core FAST RF1 High Cut Helmet System

The FAST RF1 helmet, the newest addition to the Ops-Core FAST helmet family, is the most innovative and advanced headborne protection on the market. The lightest weight helmet system to offer protection from 7.62x39mm projectiles, the FAST RF1 seamlessly integrates with Ops-Core total headborne...

shop.gentexcorp.com

It’s rated for rifle rounds and similar to the one I saw that stopped a round in a close range engagement, like across a room close. The ACH i had as a soldier was not as good as the current helmets. Helmet technology, like camera materials really made some giant leaps in the last 20 years.

The best are rated against 7.62x51 ball ammo.

There’s more than one example of the older ECH type stopping rifle rounds at very close range. I don’t think prior to that they reliably would, like the ACH or the generation prior to that one the PASGT.

Here’s an example from a ECH hit at 20 feet from a rifle, soldier lived and was functional right after being hit. They didn’t say if it was the 7.62x39 or the 7.62x54 that hit him, but one of those. The helmet I saw was hit by a 7.62x39 and the guy had a good lump from it. the damage looked similar to the one in the picture below but he was hit in the front just above the lip.

Soldier Gets Back Battered Helmet That Saved His Life During Insider Attack

The bullet tore a large hole in the ballistic material, but the Enhanced Combat Helmet (ECH) stopped the round.

www.military.com

Anyway composite/plastic what ever this stuff is, it’s amazing and I’m totally happy to have lenses or cameras made out of Similar materials!

 

[bleirer]

This is getting way off of photography.

 

[Lee R]

We’re back to photography, just a good example of how tough modern materials are.

Would anyone here by ok with a 600mm TC that was made of something other than metal? I think we established there’s plenty tough enough materials out there these days. It really comes down to the psychology of things being made from other durable materials vs the established feeling that metal=quality, plastic=cheap.

 

[David Berry]

Would anyone here be ok with a 600mm TC that was made of something other than metal?

No problem at all.

My longest lens is 800mm, and I have never checked to find out what its ‘barrel’ is made of: I’m simply not concerned, other than in a “Oh, isn’t that interesting!” sort of way.

 

[rgbiv]

Would anyone here by ok with a 600mm TC that was made of something other than metal?

Definitely.

 

[hef19898]

The current Z lens line up isn't all metal anyway.

 

[fcotterill]

The weight of exotic telephotos has been pruned in each update from AFD > G > E iterations... To today's S Line primes, even though each has an integral TC. Compare the 400 f2.8 and 600 f4 Nikkors since the mid 1990s.
Changes in the optical design probably helped, including fluorite elements (since E type). However, the older telephotos were primarily aluminium alloys, prior to the recent use of what Nikon calls a Mg composite in the chassis.
The light hoods of the E series exotics are carbon fiber apparently - hence their chilling cost. The Z Telephotos I've used appear to use polycarbonate in the hoods, eg 800 PF

 

[John Navitsky]

if folks wanted to get a feel for weight differences, the 50mm retro lens covered in this article is offered in aluminum , brass and titanium and i think the weights were 1lb, 1.4lb, and 1.1lb, respectively (from memory)

 

[ajrmd]

Ops-Core FAST RF1 High Cut Helmet System

The FAST RF1 helmet, the newest addition to the Ops-Core FAST helmet family, is the most innovative and advanced headborne protection on the market. The lightest weight helmet system to offer protection from 7.62x39mm projectiles, the FAST RF1 seamlessly integrates with Ops-Core total headborne...

shop.gentexcorp.com

It’s rated for rifle rounds and similar to the one I saw that stopped a round in a close range engagement, like across a room close. The ACH i had as a soldier was not as good as the current helmets. Helmet technology, like camera materials really made some giant leaps in the last 20 years.

The best are rated against 7.62x51 ball ammo.

There’s more than one example of the older ECH type stopping rifle rounds at very close range. I don’t think prior to that they reliably would, like the ACH or the generation prior to that one the PASGT.

Here’s an example from a ECH hit at 20 feet from a rifle, soldier lived and was functional right after being hit. They didn’t say if it was the 7.62x39 or the 7.62x54 that hit him, but one of those. The helmet I saw was hit by a 7.62x39 and the guy had a good lump from it. the damage looked similar to the one in the picture below but he was hit in the front just above the lip.

Soldier Gets Back Battered Helmet That Saved His Life During Insider Attack

The bullet tore a large hole in the ballistic material, but the Enhanced Combat Helmet (ECH) stopped the round.

www.military.com

Anyway composite/plastic what ever this stuff is, it’s amazing and I’m totally happy to have lenses or cameras made out of Similar materials!

I haven't seen this particular helmet, though it's a two stage so likely the SLAAP is now the integrated liner and provides the additional ballistic protection. Back to cameras/lenses.

 

[jeffnles1]

We’re back to photography, just a good example of how tough modern materials are.

Would anyone here by ok with a 600mm TC that was made of something other than metal? I think we established there’s plenty tough enough materials out there these days. It really comes down to the psychology of things being made from other durable materials vs the established feeling that metal=quality, plastic=cheap.

This question is kind of what I was trying to get to when I started the thread. Personally, I would be happy with alternate materials if they were tough and durable. Not just lens barrels but camera bodies. I know the stuff we've been talking about (Military equipment stuff) takes a beating far beyond what any of our cameras would take. However, there is still that perception "plastic = cheap".

 

[David Berry]

There is still that perception "plastic = cheap".

Do those of us with Swarovski binoculars share this 'perception'?

"Ugh, wish these Swarovskis weren't so plasticky! They feel so cheap!"

 

[hef19898]

This question is kind of what I was trying to get to when I started the thread. Personally, I would be happy with alternate materials if they were tough and durable. Not just lens barrels but camera bodies. I know the stuff we've been talking about (Military equipment stuff) takes a beating far beyond what any of our cameras would take. However, there is still that perception "plastic = cheap".

You know what the Z8 and Z6iii are made of, right?

 

[jeffnles1]

Do those of us with Swarovski binoculars share this 'perception'?

"Ugh, wish these Swarovskis weren't so plasticky! They feel so cheap!"

I agree with you. I have several things that are "plastic" and are anything but cheap. I'm just quoting objections I've heard and I think much of those objections are uninformed. I have absolutely zero hesitation with modern "plastics" for structural elements.

I don't have Swarovski binocs but I do have a pair of Vortex binocs that are quite rugged and after numerous times being banged around on hiking trips, being tossed in the back of the car, used on fishing trips and carried in the field still work as well as the day I bought them. They don't look new any more but they are study and work well. Oh, they are "plastic" to. .
Jeff

 

[jeffnles1]

You know what the Z8 and Z6iii are made of, right?

Absolutely, I know it. Just there is a perception from some that Plastic = cheap. I think much of that perception is unwarranted and based on a perception that no longer holds true.

 

[fcotterill]

As a concept 'plastic' has become an obsolescent, if not obsolete, moniker that's grasped at to describe a diversity of synthetic materials developed by material scientists and used in modern industries by engineers.

21st century Ceramics are another category of materials far advanced in modern industry beyond the quaint concept of crockery.

 

[fcotterill]

There was forum hullabaloo about the imagined foibles of Sereebo some months ago - at the Z8 launch - when Nikon marketing copy mentioned the material....

Sereebo avoids major challenges in precision engineering, but it has many of the advantages of carbon fiber composites; especially for a company such as Nikon. It has decades of expertise in precision injection molding of optical elements etc, and is becoming a leader in robotics (including in its factories).

If these modern composites are sufficiently durable, lighter and perform in the photographic products then all the better for photographers in addition, I find it fascinating to read authoritative explanations about these new materials

Sereebo® P | PRODUCTS & SOLUTIONS | TEIJIN MOBILITY ONLINE

teijin-mobility.com

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/05/20190508-teijin.html

Sereebo CFRTP sheets: "Saving the Earth"

Teijin’s carbon fiber/thermoplastic material, used in the CarbonPro pickup box, was developed with reducing CO2 emissions in mind.

www.compositesworld.com

 

[O]

Absolutely, I know it. Just there is a perception from some that Plastic = cheap. I think much of that perception is unwarranted and based on a perception that no longer holds true.

Cost of manufacturing is often a key consideration

Speed of manufacturing another
Tooling for manufacturing another
Tolerance to recycled material content levels
Tolerance to blended recycled material content levels
Break down rate in landfills when disposed of
Carbon credits achieved
Durability of use
Weight for handling and lower distribution costs.

Most significantly the final cost of manufacturing and above all the different amount of energy used for manufacturing for different materials.
Different materials may differ in cost raw material wise, but could save in production speed or distribution costs being less weight, cooling of steel or aluminum often takes more cooling time or processing than say plastics or composite designs therefore providing gains in another way.

The above is a range of key considerations that dictate design production appeal and cost of any product.
New technology today can produce end products virtually to meet any standard of durability needed for any application.
Design is the key.
As to lenses, the heaviest part is often the glass elements, forging or casting elements even in so called resin or optical plastics is getting better and better, in cases rivaling even glass.

A hypothesis is with glass they often have coatings applied, with resin/plastic/composite like lens elements can even be blended in the mix ?

Manufacturing with aluminum or steel being more expensive to produce items with is a reasonable assumption.

Modern plastics are very durable depending on how its manufactured or designed.

Only an opinion

 

[rgbiv]

A hypothesis is with glass they often have coatings applied, with resin/plastic/composite like lens elements can even be blended in the mix ?

Interesting thought ... I suspect not as the coatings are either to protect the element surface or to reduce reflections caused by the difference in the refractive index of the air and the lens.
Just my guess.

 

[O]

Interesting thought ... I suspect not as the coatings are either to protect the element surface or to reduce reflections caused by the difference in the refractive index of the air and the lens.
Just my guess.

Resin if may call it ? in optical quality has come a long way now, small light thin cost effective, optically excellent.
They can make full elements the same colour from 1% to 100% tint, who knows where it will all end up or be used.
The camera industry is under the pump, lowering costs, price points, size and weight is becoming more critical.
Videography is growing in the sky or in motion, drones Go Pros etc etc.

Necessity is the mother of invention LOL

Some interesting times ahead.

Only an opinion