testing a few limits

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Robert S

Well-known member
I thought today I would take a few photos of a distant Kookaburra to test my gear. The Kooka was about 20m away. Raining. Kooka in a tree in shadow [ if the sun was out ].
I used my R7 Canon 100-400 Mk 2 with Sigma 2x converter. I took the photo hand held.
Other than leaving the lens cap on I'm not sure how much worse things could have been.
I ended up with this: 525mm f10 1/30 sec ISO 800
It's not much of a photograph but it would be amazing 60 years ago.

Kooka 21 04 23-5253-DeNoiseAI-standard resize.jpg
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As a bored senile amateur snapper I was beginning to wonder what it is I am doing. Quick chat with nos.1 daughter convinced me I am having fun filling in time.

Comments welcome.
 
Hi Robert,

having a good time should be the first priority anyway!

And a great shot, especially handheld! I like the impression of wetness in the picture from, the tree branch and the kind of wet bird to the rain you see. For me, it tells the story of a bird seeking cover from the rain.

Well done!
 
Like the composition and the feel of that photo, but IMHO, given that it's horribly soft, I'd have shot that without the TC. While I'm not a Canon R7 shooter and have no experience with that lens, let alone the TC, I think you'd have had a far superior result shooting that lens native and cropping. You could have shot that at f5.6, 1/125th at whatever ISO worked and you'd be way ahead of the game. I don't know of a 2X TC from anyone (and especially a 3rd party) that I'd choose over cropping in post and I'd hazard an educated guess that's exactly the primary cause the softness.

In situations as this photo, I'd choose the aperture I needed to get the depth of field you need for the subject, a reasonable shutter speed and let the ISO fall where it may. With modern AI NR processing from DxO and LRC, I have no qualms about shooting at high ISO's.

Nonetheless, I'm jealous of all the cool birds you folks enjoy down that way!

Cheers!
 
Like the composition and the feel of that photo, but IMHO, given that it's horribly soft, I'd have shot that without the TC. While I'm not a Canon R7 shooter and have no experience with that lens, let alone the TC, I think you'd have had a far superior result shooting that lens native and cropping. You could have shot that at f5.6, 1/125th at whatever ISO worked and you'd be way ahead of the game. I don't know of a 2X TC from anyone (and especially a 3rd party) that I'd choose over cropping in post and I'd hazard an educated guess that's exactly the primary cause the softness.

In situations as this photo, I'd choose the aperture I needed to get the depth of field you need for the subject, a reasonable shutter speed and let the ISO fall where it may. With modern AI NR processing from DxO and LRC, I have no qualms about shooting at high ISO's.

Nonetheless, I'm jealous of all the cool birds you folks enjoy down that way!

Cheers!
Thanks for the reply Tom. The photo is soft but then it was a test. Interesting that you prefer cropping to using an extender.
My reason for testing was to find out the limits of the set up. Combo is Canon R7, Canon 100-400 Mk 2, Sigma 2x extender. I want to use it next time a I visit Darwin in July. In particular I intend to use the combo on Buffalo Creek. It is not possible to use a tripod or monopod or bean bag as I will be on a small tinny [ little aluminium boat ]. I did the same trip in January of this year but it was wet season so not ideal conditions.
Since January I bought the lens [ second hand ]. Initially the results were very bad. Not sure why but there was 'banding' in certain areas of the frame. Anyway I took the Kenko UV filter off and things improved a lot.
I choose not to use 'protection filters'. If the lens hood fails to protect the lens then stiff doodoo.
The following photo is an example of using the combo, the second one was taken using a Sigma 150-600 C with the Sigma 2x converter.

Peace Park 21 03 24-4848-DeNoiseAI-standard resize.jpg
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R7 100-400 plus 2x Sigma Ext f11 1/500 ISO 800 hand held

Rainbow 13 05 23 -4770-DeNoiseAI-standard resize.jpg
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R7 Sigma 150-600 C Sigma 2x extender f22 1/320 ISO 3200 Rested the lens hood on the deck rail


Both photos were originally about 32 Meg.
 
Thanks for the reply Tom. The photo is soft but then it was a test. Interesting that you prefer cropping to using an extender.
My reason for testing was to find out the limits of the set up. Combo is Canon R7, Canon 100-400 Mk 2, Sigma 2x extender. I want to use it next time a I visit Darwin in July. In particular I intend to use the combo on Buffalo Creek. It is not possible to use a tripod or monopod or bean bag as I will be on a small tinny [ little aluminium boat ]. I did the same trip in January of this year but it was wet season so not ideal conditions.
Since January I bought the lens [ second hand ]. Initially the results were very bad. Not sure why but there was 'banding' in certain areas of the frame. Anyway I took the Kenko UV filter off and things improved a lot.
I choose not to use 'protection filters'. If the lens hood fails to protect the lens then stiff doodoo.
The following photo is an example of using the combo, the second one was taken using a Sigma 150-600 C with the Sigma 2x converter.
Hi Robert,

I do understand about testing, I do a ton of it myself to understand the limits of my gear before I get in a critical situation. The second two photos you posted are much better, though I have no point of reference as to how much of the frame the subject filled and if/how much cropping was done compared to the first image you posted...and that makes a huge difference, of course.

I recently posted to another thread regarding the 600pf and how surprised I was by a couple shots I took, not so much as a test, but to identify a chattering bird in the top of a tree a considerable distance away. The bird only occupied about 745 vertical pixels out of the 5504 or about 14% of the vertical frame. Normally, I'd walk away from this shot, but the atmospheric and lighting conditions were just about perfect and the resulting image is totally fine for social media or typical online viewing. Would I print it...with some begging or a bottle of wine, maybe...lol


I didn't post this image in the other forum post, but here is one of the images cropped from 8256 x 5504 to 1118 x 745 pixels (.8MP) or 4444mm equivalent focal length. I notice after previewing this post that the forum software seems to be scaling this up to fit the default page width, so on this site one will be viewing at close to 200% on a 4K display, so may look softer than it really is unless viewing on a 1920 x1080 display.

Z9P_5675_cr.png


As for my preference for cropping over a TC, that has often been dictated by the quality of the TC and the camera body I'm using. I was much more inclined to use a TC on my previous D850 and D500 as on a DSLR, I did not like shooting in DX mode and trying to compose with the smaller image in the viewfinder. I own the 1.4x and 1.7x, f-mount TC's that I've had for years and they were reasonably good and had their place. Mostly they were used on a 300 f2.8 VRII, 500pf and 70-200 f2.8E FL and they 1.4x was very good on those specific lenses. The 1.7x was the first TC I bought and was hit and miss, depending on the lens I used it on. I'd be curious to see some tests with your setup of reasonably controlled comparisons of crop vs TC, though I understand that you're not starting out with as many pixels

Now with mirrorless I can shoot in DX mode and have a full image in the VF...and at times, there are advantages to "Cropping in the camera body" as opposed to cropping in post in terms of AF performance or speed. Now with mirrorless bodies, Z9 and Z8, and both 45MP, I do have the Z TC1.4X and it's substantially better than the f-mount models. I use it occasionally under the right conditions on my 100-400 or 600pf, but generally I'll just crop or use DX mode...or both.

Totally agree with keeping filters and such off the front of my lenses unless for specific uses...variable ND for video or CPL's as needed...have had too many issues with flare or other artifacts, even with high quality filters.

Enjoy your upcoming Darwin trip! I hope to get down under there sometime before I get too old to enjoy it...I better hop to it!

Cheers!
 
Hi Robert,

I do understand about testing, I do a ton of it myself to understand the limits of my gear before I get in a critical situation. The second two photos you posted are much better, though I have no point of reference as to how much of the frame the subject filled and if/how much cropping was done compared to the first image you posted...and that makes a huge difference, of course.

I recently posted to another thread regarding the 600pf and how surprised I was by a couple shots I took, not so much as a test, but to identify a chattering bird in the top of a tree a considerable distance away. The bird only occupied about 745 vertical pixels out of the 5504 or about 14% of the vertical frame. Normally, I'd walk away from this shot, but the atmospheric and lighting conditions were just about perfect and the resulting image is totally fine for social media or typical online viewing. Would I print it...with some begging or a bottle of wine, maybe...lol


I didn't post this image in the other forum post, but here is one of the images cropped from 8256 x 5504 to 1118 x 745 pixels (.8MP) or 4444mm equivalent focal length. I notice after previewing this post that the forum software seems to be scaling this up to fit the default page width, so on this site one will be viewing at close to 200% on a 4K display, so may look softer than it really is unless viewing on a 1920 x1080 display.

View attachment 87637

As for my preference for cropping over a TC, that has often been dictated by the quality of the TC and the camera body I'm using. I was much more inclined to use a TC on my previous D850 and D500 as on a DSLR, I did not like shooting in DX mode and trying to compose with the smaller image in the viewfinder. I own the 1.4x and 1.7x, f-mount TC's that I've had for years and they were reasonably good and had their place. Mostly they were used on a 300 f2.8 VRII, 500pf and 70-200 f2.8E FL and they 1.4x was very good on those specific lenses. The 1.7x was the first TC I bought and was hit and miss, depending on the lens I used it on. I'd be curious to see some tests with your setup of reasonably controlled comparisons of crop vs TC, though I understand that you're not starting out with as many pixels

Now with mirrorless I can shoot in DX mode and have a full image in the VF...and at times, there are advantages to "Cropping in the camera body" as opposed to cropping in post in terms of AF performance or speed. Now with mirrorless bodies, Z9 and Z8, and both 45MP, I do have the Z TC1.4X and it's substantially better than the f-mount models. I use it occasionally under the right conditions on my 100-400 or 600pf, but generally I'll just crop or use DX mode...or both.

Totally agree with keeping filters and such off the front of my lenses unless for specific uses...variable ND for video or CPL's as needed...have had too many issues with flare or other artifacts, even with high quality filters.

Enjoy your upcoming Darwin trip! I hope to get down under there sometime before I get too old to enjoy it...I better hop to it!

Cheers!

Hello Tom,
Thanks for latest post. The two photos I posted are full frame [ no crop ]. The R7 is about 32.5 Mp. I had to resize them for this web site. The following are crops of the same photos:


Duck crop 26 04 23-.JPG
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Rainbow crop 26 04 23- resize.jpg
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It seems to that the Canon 100-400 Mk2 with Sigma 2x extender is much better than the Sigma 150-600 C with Sigma 2x extender. I guess this is to be expected as the 2nd photo is equivalent FF of '1820mm'. Then cropped.

I guess the Canon lens is better than the Sigma lens, plus it is possible that the image stabilization is working better.

All being well the R7 and 100-400 with or without 1.4 or 2 x extender will cover most things in Darwin.


Your set up seems to work for you. I tried to find out if the IS of the Canon lens works with the in body IS of the R7 with or without Sigma extender. It seems to me a simple question but that does not stop people from providing more bs in their answers than a feed lot.

Best advice I can give for your possible trip to Australia is to go on facebook and check out the regional birding sites. Northern Territory Birders is a good start.
 
Wow, handheld at 1/30 with that gear and you got this? That's awesome! Why 1/30th? Were you trying to keep ISO down? It's been said a lot: better a noisy sharp image that a blurry clean one.
 
Thanks for the reply Tom. The photo is soft but then it was a test. Interesting that you prefer cropping to using an extender.
My reason for testing was to find out the limits of the set up. Combo is Canon R7, Canon 100-400 Mk 2, Sigma 2x extender. I want to use it next time a I visit Darwin in July. In particular I intend to use the combo on Buffalo Creek. It is not possible to use a tripod or monopod or bean bag as I will be on a small tinny [ little aluminium boat ]. I did the same trip in January of this year but it was wet season so not ideal conditions.
Since January I bought the lens [ second hand ]. Initially the results were very bad. Not sure why but there was 'banding' in certain areas of the frame. Anyway I took the Kenko UV filter off and things improved a lot.
I choose not to use 'protection filters'. If the lens hood fails to protect the lens then stiff doodoo.
The following photo is an example of using the combo, the second one was taken using a Sigma 150-600 C with the Sigma 2x converter.

View attachment 87611
R7 100-400 plus 2x Sigma Ext f11 1/500 ISO 800 hand held

View attachment 87612

R7 Sigma 150-600 C Sigma 2x extender f22 1/320 ISO 3200 Rested the lens hood on the deck rail


Both photos were originally about 32 Meg.
Wow! Nice and sharp in both cases.
 
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