Nikon Z8-Autofocus or trap focus for songbirds in flight?

[Many Feathers]

I have been reading and re-reading the autofocus threads and handing off autofocus a lot. I feel like I'm taking a college course. THANKS to Steve Perry for his incredible book on the Z8 and all the discussions here. I could not understand this without your help

Is it possible for the Z8 to autofocus on songbirds in flight? Or should I just be using trap focus?

My setup is simple backyard birdfeeders. I love watching them and learning their personalities etc. Throughout the spring and summer, I see birds courting, then taking mouthfuls of worms and flying off to feed their babies somewhere and then their babies landing in the big tree behind the feeders. This is the best because those babies make so much noise and frequently the parents will take the food directly to them. Eventually the babies learn to land on the feeders and that's fun to watch and photograph. My point being, I kind of learn what some of the birds are probably going to do. For example, at this time in my area, bluebird parents are getting worms to feed their babies somewhere else. Both male and female land on the telephone wire. Female will probably go to the open feeder while the male likes to go to the caged feeder. Sometimes he flies/hovers on the outside of the cage before entering (especially if there's another bird inside). I've gotten some "flying" photos in that instance, although the bird is more "vertical"/hovering than "horizontal" flying, if that makes any sense. Sometimes the daddy gets the worms, and perches for a second before flying horizontally away from the cage. The cage width is maybe 15 inches wide. I'm shooting with the 100-400mm lens (usually at 300 or 400mm) around 15-17 feet away so not much DOF. If I lock focus when the bird is perching on the edge of the cage, is it possible for the camera to track him flying? Or should I just let go of Autofocus (after obtaining focus on the perching bird or the cage) and hope that at some time, he'll fly in the focal plane?

I guess I'm asking is how fast is the autofocus? Could it focus on a bluebird in flight? If yes, could it focus on a chickadee or nuthatch or house wren in flight? If no, could it focus on a larger robin or catbird, for example? At what point do you give up on autofocus tracking and just use trap focus?

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I have been reading and re-reading the autofocus threads and handing off autofocus a lot. I feel like I'm taking a college course. THANKS to Steve Perry for his incredible book on the Z8 and all the discussions here. I could not understand this without your help

Is it possible for the Z8 to autofocus on songbirds in flight? Or should I just be using trap focus?

If you are ONLY seeking to shoot birds at your feeder then I would use Manual Focus with sufficient DOF to capture the birds -- this removes any risk focus will be pulled away -- so trap focus or Zone focus if you prefer. I use this with the Z9's new Auto-Capture function now added as part of FW 4.0 with my feeder where bright objects in the road behind the feeder can pull AF. BUT your lens has to have a A/MF slider for this to work. See below.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Look in the AC technical Guide from the Nikon Download Centre for a series of examples.

I guess I'm asking is how fast is the autofocus? Could it focus on a bluebird in flight? If yes, could it focus on a chickadee or nuthatch or house wren in flight? If no, could it focus on a larger robin or catbird, for example? At what point do you give up on autofocus tracking and just use trap focus?

Of course it is fast using the latest Z mount S-line glass -- but bird size and relative contrast to the background is key -- you will have to try and see how you get on.

 

[Many Feathers]

If you are ONLY seeking to shoot birds at your feeder then I would use Manual Focus with sufficient DOF to capture the birds -- this removes any risk focus will be pulled away -- so trap focus or Zone focus if you prefer. I use this with the Z9's new Auto-Capture function now added as part of FW 4.0 with my feeder where bright objects in the road behind the feeder can pull AF. BUT your lens has to have a A/MF slider for this to work. See below.

Look in the AC technical Guide from the Nikon Download Centre for a series of examples.


Of course it is fast using the latest Z mount S-line glass -- but bird size and relative contrast to the background is key -- you will have to try and see how you get on.

View attachment 63590

Andy, I have the Z8, so can't use auto-capture (maybe in the future? . I'm curious as to how Auto-Capture at your feeders is working.

I think I'd be wasting my time trying to get a songbird in flight in focus through manual focus, unless using trap or zone focus. I can't even see them in the viewfinder for more than a second. How could I manually focus? Can anyone? Perhaps I'm just not skilled enough and should practice. Still, I don't want to waste time doing something that is pretty much impossible (if it is indeed impossible). That's why I'm asking the question...

I have the Z8 and the Z 100-400. Can that equipment autofocus on a songbird in flight at 15-17 feet away with a contrasty bird to a faraway background? Or to a sky background? Perhaps it's not been tried yet. Or not documented. If it's possible, I'll practice. I've been playing with pre-capture too, but it seems like the first photo (the one where's he's perched on the cage) is in focus and then they just get more and more out-of-focus. So I'm thinking either I have the wrong settings or the Z8 and Z 100-400 isn't capable of focusing that fast. Do I put my efforts in trap focus? Or keep trying different autofocus techniques? Is there a book or tutorial that includes focusing on songbirds in flight?

Thanks again for your comments. You've helped me understand the Z8 focus system throughout many of your posts.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

Andy, I have the Z8, so can't use auto-capture (maybe in the future? . I'm curious as to how Auto-Capture at your feeders is working.

I think I'd be wasting my time trying to get a songbird in flight in focus through manual focus, unless using trap or zone focus. I can't even see them in the viewfinder for more than a second. How could I manually focus? Can anyone? Perhaps I'm just not skilled enough and should practice. Still, I don't want to waste time doing something that is pretty much impossible (if it is indeed impossible). That's why I'm asking the question...

I have the Z8 and the Z 100-400. Can that equipment autofocus on a songbird in flight at 15-17 feet away with a contrasty bird to a faraway background? Or to a sky background? Perhaps it's not been tried yet. Or not documented. If it's possible, I'll practice. I've been playing with pre-capture too, but it seems like the first photo (the one where's he's perched on the cage) is in focus and then they just get more and more out-of-focus. So I'm thinking either I have the wrong settings or the Z8 and Z 100-400 isn't capable of focusing that fast. Do I put my efforts in trap focus? Or keep trying different autofocus techniques? Is there a book or tutorial that includes focusing on songbirds in flight?

Thanks again for your comments. You've helped me understand the Z8 focus system throughout many of your posts.

It works fine — except the minimum focus distance for AC is much much greater than that of the lens — 8m for my 400/2.8mTC and 11m when the ITC is engaged -560mm

 

[mdirvin]

I do a lot of backyard bird photography. I have found that autofocus tracking just does not work for me. These little guys are so fast its over before you can even think about tracking and pressing their shutter. In 1 to 2 seconds they can traverse my entire yard. Since you know their pattern a focus trap is a good option. I don't think auto-capture is available on the z8 (?). I have a Z9, as soon as my bluebird eggs hatch I will be playing with the auto-capture feature focusing on the approach to the bird house. In the mean time I'm gong to set up a suet feeder to try and capture some woodpeckers. What I have used, and does work just a bit more cumbersome to set up is:

Sabre

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I place it on the approach path to a bird house. Once the eggs have hatched I have a constant flow of traffic in and out for a few weeks. Then the bigger problem is the weather. Nice to have an overcast day rather than direct sunlight...

 

[John Navitsky]

Andy, I have the Z8, so can't use auto-capture (maybe in the future? .

yes, nikon people have stated it’s coming to the z8

 

[BillW]

Andy, I have the Z8, so can't use auto-capture (maybe in the future? . I'm curious as to how Auto-Capture at your feeders is working.

I think I'd be wasting my time trying to get a songbird in flight in focus through manual focus, unless using trap or zone focus. I can't even see them in the viewfinder for more than a second. How could I manually focus? Can anyone? Perhaps I'm just not skilled enough and should practice. Still, I don't want to waste time doing something that is pretty much impossible (if it is indeed impossible). That's why I'm asking the question...

I have the Z8 and the Z 100-400. Can that equipment autofocus on a songbird in flight at 15-17 feet away with a contrasty bird to a faraway background? Or to a sky background? Perhaps it's not been tried yet. Or not documented. If it's possible, I'll practice. I've been playing with pre-capture too, but it seems like the first photo (the one where's he's perched on the cage) is in focus and then they just get more and more out-of-focus. So I'm thinking either I have the wrong settings or the Z8 and Z 100-400 isn't capable of focusing that fast. Do I put my efforts in trap focus? Or keep trying different autofocus techniques? Is there a book or tutorial that includes focusing on songbirds in flight?

Thanks again for your comments. You've helped me understand the Z8 focus system throughout many of your posts.

According to Photopils, at 15 feet and 400 mm on a Nikon Z9 (Z8 should be the same for this purpose), your field of view is 16 inches wide by 11 inches tall. How big are the songbirds you want to photograph? Smaller in the frame is more difficult, but the AF algorithms have been improving.

I have had a Z9 since January, 2022. Just got my Z8 last month, so I have not used the Z8 much for birds in flight yet. I expect it will be very similar to the Z9.

You mention that the birds are contrasty with a far away background or the sky as background. That should be helpful.

I tend to use a lens longer than 400 mm for smaller birds, say warblers or swallows. I've used the 500 mm PF (often with a TC), the Z 400 f4.5 with a Z TC, or the Z 800 mm PF. With the Z9, in most cases, if I can keep the bird in the frame, the Z9 AF will focus on it. I often use Wide Area large or a Custom Wide Area and sometimes hand-off to 3D. In some circumstances, I've used Auto area with success (say swallows flying fast and erratically over water).

I agree that manual focus would be tough for flying birds. But AF on birds in flight works well with the Z9 and I would expect the same for the Z8. So I definitely think it is possible and you should try it. I also think photographing birds in flight can be difficult and takes practice. My cameras seem to get better at it as I use them more. So don't get discouraged and keep trying.

 

[arbitrage]

I think you will have your best chance by using the Z8's pre-capture feature. You won't get a RAW file but you can still get a large jpeg if you stick to 30FPS.

When I had the Z9 I tried this on my final day with the camera and only spending 1/2hr attempting it I got a bunch of flight shots of finches.

Not sure how the AutoCapture will fare.

The Z9/8 may be able to track a bird launching towards a feeder from a nearby perch (or the opposite way) but when I tried it was a tough task for the AF system.

No matter which mode you try, the camera will have an easier time if the bird is flying horizontally across the FOV instead of towards you. But as you can see below, I like to push my luck!!

Here are a few shots I got in that 1/2hr attempt with the Z9 pre-capture mode (I think these were either 60FPS or 120FPS):

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Many Feathers]

According to Photopils, at 15 feet and 400 mm on a Nikon Z9 (Z8 should be the same for this purpose), your field of view is 16 inches wide by 11 inches tall. How big are the songbirds you want to photograph? Smaller in the frame is more difficult, but the AF algorithms have been improving.

I have had a Z9 since January, 2022. Just got my Z8 last month, so I have not used the Z8 much for birds in flight yet. I expect it will be very similar to the Z9.

You mention that the birds are contrasty with a far away background or the sky as background. That should be helpful.

I tend to use a lens longer than 400 mm for smaller birds, say warblers or swallows. I've used the 500 mm PF (often with a TC), the Z 400 f4.5 with a Z TC, or the Z 800 mm PF. With the Z9, in most cases, if I can keep the bird in the frame, the Z9 AF will focus on it. I often use Wide Area large or a Custom Wide Area and sometimes hand-off to 3D. In some circumstances, I've used Auto area with success (say swallows flying fast and erratically over water).

I agree that manual focus would be tough for flying birds. But AF on birds in flight works well with the Z9 and I would expect the same for the Z8. So I definitely think it is possible and you should try it. I also think photographing birds in flight can be difficult and takes practice. My cameras seem to get better at it as I use them more. So don't get discouraged and keep trying.

Thanks for your reply. A Bluebird is 6-8 inches in length. I looked up Photopils...nice website. It said the DOF at 15 feet for 400mm at f/7.1 is 2 inches.

I give you lots of kudos for being able to keep warblers or swallows in the viewfinder with those large lenses. Guess I just need more practice Thanks again. I'll keep on trying and love every minute

 

[Many Feathers]

I think you will have your best chance by using the Z8's pre-capture feature. You won't get a RAW file but you can still get a large jpeg if you stick to 30FPS.

When I had the Z9 I tried this on my final day with the camera and only spending 1/2hr attempting it I got a bunch of flight shots of finches.

Not sure how the AutoCapture will fare.

The Z9/8 may be able to track a bird launching towards a feeder from a nearby perch (or the opposite way) but when I tried it was a tough task for the AF system.

No matter which mode you try, the camera will have an easier time if the bird is flying horizontally across the FOV instead of towards you. But as you can see below, I like to push my luck!!

Here are a few shots I got in that 1/2hr attempt with the Z9 pre-capture mode (I think these were either 60FPS or 120FPS):

View attachment 63653View attachment 63654View attachment 63655

Those are wonderful! I notice you're using very fast shutter speeds... perhaps that's part of my problem. I'm trying at around 1/1600....today I went to 1/3200. You're at 1/4000 or 1/6400. I will try higher shutter speeds tomorrow should the sun cooperate Thanks much! Awesome!!!!

 

[arbitrage]

Those are wonderful! I notice you're using very fast shutter speeds... perhaps that's part of my problem. I'm trying at around 1/1600....today I went to 1/3200. You're at 1/4000 or 1/6400. I will try higher shutter speeds tomorrow should the sun cooperate Thanks much! Awesome!!!!

Yes, go as fast as possible. Especially if they are coming towards you. If side to side then 1/2500 may be enough but the faster the better.

 

[BillW]

Thanks for your reply. A Bluebird is 6-8 inches in length. I looked up Photopils...nice website. It said the DOF at 15 feet for 400mm at f/7.1 is 2 inches.

I give you lots of kudos for being able to keep warblers or swallows in the viewfinder with those large lenses. Guess I just need more practice Thanks again. I'll keep on trying and love every minute

PhotoPills has an app version that I use on my iPhone and iPad. Assume there is an Android version too.

I have trouble keeping small, fast erratic flying birds in the frame. But have fun trying even if I have some frames without a bird or with only part of a bird. Practice really helps here.

I also enjoy photographing larger birds in flight like eagles, osprey, herons, egrets, swans and cranes. Even though slower, I think this is also good practice and fun.

I find precapture helpful in trying to get good shots of a bird taking off. I wish it offered raw or HE* raw.

 

[Many Feathers]

PhotoPills has an app version that I use on my iPhone and iPad. Assume there is an Android version too.

I have trouble keeping small, fast erratic flying birds in the frame. But have fun trying even if I have some frames without a bird or with only part of a bird. Practice really helps here.

I also enjoy photographing larger birds in flight like eagles, osprey, herons, egrets, swans and cranes. Even though slower, I think this is also good practice and fun.

I find precapture helpful in trying to get good shots of a bird taking off. I wish it offered raw or HE* raw.

Thanks BillW, I'll go look for the Android app for PhotoPills

 

[Many Feathers]

I think you will have your best chance by using the Z8's pre-capture feature. You won't get a RAW file but you can still get a large jpeg if you stick to 30FPS.

When I had the Z9 I tried this on my final day with the camera and only spending 1/2hr attempting it I got a bunch of flight shots of finches.

Not sure how the AutoCapture will fare.

The Z9/8 may be able to track a bird launching towards a feeder from a nearby perch (or the opposite way) but when I tried it was a tough task for the AF system.

No matter which mode you try, the camera will have an easier time if the bird is flying horizontally across the FOV instead of towards you. But as you can see below, I like to push my luck!!

Here are a few shots I got in that 1/2hr attempt with the Z9 pre-capture mode (I think these were either 60FPS or 120FPS):

View attachment 63653View attachment 63654View attachment 63655

I've been thinking over night, Arbitrage, these are really good. Do you remember what setting you had for A3-Focus Tracking with Lockon?

 

[uday592]

Can someone send me the manual on using Autocapture for Z9

 

[mdirvin]

Download the Supplementary Firmware Update Manual from Nikon:

Nikon | Download center | Z 9

 

[uday592]

Download the Supplementary Firmware Update Manual from Nikon:

Nikon | Download center | Z 9

Thank you

 

[Piecat]

I think you will have your best chance by using the Z8's pre-capture feature. You won't get a RAW file but you can still get a large jpeg if you stick to 30FPS.

When I had the Z9 I tried this on my final day with the camera and only spending 1/2hr attempting it I got a bunch of flight shots of finches.

Not sure how the AutoCapture will fare.

The Z9/8 may be able to track a bird launching towards a feeder from a nearby perch (or the opposite way) but when I tried it was a tough task for the AF system.

No matter which mode you try, the camera will have an easier time if the bird is flying horizontally across the FOV instead of towards you. But as you can see below, I like to push my luck!!

Here are a few shots I got in that 1/2hr attempt with the Z9 pre-capture mode (I think these were either 60FPS or 120FPS):

View attachment 63653View attachment 63654View attachment 63655

 

[Piecat]

Your BIFs are close and great. With the new Z lens I would have to get a mirrorless camera. I currently use a D500. Tracking can be tricky and would like at least 9 FPS in a continuous high mode. Not a pro but not beginner either. Switched from canon to Nikon because I really liked the menus and touch /back screen. Just easier for me.
Any advice? Notice your gear is Sony too!

 

[arbitrage]

Your BIFs are close and great. With the new Z lens I would have to get a mirrorless camera. I currently use a D500. Tracking can be tricky and would like at least 9 FPS in a continuous high mode. Not a pro but not beginner either. Switched from canon to Nikon because I really liked the menus and touch /back screen. Just easier for me.
Any advice? Notice your gear is Sony too!

I was able to get some small feeder birds in flight with D500 and D850. Usually using Auto AF or 3D. Only because they were perching and then flying towards the feeders. Just lots of attempts to get a few sharp ones.

D500/200-500:
December 23, 2017-2.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
December 20, 2017-9.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
December 20, 2017.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
October 01, 2017.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
January 10, 2018.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
January 10, 2018-2.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
February 24, 2018-6.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

 

[Piecat]

Inspiring TY. What lens?
I’m guessing a fast prime, due to the clarity.

 

[arbitrage]

Inspiring TY. What lens?
I’m guessing a fast prime, due to the clarity.

I had listed the lens and camera above each photo.
All with D500.
First four with 200-500 and last three 300PF.

 

[Many Feathers]

I was able to get some small feeder birds in flight with D500 and D850. Usually using Auto AF or 3D. Only because they were perching and then flying towards the feeders. Just lots of attempts to get a few sharp ones.

D500/200-500:
December 23, 2017-2.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
December 20, 2017-9.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
December 20, 2017.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/200-500
October 01, 2017.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
January 10, 2018.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
January 10, 2018-2.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500/300PF
February 24, 2018-6.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

Arbitrage, you be incredible!!! I'm still working on it. I've gotten a few. I'll keep trying. Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[ARClark]

I think you will have your best chance by using the Z8's pre-capture feature. You won't get a RAW file but you can still get a large jpeg if you stick to 30FPS.

When I had the Z9 I tried this on my final day with the camera and only spending 1/2hr attempting it I got a bunch of flight shots of finches.

Not sure how the AutoCapture will fare.

The Z9/8 may be able to track a bird launching towards a feeder from a nearby perch (or the opposite way) but when I tried it was a tough task for the AF system.

No matter which mode you try, the camera will have an easier time if the bird is flying horizontally across the FOV instead of towards you. But as you can see below, I like to push my luck!!

Here are a few shots I got in that 1/2hr attempt with the Z9 pre-capture mode (I think these were either 60FPS or 120FPS):

View attachment 63653View attachment 63654View attachment 63655

Really nice demonstration of the pre-capture!

 

[ARClark]

I had listed the lens and camera above each photo.
All with D500.
First four with 200-500 and last three 300PF.

Nice work! And some people say the 200-500 is not fast enough to capture birds in flight.