Low hit rate - birds in flight (or dog in this case) Nikon D610

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JohnChristensenDK

JohnChristensenDK

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Hi,
I'm new to the forum, but have been following Steve for some time and do also have most e-books about Nikon AF etc.
I own a Nikon D610 and a 200-500/5.6 - and just upgraded with an "old" Nikkor 400 mm/2.8 (non VR)
To the problem: My hit rate is too low!
I have set up (I hope) my camera with all Steve's good advise and the camera and lenses should be OK. Unfortunately this allow only one more cause: ME!
Trying to find the fault I took my 70-200mm/2.8 (VR) and my son's dog for a run - the result is not good.
I have the camera set with BBAF - I point at the head/eye and press focus/BBAF - and then the release - after 5-7 shots none of the photos are real sharp - attached the best one?
I shoot in RAW (Large)
In my opimion part of the shot IS sharp - but aiming at the head why isen't the head sharp? Will the AF take a focus point somewhere else or how does it work - I have been through all +500 pages in the book, but what is wrong!?
BTW If the dog (or birds) is sitting still I have no problem with sharp images :)

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While your shutter could be a little faster, it's probably fast enough. I'd try to boost the shutter speed a little if the subject is moving across the frame. This image is at 1/1250 sec. with a D500 and 70-200 f/2.8.

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More importantly, I'd look at AF settings. The D610 is not an extremely fast focusing camera, so it will struggle a bit more than a newer model. The 200-500 is a relatively slow focusing lens compared to a 70-200.

For that camera with fast action you should be using AF-C and Dynamic AF with the smallest AF group you can keep on the subject. A fast running dog can be a challenge - especially at close range. Try to pick up the subject will in advance of the expected image, and continue to focus as the subject approaches. If the starting point is close to in focus, the camera and lens can refine focus quickly.

Your image shows a lot of grasses in front of the subject. It's easy for the camera to miss focus because of those obstructions. With the D500 I had to stop using Group AF part of the time for some images because it was focusing on grasses between me and the subject. When I'm photographing dogs my criteria for positioning is to eliminate obstructions that hinder focus, find a clean background, and have even lighting coming from behind me unless I am looking for something creative.

As the subject moves closer, you'll need extra effort to stay on the head or eye. With that camera, you won't get good results with Area AF for a moving subject. You need to use Dynamic (D-9 I think). The subject movement is extremely fast so you'll probably want a faster shutter speed at close range.

For posting here and getting help, an uncropped image is helpful. You might use something like Nikon NXStudio to display AF points and simply post a screen shot. It's hard for us to see which AF point was used and where it was positioned relative to your subject.

This image is at 1/8000 sec. As you can see, it still has a relatively clean background and plenty of light but I wanted shutter speeds of 1/3200 and higher and used Aperture priority so shutter speed was floating. It was also with the 70-200 lens on a D800E.

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EricBowles said:
While your shutter could be a little faster, it's probably fast enough. I'd try to boost the shutter speed a little if the subject is moving across the frame. This image is at 1/1250 sec. with a D500 and 70-200 f/2.8.



More importantly, I'd look at AF settings. The D610 is not an extremely fast focusing camera, so it will struggle a bit more than a newer model. The 200-500 is a relatively slow focusing lens compared to a 70-200.

For that camera with fast action you should be using AF-C and Dynamic AF with the smallest AF group you can keep on the subject. A fast running dog can be a challenge - especially at close range. Try to pick up the subject will in advance of the expected image, and continue to focus as the subject approaches. If the starting point is close to in focus, the camera and lens can refine focus quickly.

Your image shows a lot of grasses in front of the subject. It's easy for the camera to miss focus because of those obstructions. With the D500 I had to stop using Group AF part of the time for some images because it was focusing on grasses between me and the subject. When I'm photographing dogs my criteria for positioning is to eliminate obstructions that hinder focus, find a clean background, and have even lighting coming from behind me unless I am looking for something creative.

As the subject moves closer, you'll need extra effort to stay on the head or eye. With that camera, you won't get good results with Area AF for a moving subject. You need to use Dynamic (D-9 I think). The subject movement is extremely fast so you'll probably want a faster shutter speed at close range.

For posting here and getting help, an uncropped image is helpful. You might use something like Nikon NXStudio to display AF points and simply post a screen shot. It's hard for us to see which AF point was used and where it was positioned relative to your subject.

This image is at 1/8000 sec. As you can see, it still has a relatively clean background and plenty of light but I wanted shutter speeds of 1/3200 and higher and used Aperture priority so shutter speed was floating. It was also with the 70-200 lens on a D800E.
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Hi Eric,

thank you very much for your feedback.

I will try to look into some of your suggestions! Great photos you take :)
 
Forgive me if too basic, are you keeping your thumb pressed down on the bbaf while you are shooting? In this case you should be, but you have to keep the focusing point over the dogs head. If the dog is running, especially toward or away, the focus distance is changing. If you release the thumb and then shoot you lock the focus where the dog was not where it is .

Of course the other advice given is great, thought I'd mention something basic just in case.
 
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bleirer said:
Forgive me if too basic, are you keeping your thumb pressed down on the bbaf while you are shooting? In this case you should be, but you have to keep the focusing point over the dogs head. If the dog is running, especially toward or away, the focus distance is changing. If you release the thumb and then shoot you lock the focus where the dog was not where it is .

Of course the other advice given is great, thought I'd mention something basic just in case.
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Thanks - I keep the BBAF down all the time, but have an issue keeping the focus point (center) on the object (in this case the dog's head) I think I can see in the photo that the "center of the dog" is sharper than the head? If I check the photo in NX I guess the focus point is on the head, but is dosen't look right! I'll have to check later!
 
JohnChristensenDK said:
Thanks - I keep the BBAF down all the time, but have an issue keeping the focus point (center) on the object (in this case the dog's head) I think I can see in the photo that the "center of the dog" is sharper than the head? If I check the photo in NX I guess the focus point is on the head, but is dosen't look right! I'll have to check later!
Click to expand...

Good, then. The other basic advice I can think of is to shoot short bursts, 5-10 shots whatever the camera will give you. By chance one might be sharper than another since you are asking it to focus on something moving, slap the mirror, open and close the shutter, write out the results, and repeat. I have no idea how reliable focusing points displayed in you software will be when the subject is moving, but your eyes can tell you what is or isn't in focus.
 
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so as the others have said here, your body may not be up to the task.

capturing running dogs requires the body to be able to focus quickly and accurately, the lens to be able to move focus quickly, the photographer to choose appropriate settings and employ good technique. it's the lowest common denominator of those things, so anything can impact your result. basically, it's hard, give yourself a break.

specific suggestions, 1/1250 is probably a bit too slow, although i don't think that's your primary problem here. i tend to shoot 1/1600s as my "baseline" and i prefer to go higher if possible.

i think here you primarily have a focus problem. whether your body is up to the task aside, consider something like group and shutter set to release. group is my preferred tool for action.

but the thing you said to me that stood out was:

I point at the head/eye and press focus/BBAF - and then the release - after 5-7 shots none of the photos are real sharp - attached the best one?
Click to expand...

try putting your focus point on the dog and follow along for a while, THEN* engage af, then once the dog has grown to prominence in the frame, press the shutter, all the while continuing to follow, keeping the focus point on the dog. *when things are moving fast, it’s easy to not get your focus point placed well, or for it to fall off your target; be very deliberate when engaging af so you do it when the af point is on target AND you have a good tracking “rhythm” such that you’ll (mostly) keep it on target.

basically, let the focus system try to sort out the focus problem. give it time and a consistent view.

since your body may struggle for really challenging problems, situations where the dog is running mostly perpendicular to you are going to be easier than if the dog is running directly at you. dog color makes a difference. cameras tend to have trouble with low contrast dogs. it should do ok with the Shepard in your photo.

i run a group over on facebook dedicated to dog sport and dog action photographer, anyone interested in doing dog action photograph is welcome. https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogsportsphotos

it's hard. be gentle on yourself. remind yourself it's fun. get out there and practice.

d500, 70-200 2.8e @200mm, f2.8, 1/1600s, iso 1000
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JohnChristensenDK said:
Thanks - I keep the BBAF down all the time, but have an issue keeping the focus point (center) on the object (in this case the dog's head) I think I can see in the photo that the "center of the dog" is sharper than the head? If I check the photo in NX I guess the focus point is on the head, but is dosen't look right! I'll have to check later!
Click to expand...

imo, don't trust the focus point viewer for this kind of work.
 
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JohnChristensenDK said:
Arrrggggg - I know - trying to avoid an $$$ upgrade! What would work? D500 or D8?? (not mirrorless!)
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i'd consider all these dslrs appropriate for canine action work: d500, d850, d5, d6.

note that glass is also important, i did most of my action work with the dslr with the 70-200 2.8e (most recent version), it's a fact focusing lens in addition to being nice and sharp.

that said, i've recently switched to the z9 and the 100-400, and i don't know a good equivalent for the 100-400 in f-mount.
 
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EricBowles said:
Your image shows a lot of grasses in front of the subject. It's easy for the camera to miss focus because of those obstructions. With the D500 I had to stop using Group AF part of the time for some images because it was focusing on grasses between me and the subject.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. I use group almost elusively and you do have to be mindful of keeping your group AF points off the foreground. I haven't found this much of an issue for medium to larger sized dogs, but for very small dogs in the grass, especially if i get down on the deck, I often switch to single point.
 
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Looks to me that focus was nailed in the middle of the dog...that part looks sharp. So if the AF point was actually on the head then either the lens needs MFA (not sure if D610 has that feature?) or focus is just lagging with the dog at that speed which could be a body issue or 200-500 issue (known to have slow focus) or a combination. Doesn't look like SS was the issue as that torso looks sharp.

Best value in a camera that would greatly improve results would be a used D500. Of course that would change your FOV you are used to going from FX to DX. I'm not sure how D7200 or D7500 compare to D610 but even they may be an improvement but yet again DX. D850 would be the top end FX other than going for the big D5/D6 type camera.
 
Here's an interesting video where they talk about cameras and lenses from the major brands for bif. You said no mirrorless, but there has been such a revolution in tracking that you might want to at least have an open mind.

 
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JohnChristensenDK said:
Thanks - I keep the BBAF down all the time, but have an issue keeping the focus point (center) on the object (in this case the dog's head) I think I can see in the photo that the "center of the dog" is sharper than the head? If I check the photo in NX I guess the focus point is on the head, but is dosen't look right! I'll have to check later!
Click to expand...

A large part of this is simply practice. The more you practice, the easier it becomes to maintain the AF point on your subject.

If you are using the center AF point, there can still be small differences in where and when the camera focuses. For example, you want the camera to hold focus on your selected area if the AF point leaves temporarily, but you also want it to pick up a new subject or correct focus as the subject moves. The camera does a pretty good job with all three, but might not be right all the time. So in addition to practice, you need volume so you can afford to have some misses.

You don't NEED to get a new camera, but the AF capability of the D610 is well behind a camera like the D500 or D850. What difference does this make? I use my equestrian photography as a quantitative benchmark. With the D800E I had a 65% in-focus rate with horses going over jumps in rapid succession. With the D810, my success rate went up to 74%. With the D500 I was at 95% - and about the same with the D850, Z6, and Z7ii. If this is something you're going to do a lot of, a new camera would help. But - with more practice and enough opportunities you can be successful a reasonably high percentage of the time. If you are in the 10-20% range or lower, either the subject is incredibly difficult or you need to work primarily on technique and practice. The D800/D800E and D600/D610 had an Expeed 3 processor, the D810 an Expeed 4 processor, the D500 an Expeed 5 processor, and newer cameras an Expeed 6 or an Expeed 7 in the Z9. Each generation is faster to process and focus.
 
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Bristolian said:
From my own experience (I have owned both D600 & D610 cameras) AF using the outer focus points is more miss than hit and there is no way to gain any consistency to make you think "that'll be a good one".
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that's a fair point. there are more cross type points as you get near the center of the frame. so focus should work better at the center point than elsewhere.
 
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Some have mentioned and I agree that the focus appears to have been on the plane at the dog's stomach. Unless I missed it, I don't see that anyone mentioned the body/lens combination. Have you fine tuned the lens with the body? Have you tested to see if your lens is front or back focusing? If you have, then it comes down to technique and capability of the camera body and you have received great advice above. You shot at f/4, a very limited depth of field. I believe that the stomach fur in focus is about the same plane of at least one of the legs and of the face. That would lead me to believe that the bobbing head and moving legs are out of focus primarily because the shutter speed was inadequate. The stomach is not moving as much as those parts and was therefore in focus. If you were close to the dog and did not crop this image, the proximity of the subject to the camera would call for an even higher shutter speed when dealing with movement. Just my two cents and thoughts.
 
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JohnChristensenDK said:
I own a Nikon D610 [...]
Trying to find the fault I took my 70-200mm/2.8 (VR) and my son's dog for a run [...]
BTW If the dog (or birds) is sitting still I have no problem with sharp images :)
Click to expand...

R.Philip said:
Unless I missed it, I don't see that anyone mentioned the body/lens combination. Have you fine tuned the lens with the body? Have you tested to see if your lens is front or back focusing?
Click to expand...

while it's a good thought, in general i would expect a calibration issue to show up in static shots which the OP notes are fine (see last line).
 
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