Roy
Well-known member
Yes - underexpose to stop washing out the highlights.
photo suggestions needed
- Thread starter balex78
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain. It makes great sense and I can see how it can become like a reflex with practice. I’m going out today to test a new lens and I’ll start giving it a try. Being aware of changes in light is easy enough but identifying medium gray tones or substitutes could be a challenge. I have a mental picture of medium gray, identifying it in the field is a little different. In the past I’ve used rocks and I’d never thought of using a bright blue sky. That’ll be my first test. Thanks again, you have me thinking. Much appreciated.
Another nice learning tool is to shoot a color card that includes a greyscale. For example color checker passport. You can meter off the grey patch in the same light to see what the camera meter is doing. There still might be times where placing middle grey in the middle of the scene results in a blown highlight. Know thine own gear.
Absolutely key, “know thine own gear.” Just bought the Z9 and while there are similarities to my 850 and D5 in many ways it’s a completely new beast. Combining that with moving to true full manual is going to be very interesting, but I want to be proficient with both by the time I head back to Yellowstone in June. Also, I’m thinking, based on all I’ve read here, there are times to switch to auto ISO in rapidly changing light and, in full manual, shooting into shadows and bright highlights will also be a challenge I’m thinking. But that’s what the experimentation will be all about. Looking forward to it. Thanks for your advice. Much appreciate.
balex78
New member
thanks guys. By locking your exposure you mean use spot meter mode, point your camera to a sunlit medium grey thing in the scene, focus on it, then adjust ISO to get the meter needle perfectly centered, and then use that iso value for every shot you take on that day, as long as the light is still there and doesn't change.
Is this all correct?
thanks
Alex
Is this all correct?
thanks
Alex
All 3 settings affect the brightness of the final image. Not just iso. So an equivalent brightness can be gotten by any combination that gives the same exposure value. Locking exposure how I was talking about it just meant pushing a camera button that froze the current f stop, shutter speed, and ISO, but the same thing can be done in full manual mode. I guess the big idea is to find the exposure value that puts the highlights where you want them, then keep using that same EV until the light changes.
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No - not quite. You don't need to spot meter but that is one approach. You don't need to only use mid-gray. You certainly don't need to center the exposure indicator.
Locking in your exposure is usually simply entering the correct values into a manual exposure setting. You can choose any manual or automated mode you want but the "correct" exposure is going to be approximately the same with all approaches.
If you are trying to center the indicator, you are effectively using an automated mode with all the metering issues we have discussed. Ignore the indicator for the purpose of setting a correct exposure.
Choosing to use a mid-gray, white, or black target for spot metering is one approach. With practice it works. But it's a lot easier to use other approaches. For example, you could spot meter something white and add two stops then adjust. You could also take a test image and look at the blinking highlights, then adjust exposure and take a couple of addiitonal test shots to the point where blinking highlights are minimal.
This is what Steve’s site is all about! I’ve got the concept but the details are yet to be worked out, well, at least for me. At the risk of straining patience and beating a dead horse, the way I was going to start is to determine whether I had a continuous source of consistent light, if so, shut off auto ISO and switch to single point exposure, consider my targets color/brightness and speed, anticipate the backgrounds I’ll be shooting against (color/brightness, and distance). Then assuming my subject will be a BIF , then first estimate the highest ISO I could accept, as a starting point only , set my aperture where I think I’d like it, measure off a med gray, black or white object and set shutter speed accordingly. Test shoot, adjust any of the three values (which ever is most important to the shot) until I had the right exposure based on the histogram not the meter. Then, as suggested, if I want to change any setting I’d just need to compensate (do the opposite) with any other setting to balance. Sounds ridiculously hard, but will actually be very easy once I’ve got it locked in my brain and muscle memory. Then if not a BIF but a portrait my initial consideration would be how slow not fast an ISO can I stand and what aperture would I want then shutter speed would just follow. If this works out, next concern in either case is will my subject be mid gray, brighter or darker, and experience will tell me to adjust up or down the one setting least important to the shot to compensate and lock the exposure for the photo. If this is too crazy, just ignore it, and I’ll pull it together in the field, maybe!
Directionally this is correct, but you can make it a lot easier.
If you have constant light levels, simply make one or two good test exposures using the method of your choice. Once you know what those settings are for a good exposure, set them up as your manual exposure settings.
Don't get bogged down on spot metering, center weighted, gray cards, exposure compensation or midtone targets. It does not matter as long as you figure out a correct exposure and use that for your Manual Exposure settings.
If the light level changes, adjustments can be as simple as guessing on a stop more or less, or you can quickly invoke an automated approach like Auto ISO, Aperture, or Shutter priority. My first choice is usually Auto ISO because it can be executed very quickly, but with any automated approach you introduce the need for exposure compensation.
Chad Huff
Well-known member
It CAN mean that, but doesn't HAVE to. For starters, you can adjust exposure by any of shutter speed, aperture, or ISO... Its not just ISO that is your tool. Depending on what your artistic vision is with a given shot, you might want to adjust your shutter speed for instance (maybe you want some motion blur, so you shoot a slow shutter speed) or maybe you have several elk in a shot and you want them all sharp so you'll have to increase your depth of field by stopping down your aperture... Any and all of that is possible. Personally, when I look at a scene that is my first step... I decide what I want to do with what I am looking at, then I set the most important factor in the process to achieve that (which changes depending on what you want to do) where it needs to be... From there I meter off something that is medium grey (or really ANY tonality once you learn how far over or under medium grey that tonality is). Once that exposure is right I don't really worry much about background, that doesn't change the exposure at all IMO (it only does if you shot some kind of program mode, but other than that white is white, black is black and the shadows and highlights are all somewhere in between).
What does "Locking in an exposure" mean?... Again, I think people are using it at least a couple different ways. If you are truly shooting full manual then it is just setting a correct exposure. If you are shooting Manual with Auto ISO (or another program mode), and you want to lock in an exposure, you will have to set a button on your camera to enable the "exposure lock" feature... Steve covers where that function can be found in the Nikon menu on each of his Nikon body reviews, so look for his review on your particular Nikon or Sony body... With the exposure lock function enabled, even if you are shooting manual with auto ISO, once you "lock" your exposure, it will stay the way you locked it, regardless of what your meter in the viewfinder says, until you either turn off your camera, disable the lock, or the function times out (which you can also set how long that is).
I know it sounds complicated, I used to think so too, but it really isn't at all. I think I said in an earlier post that when you think about it, generally at least one, maybe two of the exposure variables are pretty constant for most of us (especially with pro-summer lenses of f/4 or greater where we generally shoot wide open except if we want to get more subjects in focus). Once that one variable is determined, you have two left to think about... ISO you will generally want as low as you can get it while still allowing sufficient shutter speed... You'll learn your particular gear and your personal abilities to shoot with a steady hand (or maybe you're using a tripod) and you'll set the ISO to allow the shutter speed necessary... If all that is true (which I find it to be a lot) then we are really almost shooting "shutter priority" most of the time... We increase or decrease the shutter speed for a given subject to allow the lowest possible ISO.
Chad Huff
Well-known member
Thanks to @EricBowles and @Chad Huff for the advice and information on going full manual. The discussion has given me a a lot to think about and work on and has been a walk through the interrelationships of the camera settings on exposure and ultimately composition. It may be simple once ingrained but the interplay of the three settings and it’s effects on exposure and composition takes time to digest, understand, and then commit to memory. Thanks again guys, much appreciated.
balex78
New member
Thank you very much everybody! One last question...
if I calculate my correct exposure off a middle toned object with spot metering, could I then switch to matrix for taking all the shots with that same exposure or should I stick to spot metering , since the correct exposure has been calculated with that mode?
What colors are considered middle toned, apart from grey and "grass" green? Could orange "brick" work too? What other colors?
Thanks
Alex
if I calculate my correct exposure off a middle toned object with spot metering, could I then switch to matrix for taking all the shots with that same exposure or should I stick to spot metering , since the correct exposure has been calculated with that mode?
What colors are considered middle toned, apart from grey and "grass" green? Could orange "brick" work too? What other colors?
Thanks
Alex
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Roy
Well-known member
Im only a product photographer but I do love shooting wildlife too.
A spot meter is best for a single image.
Use an incident meter at the subject and you can usually stick with the same settings until you move on or the light changes.
If you dont have an incident meter then a gray card works nearly as well.
It may be a studio thing but my first shot of each set is of a colorchecker passport - It makes it much quicker in post...
If you are using any auto exposure mode, even manual with auto iso, every time you point the camera and press the shutter will give a new exposure based on what the camera sees at the moment the shot is taken.(unless you are using a single shot mode in which case the half press is temporarily holding on to the exposure) , unless you press the exposure lock button to lock that exposure. If you are shooting full manual nothing changes unless you tell it to change, so no need for exposure lock.
So if you have the camera on spot meter in an auto mode, as it points at different spots the exposure will keep changing unless you press the exposure lock button. The meter will try to darken a bright spot to bring it to the middle and it will try to lighten a dark spot to bring it to the middle. If you are in full manual exposure then you could point at a middle tone and set the exposure and it will stay where you put it.
So to answer you question, you can only be in one type of metering at a time. And your capture can only be at one level of overall brightness when the shutter is pressed. It doesnt matter how you arrived at that level. When you are spot metering the meter is trying to bring the spot to the middle. When you are in matrix the meter is evaluating the whole scene and setting the exposure. But it can't do both at the same time, so when you switch it's a new ballgame and nothing you did previously has any impact going forward, unless you have some exposure compensation set, in which whatever the meter reads will be adjusted by that amount.
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Adding to the other responses, if you are using full manual exposure you don't need to worry about metering until the light changes and you want to meter again.
A northern blue sky or green grass are better than a brick wall. The camera emphasizes green and blue with minor emphasis on red (which includes yellow, orange, pink, and fuschia) for the purpose of metering. So a brick wall would be the least accurate approach. Just keep in mind that a blue sky toward the north in Colorado is very different than a blue sky in Florida where you have more atmospheric haze. Likewise green grass can be highly reflective with lots of specular highlights, or it can be lighter or darker shades of green. None of these approaches is perfect - you'll need a test exposure and then adjust as needed. What you really want is a bright exposure with no blown highlights (or minimal blown highlights) on your subject.
As I read this thread I find it interesting how there are differences and similarities in what we all do and I ponder how the advice will work when I shoot wildlife as I think there are many seasoned wildlife photographers on this forum. In my experience with wildlife, birds or mammals, there is no time to set up a gray card or color checker, although I do have both. Maybe if I was in a hide with sitting birds this could work but I don't actually think so. Recently, as I was weaving through the crowd watching a wolf trot a very short distance away at Yellowstone my only thought was to get an acceptable (in the ballpark) exposure and a good position on the wolf to get the shot, there was no time to fiddle with anything. In the car I had set my camera settings, using manual settings, to a high enough shutter speed (given the existing variables) that I hoped was sufficient to get any action, a wide open (f/5.6 was max) aperture, and an ISO reading that I hoped was correct with my camera set to matrix metering as there was both open ground and snow. Getting the settings right in the camera is dependent upon knowing the camera and what it can do, as someone else has said, and my camera settings were not the same as someone else's on the trip but were similar. I'm not too worried these days about the lowest ISO possible but I am worried about a blurred shot that is useless. I do quickly check the histogram on the back of the camera to ensure I'm in the ballpark. At Yellowstone the light was always changing as the morning sun rose and we drove back and forth between plains and forest. Finally, after a couple of bad shots that blown out I corrected the approach and put the camera on auto-ISO and I was glad I did when we came upon a red fox in the snow that gave us a good shoot. Photographing wildlife is a challenge and the scenes we come upon are never exactly the same but knowing one's camera and the basis settings for wildlife will get the shooter in the ballpark, checking your camera histogram often and knowing what to do to correct the shot are essential. If shooting a white subject meter for the highlights, i.e., the white subject, use +/- exposure compensation if using a setting other than manual or reset the ISO if in manual. Experience is the best teacher for all of this.
balex78
New member
thanks but maybe I didn't explain myself correctly.
I'm in full manual mode, so I start choosing my aperture and shutter speed for my BIF shots. Then, just out of curiosity, instead of taking test shot, I decide to choose the correct ISO value for my correct exposure by spot metering a middle toned object in the scene. Ok , now I have found my correct ISO number with which I can shoot every subjects and I have all the 3 ingredients for a correct exposure , assuming the light does not change. Can I now switch to matrix using that same ISO value (and of course my aperture and shutter speed I chose at the beginning) I found with spot metering ? Does it change anything in my exposure, assuming that light won't be changing?
so, If a spot meter to find the correct exposure, then do I have to stick to the spot metering mode? Can't I change my mode to matrix with the same shutter speed, aperture and ISO value I just found correct for the scene?
I'm in full manual mode, so I start choosing my aperture and shutter speed for my BIF shots. Then, just out of curiosity, instead of taking test shot, I decide to choose the correct ISO value for my correct exposure by spot metering a middle toned object in the scene. Ok , now I have found my correct ISO number with which I can shoot every subjects and I have all the 3 ingredients for a correct exposure , assuming the light does not change. Can I now switch to matrix using that same ISO value (and of course my aperture and shutter speed I chose at the beginning) I found with spot metering ? Does it change anything in my exposure, assuming that light won't be changing?
so, If a spot meter to find the correct exposure, then do I have to stick to the spot metering mode? Can't I change my mode to matrix with the same shutter speed, aperture and ISO value I just found correct for the scene?
Once you have your correct full manual exposure settings, you don't need to meeter at all. Any metering mode will do because you are largely ignoring metering unless light on your subject changes.
Determining the correct settings does not require Spot metering - it's just an option that can let you choose a good metering target rather than the "black box" and intelligence of weightings across the frame with matrix or center weighted.
balex78
New member
So once I gained the correct full manual settings , I'm the one making the exposure and it doesn't matter If I continuosly change metering mode because the camera will simply ignore any metering mode in full manual mode. Is that correct?
So the metering mode only comes into play with automatic or semi-automatic modes , like P , S, A and M with AUTO ISO?
You said you shoot jpeg so that's a good example. When you press the shutter the software in the camera uses all the settings that are active at that moment to make the exposure and to ultimately create the jpeg. It doesn't care how you arrived at the settings or which metering mode or exposure mode you used to help you make your decision, it just knows at that moment you chose to have iso at A, shutter speed at B, f number at C, exposure compensation at D, and so on.
Even in full manual mode you still see whether your meter is centered or if the meter think you should adjust up or down, but it gives you the ability to easily override what is indicated by the metering system and go above or below the center on purpose. You can also override most of the automatic exposure modes, using exposure compensation or exposure lock.
You will certainly have an 'aha' moment when it all clicks and doesnt seem as complicated. Just keep shooting and having fun.
dwillar
Active member
Assuming we are in manual mode with the settings that accompany the photo, could we get some feedback from some of you local experts about how much negative EC you would dial in to fix the exposure? Seems to me, a simple answer to this question would be far more productive for the OP than pages of theory that may be beyond the current level of understanding of the OP. This same problem comes up in many posts on this forum and I have never seen anyone reply with "Dial in -1.7 EC and re shoot the frame." Compare the images and adjust accordingly. Leave the final EC in effect as long as light and subject matter does not change. Just wondering if this would be a better way to solve this particular problem? 
Roy
Well-known member
Spot metering is to estimate the brightest and darkest parts of an image and then estimate exposure from there..
The spot meter function in a camera isn't nearly as accurate as a light meter.
An incident meter gives an accurate enough exposure to shoot manual until the next set of images or the light changes...
Assuming we are in manual mode with the settings that accompany the photo, could we get some feedback from some of you local experts about how much negative EC you would dial in to fix the exposure? Seems to me, a simple answer to this question would be far more productive for the OP than pages of theory that may be beyond the current level of understanding of the OP. This same problem comes up in many posts on this forum and I have never seen anyone reply with "Dial in -1.7 EC and re shoot the frame." Compare the images and adjust accordingly. Leave the final EC in effect as long as light and subject matter does not change. Just wondering if this would be a better way to solve this particular problem?
In hindsight with plenty of time to reflect (see what I did there?) It's easy to see what went wrong. Given the OP description it seems the light was around an EV of 15 or 16. The camera was set for around 13, so it ended up being 2 to 3 stops overexposed and the highlights got clipped beyond recovery. But in the field there isn't always time to reflect, so a reliable and relatively fast method is need to prevent clipping. A lot of good ideas were given. One of the best is a test shot at the metered exposure and a quick peek to see if the blinkies are flashing. If so lower the brightness via iso if possible either with exposure compensation or with full manual.
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dwillar
Active member
Thanks Bill. I think I need to go play with my camera now. I have had the same problem with the same subject matter as the OP. All the things I have tried seem to have a hit or miss effect so I am aware of the frustration of trying to get a proper exposure in less than stellar conditions. My D850 lives in manual mode and has ever since I first put it there. My reasoning was, if I am ever going to meet my self imposed expectations, I must take full responsibility not only for my camera but also for getting the best from current conditions and being constantly aware of my composition. It is not easy but sure is fun when it comes out right! Your post has given me a new idea for better understanding my craft. Thanks! 