Slow or instant success?

[Mr F Stop.]

Here's something I have been thinking about (yes too much time on my hands) and that is, in the days of instant results where photographers can, if they choose get the latest gear, a course, and then hire a pro to take them to a great place at the right time and point them at that stunning vista. Bang, they have "The shot". Or is it better to take that slow steady journey, learning and developing an original take on photography. I have watch countless tutorials and done a few online courses only to find that you are in fact learning someone else's style and not developing your own? Me, I would rather stumble on a un known lesser beauty than being taken to an iconic one by a guide. I know it's not always the case but I would like to think I am the first to take this shot. You only have to google Iceland or Yosemite to see hundreds of folk all with their cameras pointing at the same thing, so I guess I am the odd one out. Or am I?

 

[Steve W]

They are all pointing at the same things because that’s where the nearest car parks and signed, easily accessible areas are. People prepared to walk / hike will always find a different perspective. Some shots take effort, planning, timing, patience.

 

[jeffnles1]

My take on courses/tutorials is everyone has to start somewhere. One must first learn the basics of exposure, composition, and technique before developing his/her own style. If a person is interested in wildlife photography, he/she must also learn basic woodcraft, understand the animal's behavior, their environment and their daily habits and how those habits change during the seasons. None of us are "born" with those skills but they must be fine tuned and learned. A person can get a jump start on those skills through tutorials, books like the ones Steve publishes and from hiring a guide. If a person buys the most expensive, latest/greatest equipment and their only interest is snagging a couple iconic shots, I have no problem with it but I do think they are missing out on much of the joy nature photography can bring.



Jeff

 

[SandyW]

How do you learn if you don't start by imitating? Musician study the masters. Artists study the masters. That's why there were apprentices throughout history. Art, then photographs are all around us. You can't help but be influenced. You learn, then develop your own style.

Sure you can learn on your own. I did back in the days of film when there were only books to read for ideas. I built my own darkroom out of cardboard boxes and a borrowed enlarger when I was 13 thanks to a book. It wasn't until digital that I attended my first workshop and started watching tutorials. I learned so many new ideas it was almost sensory overload.

I am definitely more interested in my style, but I am always open to learning possibilities. Now I am lucky enough to be able (pre COVID) to go to beautiful locations by following a guide, but once there I take the "iconic" shot then start exploring on my own as much as local rules allow. Photography is my excuse to travel and make memories for myself. sometimes with a "leader" and sometimes on my own. At my age shortcuts to knowledge are necessary.

Post processing is my video game.

 

[pochito]

I have watch countless tutorials and done a few online courses only to find that you are in fact learning someone else's style and not developing your own?

Maybe you should learn the techniques and look at the world with your own eyes.
Your visualization is unique. You don't learn that in the tutorials, is part of yourself.
Great photography doesn't imply necessarily great vistas.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

How do you learn if you don't start by imitating? Musician study the masters. Artists study the masters. That's why there were apprentices throughout history. Art, then photographs are all around us. You can't help but be influenced. You learn, then develop your own style.

Sure you can learn on your own. I did back in the days of film when there were only books to read for ideas. I built my own darkroom out of cardboard boxes and a borrowed enlarger when I was 13 thanks to a book. It wasn't until digital that I attended my first workshop and started watching tutorials. I learned so many new ideas it was almost sensory overload.

I am definitely more interested in my style, but I am always open to learning possibilities. Now I am lucky enough to be able (pre COVID) to go to beautiful locations by following a guide, but once there I take the "iconic" shot then start exploring on my own as much as local rules allow. Photography is my excuse to travel and make memories for myself. sometimes with a "leader" and sometimes on my own. At my age shortcuts to knowledge are necessary.

Post processing is my video game.

Great answer.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

Maybe you should learn the techniques and look at the world with your own eyes.
Your visualization is unique. You don't learn that in the tutorials, is part of yourself.
Great photography doesn't imply necessarily great vistas.

I agree a great photo does n't have to be a great vista, I did n't imply that was the case. I was implying it was a short cut and easier way. Yes you must learn the techniques first and I think these should build slowly along side your visualization. Each challenging the other.

 

[PhilcTx]

Other avenues of photography education include local colleges/community colleges/trade-schools photography programs. Programs that are serious multi-week programs that go in depth.

One of the important things that these in-person photo classes provide (or should) are real-time serious personal/class critiques of your photo assignments by instructors (many times also working professionals) and fellow-students. At times you need a thick skin (the word "crap" will be used frequently) but it will really advance your skills. Developing your own style will come after learning correct basic techniques of image capture and composition.

There may critiques or "suggestions" in on-line courses and workshops - but it isn't the same.

 

[Strodav]

It's not an either or situation. Why not do both?

 

[DRwyoming]

It's not an either or situation. Why not do both?

Agreed, the opening post sets up a bit of a false dichotomy. Shooting the classic scenic views does not prohibit anyone from also seeking out unique views and getting away from the crowds.

so I guess I am the odd one out. Or am I?

Well I'd say a lot of us if not most photographers like finding a unique view whether that's a unique take on an iconic spot or something way off the beaten path but a lot of us also visit known wildlife hotspots and well known scenic viewpoints and doing one doesn't prohibit the other.

Starting with tried and true scenes and compositions is one of the ways we learn and grow as photographers. I'd also say there's no instant gratification even if you research and drive to the classic viewpoints or hire a wildlife guide to help you find subjects. You still have to make a lot of creative and technical decisions in the field and in post to create memorable images. You also have to find the right light and often the right weather to capture compelling images at those classic scenic views and it isn't just a matter of showing up with high end gear and snapping a photo.

But the value of hitting the classic scenic spots or going on photo tours or hiring a local wildlife guide when visiting new places is it gets you out in the field capturing images and that's the most important thing to learning and growing as a photographer. Nothing really instant about it even when taking this kind of path, there's still a lot to learn about composition, light, technical decisions and even things as simple as when NOT to take the photo when conditions don't line up. Getting out and shooting is essential for learning those things and more and if taking your own personal cut at a classic Ansel Adams viewpoint gets you out and shooting that's a good thing. Similarly if a wildlife photo tour or some time with a good wildlife guide teaches you things about animals, behaviors, habitat and when and where to find animals it will be very helpful when you're out on your own looking for subjects or alone with a subject trying to interpret behaviors (e.g. are you stressing that Moose and maybe need to back off a bit? Is your presence near a nest accepted or are you causing the adults to leave the chicks unattended and maybe you shouldn't be there?)

But sure, there's no reason anyone has to visit the hotspots and even if they do there's nothing stopping them from spending some or even the bulk of their field time seeking out unique views or wildlife in less visited locations. Personally I've shot the classic postcard locations here in the Tetons dozens to sometimes hundreds of times over the years and observed how the changing seasons, weather and light can yield very different images shot from the same basic vantage point but that's never stopped me from seeking out my own views and I spend more time away from those popular places than I do at them.

I'd also say for folks looking to get started and wondering where to take their new camera gear or to photographers stuck in a bit of a slump a visit to an iconic photo spot or a wildlife rich environment can be a great jump start to getting out and active behind the camera even if the shot or species has been captured countless times by others.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

It's not an either or situation. Why not do both?

I think you have missed the point of my post. Of course you can do both, and some do. I am talking about folk that don't and simply fast track to the good stuff and in my opinion miss out on the journey?

 

[Strodav]

I think you have missed the point of my post. Of course you can do both, and some do. I am talking about folk that don't and simply fast track to the good stuff and in my opinion miss out on the journey?

Does what others do on their personal photographic journeys have any impact on your photographic journey?

 

[Steve]

Your post can be interpreted in a couple of ways.

From the perspective of learning the the technical aspect of photography, you should take all the shortcuts and learn as much as you can. Books, videos, classes, you name it. Just because you're taking the same technical steps as another photographer doesn't mean you're obliged to take the same creative ones too.

As for guides, I think it depends. I do think there is value on finding your own spots and compositions and not have someone looking over your shoulder dishing out step by step instructions. However, it's also handy to have someone there that can help give you ideas and input and possibly improve the shot. I do that on my workshops all the time. I'll offer advice, point out a potential problem here and there, and try to point people in the right direction - and tell them WHY I'm making the suggestions I am so they can decide if it works for their vision.

I do agree that just hiring a pro / guide and having them tell you where to place the camera, what settings to use, and when to shoot isn't teaching you anything. In fact, in that scenario, you're only the photographer on a technically - you pressed the button. Everything else was set by the guide, it's basically his/her shot. At that point, might as well buy a postcard and save yourself the expense of the gear.

However, that's not to say guides are all bad either. A good guide can help you find places / animals that you simply wouldn't have found on your own - especially when you're out of the country. When I go to Africa, I don't have days to spend scouting for wildlife - so we have guides to put us where the wildlife is. In those scenarios though, I control where we park the car / place the boat and the guide simply facilitates my request. Basically, I do the shooting, the guide helps me find the critters. So, although the guide may help others find the same animals next week, I'm bringing my own creatively to the equation.

 

[DRwyoming]

I am talking about folk that don't and simply fast track to the good stuff

In over 40 years behind a camera I've never seen a photographer 'fast track to the good stuff'. It's a learning journey for every photographer and simply traveling to known scenic locations with high end gear does not instantly turn anyone into an award winning landscape photographer nor does visiting a wildlife hotspot or hiring a wildlife biologist tour guide that may get you in front of interesting animals make anyone an award winning wildlife photographer. It's a lot more than being in the right place or owning the right gear.

Lot's of paths for nature photographers but there really aren't any shortcuts. The best gear is no assurance of great photos, being in the 'best places' is not assurance of capturing compelling images, using the 'best' post processing tools is no assurance or short cut to producing jaw dropping images. In the end it's about seeing and then capturing and processing to turn that personal vision into a final image. That takes time, practice and learning which doesn't happen overnight for anyone.

Nothing wrong with choosing a path that makes sense and is enjoyable to you but nothing wrong with learning from those that have gone before and often that means visiting iconic photo spots to see what you can do there. They're both valid approaches to learning and growing but neither is a shortcut to amazing images.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

I do think one or two posters ( can you write that?) are stating the obvious which is you can do both. Of course you can, and many do. But I am sure Ansel Adams (who people like to use as an example) did n't get led around by the nose. Surely we will never produce truly original work if we follow others?

 

[SandyW]

You really think Ansel Adams didn't have a mentor?

 

[Mr F Stop.]

Your post can be interpreted in a couple of ways.

From the perspective of learning the the technical aspect of photography, you should take all the shortcuts and learn as much as you can. Books, videos, classes, you name it. Just because you're taking the same technical steps as another photographer doesn't mean you're obliged to take the same creative ones too.

As for guides, I think it depends. I do think there is value on finding your own spots and compositions and not have someone looking over your shoulder dishing out step by step instructions. However, it's also handy to have someone there that can help give you ideas and input and possibly improve the shot. I do that on my workshops all the time. I'll offer advice, point out a potential problem here and there, and try to point people in the right direction - and tell them WHY I'm making the suggestions I am so they can decide if it works for their vision.

I do agree that just hiring a pro / guide and having them tell you where to place the camera, what settings to use, and when to shoot isn't teaching you anything. In fact, in that scenario, you're only the photographer on a technically - you pressed the button. Everything else was set by the guide, it's basically his/her shot. At that point, might as well buy a postcard and save yourself the expense of the gear.

However, that's not to say guides are all bad either. A good guide can help you find places / animals that you simply wouldn't have found on your own - especially when you're out of the country. When I go to Africa, I don't have days to spend scouting for wildlife - so we have guides to put us where the wildlife is. In those scenarios though, I control where we park the car / place the boat and the guide simply facilitates my request. Basically, I do the shooting, the guide helps me find the critters. So, although the guide may help others find the same animals next week, I'm bringing my own creatively to the equation.

Thanks for your reply. I expected you to say something. I have no problem with guides I spent years in Turkey running off road M/C tours and guiding them. Yes I would expect a guide to listen to your request, your a pro! But I am guessing if I turned up on a guided African photography tour I would go where the guide took me and take the shot from where he parked. I would say you as a pro also have your own style and creativity the guide simply saves you money and time. I agree 100% that learning the nuts and bolts of photography should be learnt as fast as you can with lots of practice but at some point I think you have to say "ok now I am doing it my way" I am assuming that unless your doing things better or different, then chances are your not going to sell anything?

 

[Mr F Stop.]

You really think Ansel Adams didn't have a mentor?

He may well have had a mentor at the beginning but as I understand it he was inventing new ways of doing things, he did n't copy or imitate.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for your reply. I expected you to say something. I have no problem with guides I spent years in Turkey running off road M/C tours and guiding them. Yes I would expect a guide to listen to your request, your a pro! But I am guessing if I turned up on a guided African photography tour I would go where the guide took me and take the shot from where he parked. I would say you as a pro also have your own style and creativity the guide simply saves you money and time. I agree 100% that learning the nuts and bolts of photography should be learnt as fast as you can with lots of practice but at some point I think you have to say "ok now I am doing it my way" I am assuming that unless your doing things better or different, then chances are your not going to sell anything?

Honestly, it's not that hard to just take over and get the guides to do what you want. In the end, they want a nice big tip and know they happier you are, the bigger the bonus. I'm not shy about it either. I've been out on exploratory trips where there were other people along (that I didn't know) and I just kind of take over if I don't like what's happening. It's less about being a pro and more about knowing what you want and not being shy when the time comes

As for selling, that's more about marketing than image quality, always has been.

The other thing is that we learn by taking in lessons from others and, for a time, maybe even copying those lessons. However, the more of these lessons you take in from other photographers, the more you start to take pieces of them and develop your own style. My style is a mix of what I like from probably hundreds of other photographers.

Also, FWIW, I still learn everyday. I learn stuff here on the board as well as from vides, articles, etc. I'm always reading, always discovering new approaches to try and incorporate. Stumbling though the dark doesn't get you nearly as far IMO.

In short, learn from others, take those lessons and add them to the rest of the knowledge you've accumulated, and make something even better.

 

[MikeA]

I am happy to be able to learn from others, like on this site. Without that and the correct advice on equipment I would be rather lost. In every craft you have an apprenticeship, then learn from the masters, then start on your own and then, if you have the talent, you can find your own style and become a master yourself, if you are lucky and have a lot of practice and persistence. Just my few cents. I am still leaning and happy for the help. I just booked my first wildlife and photography workshop tour, because I do not really know yet where to find the animals around where I live and still have a lot to learn.

 

[pochito]

Surely we will never produce truly original work if we follow others?

I think one follows the masters until one has something to say and starts one's own road.
Happened to many great painters
Those "who have it" will do it, those who don't, will not.
Both approaches are equally respectable, IMHO

 

[Rassie]

Thanks for your reply. I expected you to say something. I have no problem with guides I spent years in Turkey running off road M/C tours and guiding them. Yes I would expect a guide to listen to your request, your a pro! But I am guessing if I turned up on a guided African photography tour I would go where the guide took me and take the shot from where he parked. I would say you as a pro also have your own style and creativity the guide simply saves you money and time. I agree 100% that learning the nuts and bolts of photography should be learnt as fast as you can with lots of practice but at some point I think you have to say "ok now I am doing it my way" I am assuming that unless your doing things better or different, then chances are your not going to sell anything?

I've been on two guided South African wildlife safaris with different guides. Both were knowledgeable and sometimes even had their own cameras with them so most of the time they would park the vehicle in an optimal position to the wildlife (sun behind us, no branches obscuring the scene, etc.). There were also times on these safaris when I, as the most experienced and committed photographer in the group - all family - was not happy with our vehicle's parked location and I asked the guides to move the vehicle just so. There were never any objections. There were a couple of times when they explained to the group why they could not park in the most advantageous position for photography and that had to do with safety, ours as well as the animal's, where parking at a specific spot would not leave the animal a safe way out if it got startled and decided to bolt.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

In over 40 years behind a camera I've never seen a photographer 'fast track to the good stuff'. It's a learning journey for every photographer and simply traveling to known scenic locations with high end gear does not instantly turn anyone into an award winning landscape photographer nor does visiting a wildlife hotspot or hiring a wildlife biologist tour guide that may get you in front of interesting animals make anyone an award winning wildlife photographer. It's a lot more than being in the right place or owning the right gear.

Lot's of paths for nature photographers but there really aren't any shortcuts. The best gear is no assurance of great photos, being in the 'best places' is not assurance of capturing compelling images, using the 'best' post processing tools is no assurance or short cut to producing jaw dropping images. In the end it's about seeing and then capturing and processing to turn that personal vision into a final image. That takes time, practice and learning which doesn't happen overnight for anyone.

Nothing wrong with choosing a path that makes sense and is enjoyable to you but nothing wrong with learning from those that have gone before and often that means visiting iconic photo spots to see what you can do there. They're both valid approaches to learning and growing but neither is a shortcut to amazing images.

Honestly, it's not that hard to just take over and get the guides to do what you want. In the end, they want a nice big tip and know they happier you are, the bigger the bonus. I'm not shy about it either. I've been out on exploratory trips where there were other people along (that I didn't know) and I just kind of take over if I don't like what's happening. It's less about being a pro and more about knowing what you want and not being shy when the time comes

As for selling, that's more about marketing than image quality, always has been.

The other thing is that we learn by taking in lessons from others and, for a time, maybe even copying those lessons. However, the more of these lessons you take in from other photographers, the more you start to take pieces of them and develop your own style. My style is a mix of what I like from probably hundreds of other photographers.

Also, FWIW, I still learn everyday. I learn stuff here on the board as well as from vides, articles, etc. I'm always reading, always discovering new approaches to try and incorporate. Stumbling though the dark doesn't get you nearly as far IMO.

In short, learn from others, take those lessons and add them to the rest of the knowledge you've accumulated, and make something even better.

Honestly, it's not that hard to just take over and get the guides to do what you want. In the end, they want a nice big tip and know they happier you are, the bigger the bonus. I'm not shy about it either. I've been out on exploratory trips where there were other people along (that I didn't know) and I just kind of take over if I don't like what's happening. It's less about being a pro and more about knowing what you want and not being shy when the time comes

Really? I can understand this behavior if it's your workshop and the rest of the group are there as your guest. But if you are just another punter in a mixed group that's just not on. If you had attended one of my motorcycle tours and tried this I would have simply given you your money back and put you on a plane home. You can't have the trail wagging the dog. The guide is there for a reason to give ALL the paying customers the best and safest experience they can have. If on the other hand you had hired me for a one on one tour then I would let you have some say in what the itinerary would be. But there would still only be one person making the decisions. You can see now why I would rather go my own way, if I turned up on the same photographic tour as you (and did n't know you were a very good pro) and you started dictating where the group were going I would be throwing a track. Now if i'd paid to attend one of your tours/workshops then I would expect you to be calling the shots. If someone else started dictating where and what we were doing I would support you in telling them to whined their necks in.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

I've been on two guided South African wildlife safaris with different guides. Both were knowledgeable and sometimes even had their own cameras with them so most of the time they would park the vehicle in an optimal position to the wildlife (sun behind us, no branches obscuring the scene, etc.). There were also times on these safaris when I, as the most experienced and committed photographer in the group - all family - was not happy with our vehicle's parked location and I asked the guides to move the vehicle just so. There were never any objections. There were a couple of times when they explained to the group why they could not park in the most advantageous position for photography and that had to do with safety, ours as well as the animal's, where parking at a specific spot would not leave the animal a safe way out if it got startled and decided to bolt.

I think the important part of your post is that the group were family members. That of course would be totaly different if the group were paying individuals that did n't know each other. In my experience has a guide in a group there will always be different needs and wants and opinions that's why there's a guide some you don't spend the entire day wondering around trying to please everyone. It's a very tricky balancing act being a good guide. You are trying to give everyone in the group which have different needs and level of skill a great time. I have also found that once as a guide you open the door on a Chinese parliament you will have lost control and the safety and overall enjoyment of the group will suffer. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Mr F Stop.]

I think one follows the masters until one has something to say and starts one's own road.
Happened to many great painters
Those "who have it" will do it, those who don't, will not.
Both approaches are equally respectable, IMHO

Totally agree. I would add unless you step away and try thinking out side the box and producing something different then you will never know if you have it or not.