Luck or Talent?

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Feiertag said:
I started this topic to generate some opinions. Not to insult anyone by name. You went out of your way to mention Tin-man Lee. For what reason I don't know. What did this accomplish? I kept his name out of it, on purpose.

I'm bored with this thread. It has run its course.
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The reason I linked the video was to give others some context....Tin Man took 1000 shots in a few hours worth of morning game drive...in the video you can better see how he took 1000 shots....he didn't hold the shutter down for 1min on end....he took short controlled bursts when lighting or composition changed and tried some interesting techniques to improve his compositions which put him in awkward positions with less stability and therefore doing bursts was helpful to improve his chances with all the instability fighting his chances.

Watching the video provides a lot more than just a blank statement of firing 1000 shots, in a short time frame, at a slow moving lion as you so put it in the OP.
 
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I was kind of in a situation like this once, with a rather well respected Professional photographer. Situation was a tiger encounter, and me having a bit of buck fever ripped off a lot of pics. Afterwards, he mentioned that I took a lot of pics, and did I get anything good?, I said yeah I hope so. I asked him how many pics he took, his answer: "one".......
 
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Viseguy said:
I was kind of in a situation like this once, with a rather well respected Professional photographer. Situation was a tiger encounter, and me having a bit of buck fever ripped off a lot of pics. Afterwards, he mentioned that I took a lot of pics, and did I get anything good?, I said yeah I hope so. I asked him how many pics he took, his answer: "one".......
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Now, that's talent! You made my day. A photographer who used a single fishing rod, compared to one that used a fishing net. No comparison as to which method takes skill and talent.
 
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Feiertag said:
Now, that's talent! You made my day. A photographer who used a single fishing rod, compared to one that used a fishing net. No comparison as to which method takes skill and talent.
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I guarantee his one pic was better than any one of my plethora of pics. His comment really stuck with me. Its really hard though not to take a lot of pics in this situation. You/we pay a fortune for equipment, you/we pay a fortune to get to location, and the inclination is to take many pics, as we won't be back here anytime soon. I get that, but hopefully, next trip to Masai Mara later this year I'll be a little more like that pro, but its hard not to let it rip......
 
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Viseguy said:
I was kind of in a situation like this once, with a rather well respected Professional photographer. Situation was a tiger encounter, and me having a bit of buck fever ripped off a lot of pics. Afterwards, he mentioned that I took a lot of pics, and did I get anything good?, I said yeah I hope so. I asked him how many pics he took, his answer: "one".......
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Context? How often had the other photographer had opportunities to photograph tigers? If he had seen tigers multiple times the odds are he already had quite a few photos. If it were my first and possibly only opportunity to see and/or photograph a wild tiger I'd get as many photos as possible.

For an animal I see often, I already have many photos and I might or might not be inclined to make any more unless the animal was doing something extraordinary or the composition and/or lighting was extraordinary.
 
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One other point, the photographer in question is a professional trying to make a living. From a pure business standpoint, anything he can do to maximize his chances of getting a great picture is just good business. You might catch a fleeting facial expression that you wouldn't shooting fewer photos. One that sells.

At any rate, you do it your way, let others do it theirs. No need to look down on anyone because they do it differently.
 
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splatbass said:
One other point, the photographer in question is a professional trying to make a living. From a pure business standpoint, anything he can do to maximize his chances of getting a great picture is just good business. You might catch a fleeting facial expression that you wouldn't shooting fewer photos. One that sells.

At any rate, you do it your way, let others do it theirs. No need to look down on anyone because they do it differently.
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It's amazing how much can happen from one photo to the next even at 20 frames/sec: a flick of the tail, the nictitating membrane can close and open, a bird can turn completely around. The Painted Redstart's little 'dance' happens so quickly there's no way to photograph it except with a high-speed burst.
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Luck? Perhaps, but preparation helped too: knowing where the bird would land, understanding the bird's behavior, reading the light quality, having the right equipment on hand & ready, positioning myself for a non-distracting background. Luck favors those who are prepared.
 
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All that matters is the final image.

"Talent" has a lot of layers to peel back to arrive at the true definition. There's artistic talent, technical talent, and the talent it takes to get your gear in the right place at the right moment in time. And (I'm sure this has been repeated somewhere in this discussion)...

"Luck" is when preparation meets opportunity.
 
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Feiertag said:
The other day I watched a video of a professional nature photographer. The location was Serengeti National Park with a guide. During a short time frame, 1000 shots were taken of this one particular lion. Of course, he ended up with a few wall hangers. The odds are in your favour when you take that many shots of a slow-moving and sometimes stationary animal.

To me, this does not require talent or skill. You may as well take a video and pick your best frame from it.

What do you think? Luck or what.
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There's always luck with wildlife or sports photography when some amazing happens in front of you - BUT you then need the skill to get the shot - whether it's a single shot or multiple release
 
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splatbass said:
One other point, the photographer in question is a professional trying to make a living. From a pure business standpoint, anything he can do to maximize his chances of getting a great picture is just good business. You might catch a fleeting facial expression that you wouldn't shooting fewer photos. One that sells.

At any rate, you do it your way, let others do it theirs. No need to look down on anyone because they do it differently.
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Actually, I looked at the video again. Lee didn't produce anything whatsoever that anyone one of us wouldn't have achieved or better.
The drama and fabrication presented in this video were a complete turnoff to me.
He claimed in his title: My camera broke..........He didn't break his camera. Two settings shifted on him, temporarily. That does not warrant the title, "Broke."
He then goes on as if he was diagnosed with a fatal disease, stating that all his 1,000 shots were in Jpeg and in AF-S mode.
Lo and behold it was a mere dozen or so shots that were actually shot in Jpeg.
I won't be fooled again. Lee is off my Christmas card list. I am no longer a fan.
 
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Winston Churchill (Sir) said:
Live and let live. Other people's opinions and tricks are not my business - you want to shoot 1000 photos - go for it. You want to be stupid and shoot one - go for it. Useless topic - because it really doesn't matter what anyone else does.
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Yup. Its not useful at all to think about how lucky someone is for an accomplishment.

I also don't think its useful to think about talent. Talent (as opposed to skill) is kind of like a measure of aptitude. No one knows how much aptitude they have for photography or any other pursuit. Your maximum potential could be that of an award winning Nat Geo photographer, or it could be that of someone who gets 10 likes on a post on Instagram after 30 years of practice. The only things that matter are how much work you put in to maximize your skill level, and how much fulfillment you get out of whatever it is you're working on.

This thread comes across as someone being annoyed that Tin Man is more successful and well known as a photographer than they are. Tin Man is required to "sell" his content on YouTube - everyone is. Being upset that he is playing the game doesn't make sense. If professional wildlife photographers didn't do stuff like this, they wouldn't make money and we'd miss out on having professional wildlife photographers.
 
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Winston Churchill (Sir) said:
Live and let live. Other people's opinions and tricks are not my business - you want to shoot 1000 photos - go for it. You want to be stupid and shoot one - go for it. Useless topic - because it really doesn't matter what anyone else does.
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bronaldo said:
Yup. Its not useful at all to think about how lucky someone is for an accomplishment.

I also don't think its useful to think about talent. Talent (as opposed to skill) is kind of like a measure of aptitude. No one knows how much aptitude they have for photography or any other pursuit. Your maximum potential could be that of an award winning Nat Geo photographer, or it could be that of someone who gets 10 likes on a post on Instagram after 30 years of practice. The only things that matter are how much work you put in to maximize your skill level, and how much fulfillment you get out of whatever it is you're working on.

This thread comes across as someone being annoyed that Tin Man is more successful and well known as a photographer than they are. Tin Man is required to "sell" his content on YouTube - everyone is. Being upset that he is playing the game doesn't make sense. If professional wildlife photographers didn't do stuff like this, they wouldn't make money and we'd miss out on having professional wildlife photographers.
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Are you joking? Jealous of what? Guys like Steve Perry, Simon d'Entremont, and Mark Smith, to name a few, are the cream of the crop. No BS or fabrication in their presentation.
Pure skill and talent, at its finest. BTW, just because you have a self-given label of being a professional wildlife photographer and/or making money taking pictures, doesn't automatically make you a good photographer. Flooding the YouTube market with their videos makes them well known. The elite like the ones I mentioned are in a class all by themselves.
 
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Feiertag said:
Are you joking? Jealous of what? Guys like Steve Perry, Simon d'Entremont, and Mark Smith, to name a few, are the cream of the crop. No BS or fabrication in their presentation.
Pure skill and talent, at its finest. BTW, just because you have a self-given label of being a professional wildlife photographer and/or making money taking pictures, doesn't automatically make you a good photographer. Flooding the YouTube market with their videos makes them well known. The elite like the ones I mentioned are in a class all by themselves.
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I assume that having multiple award winning photos is what confirms that Tin Man Lee knows what he's doing. You seem very emotionally invested in all of this. You should probably go out for a walk or something.
 
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arbitrage said:
First off, I know I didn't call you stupid because I know you don't shoot puffins in AF-S at 1FPS. So no need to take offence. Now if someone owned gear that could only shoot in AF-S at 1FPS then I would certainly not consider that stupid. In retrospect, I should have qualified that statement with "in modern times with modern equipment capable of AF-C and >1FPS"). Hopefully that clarifies what I meant.

Taking a step back, what I'd be curious to know from you is where you draw the line between luck and skill? You mentioned you have never shot more than 6 frames in a burst. Is that around where you see the cross over point between the two? I'm honestly curious and not trying to start an argument. As Mitesh put it so concisely I don't care how anyone else gets the shot (other than unethical behaviour) and I don't see why anyone cares how I got the shot (or how Tin-Man gets his shots) (excepting unethical behaviour).

I've been doing photography and participating in photography forums for ~14 years now. One term that has always been thrown around is "spray and pray". This is essentially what you are talking about in the OP. Whenever someone uses that term they are usually using it in a derogatory manner. Looking down on photographers that hold down the shutter button and/or use a higher FPS than they would do. I've tried to ask the same type of question I'm asking you above, "where do you draw the line"? And what makes your line the correct one? My opinion is there is no correct line and that goes back to me not caring how someone gets the shot. Everyone must decide for themselves and I will certainly not look down on someone nor insult them if I see them setting their camera to a higher FPS or holding down the shutter longer than I do as we stand side by side shooting the same scene.

There is no denying that the things these modern cameras can do have made many things easier and more people are able to get amazing shots of more challenging subjects than ever before. The fastest MILCs are now shooting 50FPS in RAW and I think 120FPS in some jpeg formats. My camera can "only" do 30FPS and I'd take one that can do 50FPS and shoot it at 50FPS for the appropriate subjects without question. As long as it shoots RAW, I'll crank the FPS as high as the camera lets me when I'm shooting subjects that are fast enough to warrant it (IMO).

For example, this shot below of the KF was taken at 30FPS, handholding a 400/2.8 lens while in my kayak being moved around by the current. When I'm in that situation and looking for a frame like this with beak just about to break the surface, I'm going to throw every MILC advantage I can at that situation. Sure I could eventually get the same shot with a camera at 5FPS, without full sensor AF coverage and without a stacked sensor BUT I've only got 10hrs or so to shoot a week and I'd rather maximize my chances.

View attachment 62564
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Awesome shot👍👍👍
 
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bronaldo said:
I assume that having multiple award winning photos is what confirms that Tin Man Lee knows what he's doing. You seem very emotionally invested in all of this. You should probably go out for a walk or something.
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Good for him. Emotional about what? Someone makes a post about what I wrote and I give them my opinion or reasoning. Take it or leave it!
 
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arbitrage said:
First off, I know I didn't call you stupid because I know you don't shoot puffins in AF-S at 1FPS. So no need to take offence. Now if someone owned gear that could only shoot in AF-S at 1FPS then I would certainly not consider that stupid. In retrospect, I should have qualified that statement with "in modern times with modern equipment capable of AF-C and >1FPS"). Hopefully that clarifies what I meant.

Taking a step back, what I'd be curious to know from you is where you draw the line between luck and skill? You mentioned you have never shot more than 6 frames in a burst. Is that around where you see the cross over point between the two? I'm honestly curious and not trying to start an argument. As Mitesh put it so concisely I don't care how anyone else gets the shot (other than unethical behaviour) and I don't see why anyone cares how I got the shot (or how Tin-Man gets his shots) (excepting unethical behaviour).

I've been doing photography and participating in photography forums for ~14 years now. One term that has always been thrown around is "spray and pray". This is essentially what you are talking about in the OP. Whenever someone uses that term they are usually using it in a derogatory manner. Looking down on photographers that hold down the shutter button and/or use a higher FPS than they would do. I've tried to ask the same type of question I'm asking you above, "where do you draw the line"? And what makes your line the correct one? My opinion is there is no correct line and that goes back to me not caring how someone gets the shot. Everyone must decide for themselves and I will certainly not look down on someone nor insult them if I see them setting their camera to a higher FPS or holding down the shutter longer than I do as we stand side by side shooting the same scene.

There is no denying that the things these modern cameras can do have made many things easier and more people are able to get amazing shots of more challenging subjects than ever before. The fastest MILCs are now shooting 50FPS in RAW and I think 120FPS in some jpeg formats. My camera can "only" do 30FPS and I'd take one that can do 50FPS and shoot it at 50FPS for the appropriate subjects without question. As long as it shoots RAW, I'll crank the FPS as high as the camera lets me when I'm shooting subjects that are fast enough to warrant it (IMO).

For example, this shot below of the KF was taken at 30FPS, handholding a 400/2.8 lens while in my kayak being moved around by the current. When I'm in that situation and looking for a frame like this with beak just about to break the surface, I'm going to throw every MILC advantage I can at that situation. Sure I could eventually get the same shot with a camera at 5FPS, without full sensor AF coverage and without a stacked sensor BUT I've only got 10hrs or so to shoot a week and I'd rather maximize my chances.

View attachment 62564
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That is a most excellent shot…kudos mon…really.
 
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arbitrage said:
The reason I linked the video was to give others some context....Tin Man took 1000 shots in a few hours worth of morning game drive...in the video you can better see how he took 1000 shots....he didn't hold the shutter down for 1min on end....he took short controlled bursts when lighting or composition changed and tried some interesting techniques to improve his compositions which put him in awkward positions with less stability and therefore doing bursts was helpful to improve his chances with all the instability fighting his chances.

Watching the video provides a lot more than just a blank statement of firing 1000 shots, in a short time frame, at a slow moving lion as you so put i
Click to expand...

Ralph said:
Awesome shot👍👍👍
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Right on, Ralph.
 
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