Z8.
Go forward, and enjoy life.
Go forward, and enjoy life.
Need Help Deciding Between Two Cameras (d850 & z8)
- Thread starter Bird Guy
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Bird Guy-
I looked at your request in greater detail. Currently, on MPB, the Nikon D-850 is listed for $1649. It is used, in excellent condition. The Nikon Z-8 is available for $3696. I make that a slightly over $2000 difference. A FTZ-2 adaptor adds another $250 so adding everything up I see about $2300 plus tax that you would need to come up with to go the Z-8 route.
My question is simply how long would you need to wait to save that money?
Tom
I looked at your request in greater detail. Currently, on MPB, the Nikon D-850 is listed for $1649. It is used, in excellent condition. The Nikon Z-8 is available for $3696. I make that a slightly over $2000 difference. A FTZ-2 adaptor adds another $250 so adding everything up I see about $2300 plus tax that you would need to come up with to go the Z-8 route.
My question is simply how long would you need to wait to save that money?
Tom
fcotterill
Well-known member
I agree a Z8 is the ideal (with adapters). But don't underestimate the D850, as you can get going immediately on your budget. I continue with my DSLRs (D6 and D850) and several F Nikkors; although the Nikon's pro level mirrorless cameras give us useful advantages, and with the lighter improved telephotos.
You may find Brad Hill's overview of camera specs useful in this talk, about ~10:00
www.youtube.com
You may find Brad Hill's overview of camera specs useful in this talk, about ~10:00
TCSTV Live: Six Easy Steps to Capturing Great Wildlife Images
A presentation by Nikon Wildlife photographer, Brad Hill, on six easy steps to capture amazing wildlife photography and elevate your images! Sponsored by Nik...
www.youtube.com
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This implies budget is important or perhaps even critical to you.
Part of your choice dilemma might be a used Z8 cost a lot more than a used D850.
Both bodies provide decent resolution when used in DX mode - with a Z8 win as the viewfinder/monitor expand the DX crop to fully fill the viewfinder/monitor.
I find Z8 AF points across the whole of the frame a big advantage, just as I did with the D500 expanded AF viewfinder coverage compared to the "centre weighted" D850 coverage.
The future is Z - though at a cost compared to F mount, particularly with many exotic F mount telephotos being half or less second hand than new price.
Trading up to a D850 with perhaps an option at some stage of buying another exotic telephone photo secondhand should improve your wildlife photography, though potentially not as much as going Z at a much higher overall price point.
Only you can take the final decision.
Woody Meristem
Well-known member
Speaking as a mirrorless user (not Nikon) I'd never spend money on a good (even great) but outdated DSLR camera. Were I you I'd make do with what I had until I could get a mirrorless -- if that took a year or two or three so be it. You have a very good camera that's capable of taking superb photos and a zoom lens that has the ability to change your field of view easily.
MikeJ
Well-known member
I would agree on the Z8. Didn't see if you listed your budget, but I just got an email that there's a refurb Z8 from Nikon for $3200,
rjpawl
Member
My main setup for several years was a D500 200-500mm. The last few years I wanted to transition to full frame with a 850. I hemmed and hawed and glad I did with the release of the Z8 and z mount 180-600. I didnt think twice and gladly pulled the trigger. I've been using the Z8 with the 200-500 (and adapter) while I wait for the 180-600. I am very impressed with the Z8 and cant wait for the 180-600. Now I reckon to transition to Z mount over time.
I agree with going Z8 if at all possible...its a purchase for a long time and will hold its value I'm sure.
BTW...the 180-600 is on the way
I agree with going Z8 if at all possible...its a purchase for a long time and will hold its value I'm sure.
BTW...the 180-600 is on the way
Ideally, unless you get a helluva deal on an D850 I'd choose the Z8. it's a fantastic camera. But the D850 is no slouch and far cheaper.
If you do make the switch to mirrorless be prepared for a notable learning curve.
There are a ton of setup options and it'll take time to get up to speed with the AF system.
If you do make the switch to mirrorless be prepared for a notable learning curve.
There are a ton of setup options and it'll take time to get up to speed with the AF system.
coachjohn57
Well-known member
For several years, my setup was a D500 for wildlife and a D850 for landscapes and portraits. Over the course of two years I made switch to mirrorless, first with the Z9, and then as a second body, the Z8 (wishing the entire time that a mirrorless version of the D500, with high resolution, would be released). My thoughts:
- The D850 is a fantastic body...it produces beautiful files and it was, by far, the best DSLR I owned.
- For wildlife, particularly wildlife in motion, the Z9 and the Z8 are two of the best mirrorless bodies around. I still don't understand why Nikon can't/won't implement "zebras" in the viewfinder for highlight warnings, and I think they menu systems for AF are unnecessarily complex, but they are well built, yield excellent files, and are very capable of just about anything you throw at them...once you master the learning curve.
- There IS a learning curve...larger than I had anticipated. I shot Canon for several years, moved to Nikon a few years back and found that transition seamless...the move from a DSLR to mirrorless was, at least for me, much more of a transition.
- If you can afford it, I would recommend the Z8...with the FTZ II adapter you can still use your F-mount glass and make a slower transition to the Z-mount lenses if that is your desire. If the Z8 is not in your budget - the D850 is still a wonderful body. It has its limitations RE frame rate, AF, etc. but it is a great bit of kit.
Nature Files
Active member
You mean, the people recommending the Z8 already have one? Would you rather have people commenting on the Z8 who don't have one? LOL.
Strange comment.
Calson
Well-known member
A lot can be corrected if need be in post but not an out of focus shot and that is why photographers have bought new camera models that promised improved autofocus performance. That is why the new DSLR cameras with a dedicated autofocus chip (D500, D850, D5) were quickly adopted regardless of the cost to buy them. The next evolution was subject detection and it is a big improvement in autofocus performance.
With the D850 high megapixel camera and the D5 low megapixel but faster autofocus there were trade-offs with each camera. With the Z9 there is no longer a compromise being made between image resolution and autofocus performance. The Z9 replaced my D850 and my D5 which to me was a bargain. That is sells for $1,000 less than the Sony camera is also not trivial.
Before buying the Z9 I looked at the capabilities and limitations of the Z7 camera and decided against buying one. For fast moving subjects the Z8 and Z9 are superior and if one can afford them they will be well rewarded in their wildlife photography efforts.
With the D850 high megapixel camera and the D5 low megapixel but faster autofocus there were trade-offs with each camera. With the Z9 there is no longer a compromise being made between image resolution and autofocus performance. The Z9 replaced my D850 and my D5 which to me was a bargain. That is sells for $1,000 less than the Sony camera is also not trivial.
Before buying the Z9 I looked at the capabilities and limitations of the Z7 camera and decided against buying one. For fast moving subjects the Z8 and Z9 are superior and if one can afford them they will be well rewarded in their wildlife photography efforts.
Mal Paso
Active member
I find people are more apt to find positive reasons to support their purchase and the few second guessing themselves are unlikely to post.
Some people don't have deep pockets and have to choose between shooting time and better equipment. The Z8 sensor isn't so much better than the D850 that you tell which in photos. I spent the budget on lighting gear and the Z7ii is awesome with studio strobes.
I took a really nice photo of a fox last week. Not going to throw it out because it was taken with the D810. I wouldn't have the photo except I can afford to leave the D810 handy in the house for those opportunities.
I agree with getting the best/latest that you can reasonably afford but most people have to draw the line somewhere. This is a mostly Nikon forum not Leitz or Hassablad .
It's really a decision about the mount, not so much the body: F or F/Z. Z wins hands down, no comparison. I moved to Z, and for the most part stopped using F. I still use Ai-S but strictly for video.
groob
Member
I think you can get a Z8 refurbished from Nikon right now for $3100, so it might not be as expensive as you think.
I have had a D500 since its release and it has been a wonderful camera. I have also rented a D850 on several occasions for trips. Lately, I have been renting a Z8. When Nikon put the Z8 + 24-120 on sale for $400 off plus zero percent financing for 24 months I finally bit. I do not regret it for a second. The Z8 is superior from the D850 in every respect except for image quality where they are pretty much equal. If you shoot wildlife, sports or any other moving action, the Z8 is simply better. Plus, it will get you into the new system. I am not knocking the D850. It is the best all around DSLR. But unfortunately, DSLR’s are done. The F mount is done. When you can make the finances work, go to the Z8. You won’t regret it, you can use your existing lenses with the adapter and it should last you a good long time. Happy shooting!
I have one of each and prefer the Z8 because it is lighter, I don’t shoot portrait, and have no use for a grip. The SD second slot amd battery capacity are non issues for me…I’ve yet to kill a battery or fill a card in a days outing. Seriously considering swapping the Z9 for a second Z8 because it fits what i want better.
There is some validity to having 2 identical bodies…it makes copying settings easier…but for me the two are close enough that muscle memory isn’t an issue either because I don’t use the buttons under the LCD anyway. I bought the Z9 for the AF and frame rate over my Z7II…but if both had been available at Z9 launch I would have gotten the Z8…and weight is about 95% of why I prefer the Z8.
Kool-ade doesn’t have anything to do with it…people moved to Z bodies because of AF, SD, and frame rate…and because there will never be another F body released and even the best ones do not have the capabilities that better censors and processors provide…the mirrorless just came along for the ride.
I had a D500 and a D850 that I was using for wildlife, then moved to the Z9 as soon as it came out. The Z9 is very heavy and large so I bought the Z8 as soon as it came out, then I loved it so much I bought a second one. I have not used the D850 since I bought the Z9 and I sold the D500. The Z8 offers so much more than what my D series cameras offered. I like to shoot action and the camera allows me to handhold with the 600PF or 100-400 and I like the mobility of that. I've never looked back once I got the mirrorless camera. You can contact me if you want to purchase a used D850!
RickL
New member
I shot the D850 for 4 years and loved it. I then switched to the Z8. There is no comparison. With the 2.0 firmware update the advances on the camera for wildlife photography are incredible. I use the adapter for my f mount lenses. All my photos are tack sharp. There is a learning curve but Steve Perry’s Z8/Z9 setup guide is a must to prepare your camera for excellent photography
The D850 is probably the best all-purpose DSLR Nikon has ever made. The D500 is in the same family and generation of technology and is certainly the best APS-C camera Nikon has ever made. But do you really need both cameras? And what is your time horizon? How much of a barrier is budget? If you want to own two cameras, do you really want two DSLR cameras or do you want to start moving toward mirrorless? How about lenses - you'll need at least one FX lens?
There are always going to be newer and better cameras. With new features and more advanced cameras comes a learning curve. You could pick up a D850 today and without touching a manual, enjoy 95% of it's capabilities. A new Z8 - or other mirrorless camera will involve a significant learning curve. If you are reluctant to invest time in learning new features, stick with the D850. But if you want to get started learning about how to use a mirrorless camera, jump in now. I got my Z6 in the initial shipment, and for the next year only used my D850 a few times as a second camera even though it had higher resolution. I loved the Z shooting experience. I sold my D500 when I got my D850 and never looked back. A D850 in DX crop mode is almost exactly the same as a D500 - so the D500 is almost never a primary camera. I had a lot more value in a Z6/D850 kit than a D850/D500 kit. Today you could get a D850 and Z6 while trading or selling your D500 and the cost is only a little beyond a D850. You could also skip the backup camera idea right now in terms of DSLR cameras and only add a backup as you grow in the Z line (this is "camera light" in the short run, but likely to be better long term).
I moved to mirrorless with the idea my lens purchases would last around 10 years. The F-mount lenses I sold were already close to time for replacement and were 10 years old or more. My F-mount camera bodies were relatively new, but the effective life of a camera body is a lot less than a lens. F-mount lenses continue to drop in value - which creates selling pressure to get out while you can, and bargains when you have good lenses. I still have a half dozen F-mount lenses without comparable Z alternatives. I currently have a strategy of selling camera bodies quickly and building a Z lens kit that works.
The FTZ adapter is excellent. Lenses perform as well or better than they did on a DSLR. You don't need AF Fine Tuning on most lenses. There are fast and slow lenses, and fast and slow cameras. Technique is a big part of achieving fast focus. If you have an FTZ you can continue to use F-mount lenses - especially good lenses.
The cheapest route is to stick with a DSLR system short term. The cheapest route long term is to start dumping DSLR gear before it declines in value further. I have fewer lenses now than I did with a DSLR only kit. I've sold 2 lenses for every new Z lens I have purchased. My F-mount kit is relatively lean right now. So while the mirrorless system did result in some new lenses, I needed to have updates anyway and the F-mount lenses made a significant contribution to the cost.
As you think about moving to FX, you will need at least one normal lens and possibly a wide lens. You could get a 24-70, a 16-35, or an 18-35 - all used lenses - if you stay with a DSLR. If you get a Z camera, the 14-30 f/4, 24-70 f/4, and 24-120 f/4 are all better lenses than their F-mount counterparts and very reasonably priced. The investment in new Z lenses future proofs you as they are new designs that will be with you a long time.
While a Z8 is a great choice, all the Z cameras are remarkably good. You can easily start with a used Z6 or Z7 and the FTZ. That would give you a move into mirrorless, a two camera system, enough budget to get a lens or two, and handle your stated need for better environmental images. The Z8 has much more advanced subject recognition and does have pre-capture and Auto-capture - which you would not have. You also could wait for the upcoming Z6iii or whatever new camera is announced. Given the position of the Z8 and Z9, it's clear that the next cameras (yes - plural) will likely cover the moderate priced FX range and possibly DX - and likely those cameras will have some new features. Pre-Capture and Auto Capture are memory card intensive and will need both a fast card and fast processor.
Darrellhar
Well-known member
I will put another vote in for Z8. Mirrorless is the future and Nikon continues to add features to it. The only downside to moving to Z8 (if you want to call it a downside) is that you will produce a lot more content so make sure you have hard drive space. Frame rate and auto focus will cause you to produce a lot more images that you will keep. Nikon recently started selling Z8 as a refurb as well which will help you save a few dollars. Precapture is awesome but there is so much more to the camera that you will love. I loved my D850 but once got a Z9 I knew I’d never use it again and sold it. I didn’t believe the mirrorless hype until I owned one.
I have both-lucky me. I would save/sell some stuff and get the Z8. I find the IQ to very close using the 70-200 FL F mount lens.
ARClark
Well-known member
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Then came the Z9 mirrorless flagship camera, and I jumped on it. It was actually a tad lighter and smaller than the gripped D850s, and appeared to be a mirrorless version of a mashup of the 45mp D850 and the fast-focusing D5 with many refinements for $1000 less than a new D5 or D6. However, battery life was reduced, and for my purposes, its AF was a mixed bag. It was better than the D850 in some ways and worse in others. Enough worse that I considered returning it. The problem was that if it lost focus, it would lock onto backgrounds and not budge without manual intervention or recomposing on a closer frame-filling subject. It was also less capable of focusing on BIF with busy backgrounds and couldn't find OOF birds nearly as well. I really missed the D850's group AF. The Z9 did offer subject identification, but it was rather hit or miss. I found myself having to manually assist focus much more than with the D850. This was two years ago. However, AF speed was excellent, especially with TCs, and it could autofocus much better with maximum apertures of f/8 or smaller (nice when using f/5.6 lenses with TCs). I've really appreciated the much quieter operation with no vibration, very OVF-like and brighter EVF which shows the effects of the exposure settings, and faster frame rates. The rear screen was more flexible and there were more custom controls on the body. Over the past two years, the Z9's AF has improved significantly. It still has a tendency to lock on backgrounds, but there are workarounds, especially with Z lenses; and subject identification, especially for birds, has been greatly improved. Pre-release capture, as you noted, has also been added. So the current Z9 is substantially better than when originally released. Bottom line, taking everything into account including some niggles with the AF, I found myself using the Z9 virtually all the time, and using the D850 only when I wanted a second camera with a different focal length lens.
So then came the Z8, which has taken most of the functionality of the current Z9 and compressed it into an ungripped D500/D850ish-sized body. Probably its biggest drawback compared to a D850 is its battery life, but Smallrig third party batteries are relatively inexpensive, and they can be charged either in camera or with a USB charging cord. A grip can also be added for extended battery life, but with no added performance changes. I was initially reluctant to add a Z8 based on fewer Fn buttons than the Z9, reduced battery life, only one CF express card slot, and the fact that a refurbished Z9 could be bought for about $500 more than the original retail price of a Z8. However, I recently purchased a refurbished Z8 for $3200 and I've found the transition almost seamless. I really appreciate the reduced weight (compared to the Z9 or gripped D850), especially when shooting handheld with long lenses. I now shoot primarily with the Z8 and just change batteries more often.
I've gone through this long-winded reply in hopes it might help you with your decision. You're on a similar path as mine but with the option to jump several years forward with the Z8, or move along more incrementally with a D850. There's no right or wrong answer. For my shooting, I found the D850 a step up from the D500 for the same reasons you mentioned, but keeping in mind that a grip was needed to achieve 9 fps frame rate versus 7 fps for the ungripped body. So from that standpoint, purchasing a used D850 would be a budget friendly upgrade with no AF learning curve. Hopefully you could afford to keep the D500 as a backup, if desired. IQ of the images will be just as good as what's produced by the Z8. If you could wait a couple years, a D850 might be worth keeping until the next iterations of the Z9 and Z8 come out or prices fall on the Z8.
It really boils down to your budget and your need/desire to jump ahead to a Z8 versus meeting your immediate needs with a D850. The Z8 is more fun to shoot, offers much faster frame rates without the need for a grip, and creates some shooting opportunities not offered by the D850; but the D850 is still capable of producing outstanding images.
Hi Bird Guy. I'm also a bird/nature/landscape photographer, with an emphasis on small birds. I had a D810 and a D500 at one time. I liked full-frame for the better image quality when I could fill the frame (especially landscapes), as well as the wider field of view when shooting with long prime lenses like my 500 f/4 with TCs. However, I really appreciated certain features of the D500 like the moveable rear screen, better live view, faster AF, larger buffer and faster frame rate. So, I sold the D810 and got a D850, which combined the best features of the D500 and D810 cameras, albeit with a slight reduction in AF speed and buffer, and slower frame rate from the D500. To achieve 9 fps, I added a battery grip to the D850, which made it about the size of a D5. I liked the D850 enough to sell my D500 and get a second one, also gripped. I chose not to pursue the early Z6 and Z7 bodies (l and ll versions) as their AF was not fast enough. I never got a D5 due its smaller 21 MP sensor, size and high cost.
Then came the Z9 mirrorless flagship camera, and I jumped on it. It was actually a tad lighter and smaller than the gripped D850s, and appeared to be a mirrorless version of a mashup of the 45mp D850 and the fast-focusing D5 with many refinements for $1000 less than a new D5 or D6. However, battery life was reduced, and for my purposes, its AF was a mixed bag. It was better than the D850 in some ways and worse in others. Enough worse that I considered returning it. The problem was that if it lost focus, it would lock onto backgrounds and not budge without manual intervention or recomposing on a closer frame-filling subject. It was also less capable of focusing on BIF with busy backgrounds and couldn't find OOF birds nearly as well. I really missed the D850's group AF. The Z9 did offer subject identification, but it was rather hit or miss. I found myself having to manually assist focus much more than with the D850. This was two years ago. However, AF speed was excellent, especially with TCs, and it could autofocus much better with maximum apertures of f/8 or smaller (nice when using f/5.6 lenses with TCs). I've really appreciated the much quieter operation with no vibration, very OVF-like and brighter EVF which shows the effects of the exposure settings, and faster frame rates. The rear screen was more flexible and there were more custom controls on the body. Over the past two years, the Z9's AF has improved significantly. It still has a tendency to lock on backgrounds, but there are workarounds, especially with Z lenses; and subject identification, especially for birds, has been greatly improved. Pre-release capture, as you noted, has also been added. So the current Z9 is substantially better than when originally released. Bottom line, taking everything into account including some niggles with the AF, I found myself using the Z9 virtually all the time, and using the D850 only when I wanted a second camera with a different focal length lens.
So then came the Z8, which has taken most of the functionality of the current Z9 and compressed it into an ungripped D500/D850ish-sized body. Probably its biggest drawback compared to a D850 is its battery life, but Smallrig third party batteries are relatively inexpensive, and they can be charged either in camera or with a USB charging cord. A grip can also be added for extended battery life, but with no added performance changes. I was initially reluctant to add a Z8 based on fewer Fn buttons than the Z9, reduced battery life, only one CF express card slot, and the fact that a refurbished Z9 could be bought for about $500 more than the original retail price of a Z8. However, I recently purchased a refurbished Z8 for $3200 and I've found the transition almost seamless. I really appreciate the reduced weight (compared to the Z9 or gripped D850), especially when shooting handheld with long lenses. I now shoot primarily with the Z8 and just change batteries more often.
I've gone through this long-winded reply in hopes it might help you with your decision. You're on a similar path as mine but with the option to jump several years forward with the Z8, or move along more incrementally with a D850. There's no right or wrong answer. For my shooting, I found the D850 a step up from the D500 for the same reasons you mentioned, but keeping in mind that a grip was needed to achieve 9 fps frame rate versus 7 fps for the ungripped body. So from that standpoint, purchasing a used D850 would be a budget friendly upgrade with no AF learning curve. Hopefully you could afford to keep the D500 as a backup, if desired. IQ of the images will be just as good as what's produced by the Z8. If you could wait a couple years, a D850 might be worth keeping until the next iterations of the Z9 and Z8 come out or prices fall on the Z8.
It really boils down to your budget and your need/desire to jump ahead to a Z8 versus meeting your immediate needs with a D850. The Z8 is more fun to shoot, offers much faster frame rates without the need for a grip, and creates some shooting opportunities not offered by the D850; but the D850 is still capable of producing outstanding images.
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I absolutely disagree with this statement.
While mirrorless cameras may be better cameras for some genres of subjects, DSLRs and their associated lenses are still capable of capturing excellent images. In fact, I'd wager that many DSLRs are mostly limited in performance by the user, and not the other way around. Mirrorless cameras do have features and upgrades that allow more people to successfully capture more good images of more challenging subjects. But the set of people that really need them is much smaller than the set who either think they need them or just want them.
Yes, DSLR resale values have plummeted recently, but that opens up those tools for many people who can now afford a camera and/or lens that they couldn't earlier. Yes, overall longevity may be an issue, if the equipment cannot be repaired, but that was an issue before the arrival of mirrorless systems. Even so, there is a lot of photographic life left in many DSLRs, and DSLRs are still a more than capable photographic tool for most.
nikonkelly
Member
Nothing really new here yet, I will add my 1/2 cent to the discussion. I have both the D850 and used to have the D500 but sold the 500 to buy the 850 and I also have a Z7 and Z8. I loved the D500 and after I sold it and missed it immeasurably, I bought a second D500 and then hardly used it. In two years time I shot less then 100 images on it. Then when the Z8 was announced I ordered it and received it the first day that they shipped. I love it, even though there is a pretty steep learning curve with it as compared to the DSLR's. I dont shoot the Z7 very much at all, I also dont shoot the D850 very much either.
Today I had a small shoot of confirmation pictures which I needed the flash for. Well, the Z8 will not fire the SB800 nor the SB600... so I had to use the D850. Will there be any image quality difference in the D850 vs. the Z8... none. Is the Z8 better for Birds in Flight... it sure is... but the D850 is not bad. If I had to get a new camera today and only had enough cash to get the D850, that would be my choice. If I had the money for the Z8... that would be my choice. anything that you want to do with the D850 can be done on the Z8 and nearly vice-versa... there is no pre or post capture on the D850... would that be nice, sure, it is is not the end of the world to be without it. The Z8 can trap shoot... if you have the z lenses... but not with F mounts. The D850 can shoot your flash, the Z8 can not.
They are very close in their abilities, but they are not exact. The D850 will not give you much return when you go to sell it, the Z8 will give you more.... but either way... you really cant go wrong. pick your kool-aid and drink it with a big smile on your face all the while it is quenching your thirst! Enjoy which ever you get!
Today I had a small shoot of confirmation pictures which I needed the flash for. Well, the Z8 will not fire the SB800 nor the SB600... so I had to use the D850. Will there be any image quality difference in the D850 vs. the Z8... none. Is the Z8 better for Birds in Flight... it sure is... but the D850 is not bad. If I had to get a new camera today and only had enough cash to get the D850, that would be my choice. If I had the money for the Z8... that would be my choice. anything that you want to do with the D850 can be done on the Z8 and nearly vice-versa... there is no pre or post capture on the D850... would that be nice, sure, it is is not the end of the world to be without it. The Z8 can trap shoot... if you have the z lenses... but not with F mounts. The D850 can shoot your flash, the Z8 can not.
They are very close in their abilities, but they are not exact. The D850 will not give you much return when you go to sell it, the Z8 will give you more.... but either way... you really cant go wrong. pick your kool-aid and drink it with a big smile on your face all the while it is quenching your thirst! Enjoy which ever you get!
On this detail, while I have never owned the SB 600 my SB 800, SB 900 and R1C1 work seamlessly with my Z8 and Z9