So, where are we with tracking? Sony v Nikon v Canon?

[BillW]

Absolutely it's down to the photographer, comes back to the "put a bad body in the hands of a pro".

But ultimately for the money I want the best advantage ☺

You talk about A1 that is actually my first choice (more compact means more travel friendly for underwater). Unfortunately I can't afford the ecosystem - their lens line up for e mounts are shocking and adapted lenses don't work well. However at least canon and Nikon both allow me to buy 2nd hand adapted lenses as full throttle (even better with Nikon as I already have the lenses).

Appreciate your thoughts on this. I'll see if I can rent/trial a z9 or a Z8 and test it for myself!

The Z8 is good news then. Smaller and lighter than the Z9, with the same AF. Of course, maybe not as small as an A1. And less expensive than a Z9 and much less expensive than an A1.

I have both a Z9 and Z8. Like them a lot. I was coming from a D500 and D850 when I started to use mirrorless (initially a Z7). Have not used a Sony or Canon in the same league As the Z9 or Z8.

I assume you can’t change batteries underwater. You might rent a Z8 to see how it works for you. With my Z9, I normally can go a full day, and perhaps more, on a single battery With often 3,000+ shots. The Z8 has a smaller battery — seems pretty good (still getting to know the Z8), but I expect that I might use two batteries in a full day shoot with 3,000+ images. Conditions and circumstances often vary.

There was much to learn and get used to when I got my Z9 in January, 2022. The camera got better as I used it more (and as new firmware came out). Makes me skeptical of reviews done by photographers who have not taken the time to get to know a camera.

 

[ButlerKid]

I'm confused, you're stating I am not allowed to ask the community, or you're stating that I shouldn't?

Before posting, I did check first of all to see if Steve had done this comparison with Canon, but I've been unable to find it. Please link me to that post or video.

Not at all. I'm just giving you the link that provides a professional's assessment of the Sony versus Nikon professional wildlife cameras. You can search here for Steve's comments on the Canon system, but when he needed to pare down and cover only 2 systems, it was the Canon system he dropped.

We have many superb photographers on this site. Some use Nikon. Some use Sony. Some use other systems. And lenses make a HUGE difference also. The point is it is more about the photographer and their skills than it is about the camera brand.

 

[sinetwo]

The Z8 is good news then. Smaller and lighter than the Z9, with the same AF. Of course, maybe not as small as an A1. And less expensive than a Z9 and much less expensive than an A1.

I assume you can’t change batteries underwater. You might rent a Z8 to see how it works for you.

Absolutely, I didn't want to digress the topic with underwater photography (that's a whole other ballgame and consideration I'll deal with separately hah). However as a side note, I've been speaking to R&D of some housing manufacturers and there may be ways of charging via power delivery, using a sealed bulkhead (usb-c). This would be a game changers.

But yes, back on topic, I think everything I've read and head about the Z9/Z8 AF system makes me think it's superb, with perhaps other brands having a slight edge in certain circumstances. Overall I'm looking forward to making the jump to mirrorless - decisions decisions!

 

[ButlerKid]

FWIW......I admire you for doing underwater photography. I used to dive. And u/w photography is definitely the hardest photo genre I have ever tried. And I was shooting a range finder camera with no AF and dual strobes! But - being in that environment is the most thrilling experience I'll ever have in my life!

I do hope you will share some of your images here. We seldom see u/w images - and they can be outstanding!

 

[BillW]

Absolutely, I didn't want to digress the topic with underwater photography (that's a whole other ballgame and consideration I'll deal with separately hah). However as a side note, I've been speaking to R&D of some housing manufacturers and there may be ways of charging via power delivery, using a sealed bulkhead (usb-c). This would be a game changers.

But yes, back on topic, I think everything I've read and head about the Z9/Z8 AF system makes me think it's superb, with perhaps other brands having a slight edge in certain circumstances. Overall I'm looking forward to making the jump to mirrorless - decisions decisions!

Good luck with your choice. It’s great that we have so many good options as photographers today.

 

[sinetwo]

FWIW......I admire you for doing underwater photography. I used to dive. And u/w photography is definitely the hardest photo genre I have ever tried. And I was shooting a range finder camera with no AF and dual strobes! But - being in that environment is the most thrilling experience I'll ever have in my life!

I do hope you will share some of your images here. We seldom see u/w images - and they can be outstanding!

Sure, I'll actually set up my profile properly and get posting. Prepare for images! ☺

 

[fcotterill]

A significant factor in the origins and evolving abilities of ILC autofocus systems is the primary market of AF as judged by the engineers. Sports has always been the primary genre, with photo journalism, and studio. The evidence for this statement is patchy and mainly anecdotal but the emphasis is clear.

For example, AFP is reported to collaborate closely with Nikon on its recent flagship ILCs - since the D5 at least, the D6 - notably in creating the Custom Area AF Mode - and certainly the Z9. It's clear R&D to advance Autofocus is a priority - at least as reported to the public.

Nikon takes its representation very seriously at the most auspicious global sports events - especially the Olympics. One episode in the challenges faced by camera companies was described in some detail in an interview with the then President of Nikon UK, Hidehiko Tanaka (Nikon Owners Magazine No 46, 2014). Nikon made strenuous to catch up after Nikon's poor showing in Beijing 2008; when Tanaka San was worldwide head of NPS, he was under tremendous pressure to reverse the situation. Long story short, Nikon succeeded with a 55% representation of Pros using Nikon at London 2012. As we know AF performance is one of several factors in camera choice rated by sports pros, but the D3 and D4 and more recent flagships ticked this box.

It's far less clear when the big camera companies began to expand the scope of their R&D to tackle the explicit challenges of capturing erratic wildlife subjects - against and within conflicting backgrounds of vegetation, and such clutter (including waves). Previously, the cynic may be forgiven for believing the AF benefits for wildlife photography in one's ILC was the spill over from an AF system developed primarily for athletes cavorting around in stadiums.

Nevertheless, in mid 2019, Nikon added animal category AFmode (eye AF for dogs&cats) in the Z6/Z7 firmware. This recognizes quite a few other species, and 2 years later, Nikon released the Z9, with Subject Recognition. Its AI algorithms have impressive scope across vertebrates, including some fishes too. Compared to the stickiness and brute speed of the D6, the Z9 AF system could, however, definitely be improved when challenged to grab on to subjects against&within conflicting backgrounds.

In fairness, to single out one answer in the 2014 interview above, Tanaka San described that "One aspect of any camera that I like to test is the autofocus system. My current benchmark for this is photographing the seagulls that fly over the River Thames near my home in Richmond, Surrey. If the autofocus can keep up with them and achieve sharp images as they dive and swoop, I consider it has passed my test!" Anecdotal obviously, but Nikon engineers have stated since that they see wildlife photographers as primary markets for their newest Z Telephotos, and several of the Z9 promotional materials highlighted wildlife subjects. The line up of Nikon ambassadors worldwide also includes a good percentage of wildlife photographers.

 

[bleirer]

I think all the brands leap frog each other. So one strategy is to be patient with the ecosystem you've bought into. Soon will be the R1 and R5 mark ii. Also rumors are the A1ii is on its way. The Z8 just announced but they won't rest on their laurels. All are developing lenses and Canon and Nikon have legacy lenses.

 

[IainD]

Keep in mind that any one of the cameras mentioned will do an excellent job when used correctly. There is no wrong answer, but some choices will lead to greater expense than others!

 

[CoyoteCreationsNW]

Cameras and lens systems are complex tools. It is unlikely that any spec sheet or lab test comparison will tell a user what THEY can expect. I was able to get a Z9 in December 2021 and the 400 TC 2.8 lens in June 2022. After 18 months with the Z9 and 12 months with the Z9-400 TC combination, I am still making adjustments to autofocus settings for mammals and birds in flight. I have 90% or more of my settings the same as Steve's set-up guide but the subtle difference in tracking for different locations (backgrounds) and the use of different autofocus area modes resulted in some button reassignments just a month ago. Steve's guide may be optimal for Florida coast shore birds on a sunny day but I am more likely to target Roosevelt elk across a high county meadow on a rainy day. Brad Hill once commented that he does not make equipment recommendations because it is impossible to know how a another person will use the equipment. I agree. So I have fun reading that someone's Sony, Canon, Nikon, or whatever is the "best possible" combination. Fun, but I don't take any of the assessments seriously------except mine!!! The Z9-400 TC is the best possible!!! LOL

 

[Ltgk20]

For all of the reading I've done, the best comparisons between the Z9 and A1 I've seen that I thought were most accurate have been Arbitrage's and Steve's (with lots of text on this site). They also both have experience with the R5 and are probably the best commenter's on how this camera compares as well. I don't know that either has spent extensive enough time with the R3 to fully compare (it's possible either or both have), but at least from a resolution standpoint, it is a very different camera.

 

[arbitrage]

For all of the reading I've done, the best comparisons between the Z9 and A1 I've seen that I thought were most accurate have been Arbitrage's and Steve's (with lots of text on this site). They also both have experience with the R5 and are probably the best commenter's on how this camera compares as well. I don't know that either has spent extensive enough time with the R3 to fully compare (it's possible either or both have), but at least from a resolution standpoint, it is a very different camera.

Yes, at least in my case I've only had 3.5 full days with the R3 when I did a "test drive" via my CPS Platinum membership. I used it only with the RF 600/4 and TCs (also borrowed from CPS). I had owned the R5 for ~7months before that so I didn't have much to learn other than the nuances of how with subject detect on the R3 tracks over the entire frame out of all the AF modes. I did the R3 test drive in early spring so I had two of my most challenging subjects to test with (swallows and kestrels in flight).

What I can say about the R3:
1) Hands down the best feeling body (for my hands) I've ever used....so lightweight compared to the Z9.
2) AF was better than R5 but not by leaps and bounds
3) Nice to have the adjustable FPS in ES
4) The stacked sensor allowed for ES without distortions/rolling shutter all the time unlike R5....however, it didn't provide as good of an EVF experience as the Sony and Nikon stacked sensor cameras do. Just like the R5, when you let off the shutter you get a noticeable jump back to the live feed. So even though it is blackout free while firing, it isn't a perfect live feed. The A1 also has a very small jump back to reality when letting off the shutter but it is barely noticeable. The Z9 is flawless in this. I assume because of the dual-stream they advertise.
Despite that, the actual EVF when not actively firing and panning with a fast bird is my favourite. I found the colours, contrast, and resolution ideal. Better than the A1 (despite its higher pixel count) and better than the Z9. I actually really didn't like the Z9 EVF as I found it hard to accurately judge when whites would blow even using histogram. Also the lower resolution is noticeable (although not a deal breaker). Funny that for actual fast action shooting the Z9 ranks best but otherwise ranks last between the three brands IMO.
However, once you are used to having fully customizable live zebras (in stills) with a Sony it is hard to adapt back to anything else.

 

[EricBowles]

I've yet to see a solid comparison between the three brands, and I'm not sure why it's so hard to find information about this - perhaps it's simply a very expensive test to do.

I for sure wouldn't be able to afford over £700 in renting gear to do the test myself ☺

Ignoring all things rolling shutter, mega pixels etc., it seems like the latest Sonys and Canons outperform Nikons. It's hard to quantify by how much (as I cannot find a reliable test).

It feels like Nikon requires different modes to acquire and track, whereas the others mostly "just work" (I know they will require workarounds in situations as well, just not as often).

To be clear, I've been a long term Nikon shooter, and I do a tonne of underwater photography, so for me the purpose is dual and I wouldn't take moving ecosystems lightly!

So the question is, has anyone actually done a reasonably objective test of acquisition and tracking from the latest and greatest of the AF systems?

Like ISO, I don't think AF system of flagship cameras and related cameras is much of a differentiator. My experience is with the Nikon system - and I've had first shipment deliveries of the D500, D850, Z6, Z7ii and now Z8. The Z8 is the most challenging of the group because it has the most capability and I'm trying to make images that would normally be ignored because of the degree of difficulty. Even starting with a good idea of the settings for the Z9, I'm using the Z8 for a lot more small birds in wooded environments, and that takes different settings from other subject matter.

Pick any of the top three brands and invest the time it takes to thoroughly learn the system. With any of the three, you can get the shot. Subject detection is useful, but can be a distraction. I think the important thing is the image is in focus - regardless of how I get there. But as mentioned elsewhere, if you try to use a Z8 like a D850 or an A1, you are going to fail to take advantage of it's capabilities.

I was out yesterday with the Z8 and 800mm PF photographing a juvenile red-shouldered hawk. Every shot was handheld. The hawk was perched for 10 minutes at a distance of about 120 feet. It was not remarkable that my shots were sharp and in focus. What was remarkable is almost every shot picked up the subject in spite of small sticks 6-12 inches in front of the hawk's head. I could achieve that shot with my Z7ii, but with a lot lower success rate. With the Z8 I was around 95% success - and every shot had a twig overlapping the head of the bird - even with a bird constantly moving to watch for food and crows in the area.

 

[JoelKlein]

I understand the OP knows the fact that all brands have capable bodies. What he wants is: A helping hand to lighten the load while he is underwater. While the Nikon AF can do amazing stuff, it’s asking for human interaction which is a very daunting undertaking while shooting underwater. He wants a AF running a special algorithm for underwater.

 

[John Navitsky]

I think the bigger issue in getting a reliable test done is that each brand needs a different set-up and a different way of shooting to make the most out of its advanced AF. And very few people are equally knowledgeable in all 3 systems.

this

 

[John Navitsky]

bottom line is all the pro sport mirrorless bodies (a1, r3, z9/z8) are extremely good and will get the job done better than any camera that came before once you learn your part of the job

 

[John Navitsky]

My reason for raising this thread is that I would like unbiased opinions on all three AF systems, but it doesn't seem to exist.

that is correct, it mostly doesn’t exist. Steve’s comments probably come closest since he’s shot the a1 and z9 extensively and he finds advantages in both

Ultimately, I want to make use of a mirrorless system's ability to help me focus on composition more, than manually moving an AF point and missing shots

any of these systems will do that for you

I'd love to just test all three systems for a week at the local park but that will simply be too costly.

and to be fair, you won’t really be able to do a good comparison after a week or two because you really need to understand the systems and how to employ them best for your given subject matter

that said, afaik, i haven’t seen much written about how ANY of these systems perform for underwater photography

 

[fcotterill]

Here ye go....

Nikon Z9 Underwater Camera Review - Underwater Photography - Backscatter

The Z9 is Nikon’s first foray into a pro-body mirrorless camera. Unlike the company’s pro body DSLRs which mainly concentrated on speed at the sacrifice of resolution, this is the highest resolution pro body camera Nikon has made to date. It is also the fastest shooting camera Nikon has produced...

www.backscatter.com

Nikon Nikon Z9 Underwater Camera Review - The Digital Shootout

Check out the Nikon Z9 underwater camera review with underwater images shot at The Digitial Shootout, the world's largest underwater imaging learning seminar.

www.thedigitalshootout.com

 

[Rassie]

I was out yesterday with the Z8 and 800mm PF photographing a juvenile red-shouldered hawk. Every shot was handheld. The hawk was perched for 10 minutes at a distance of about 120 feet. It was not remarkable that my shots were sharp and in focus. What was remarkable is almost every shot picked up the subject in spite of small sticks 6-12 inches in front of the hawk's head. I could achieve that shot with my Z7ii, but with a lot lower success rate. With the Z8 I was around 95% success - and every shot had a twig overlapping the head of the bird - even with a bird constantly moving to watch for food and crows in the area.

Coming from Z6II, I found the same thing with the Z8. It even locked focus on a robin on the ground while shooting through a steel fence in AF Wide Large mode. The subject tracking helped the camera ignore the closer fence pickets that were prominent in the image on both sides of the robin and focus on the bird. The Z6II would for sure have focused on the fence pickets.

 

[raptor photo]

Does the camera matter? Or is it all down to the photographer? You be the judge....

Canon R5:

August 21, 2021-6.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

Canon R3:

April 01, 2022-4.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D500:

April 02, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

D850:

April 12, 2019.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

Z9:

March 26, 2023.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

A7RIV:

April 05, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

A9:

June 28, 2019.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

A9II:

May 22, 2020.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

A7RV:

April 30, 2023-2.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

A1:

July 11, 2021.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

These are great! You can see that some cameras with more MP and better AF could produce higher quality shots though, because the AF was able to track them even when the bird got close. Of course, the full frame cameras are better for this too. The z9, A7riv, and the A1 photos are my favorites.