Why is there so much noise? ISO 640 (Z9/200-500mm f5.6)

[RaffScallion]

Hi all,.

As per title, this photo was taken at ISO 640 with a Z9, but when zooming 1:1 seems to have a really noisy background - is this expected? I know ISO is not the cause of noise but rather poor signal-to-noise ratio, but that wouldn't seem to explain it in this case (and others where there is plenty of light in the frame).

Any help getting to the bottom of this is appreciated!

 

[Cameron T]

That's a super small export, and not really helpful.

The answer is low Snr, which you already know. Pixel peeping on higher res sensors looks worse too.

 

[John Navitsky]

is this a crop? what are the other settings? have any adjustments been applied in post (brightening, etc)?

 

[RaffScallion]

is this a crop? what are the other settings? have any adjustments been applied in post (brightening, etc)?

Hi, zero post done + no cropping

That's a super small export, and not really helpful.

The answer is low Snr, which you already know. Pixel peeping on higher res sensors looks worse too.

Export done using recommended BCG settings

 

[DRwyoming]

As per title, this photo was taken at ISO 640 with a Z9, but when zooming 1:1 seems to have a really noisy background - is this expected?

Not sure what your comparisons are but if you're coming from a lower resolution camera this is very normal.

When the D850 came out there were a ton of complaints of high noise and it almost always turned out to be a question of zooming to a 100% view in a tool like LR (1:1 pixel view). The thing is that's a crazy tight crop into a high resolution photo compared to doing a similar 100% zoom on a lower resolution camera.

Stated another way, if you cropped (not downsized) to say a 1200x800 pixel image for uploading to a website like this from say a 20 mega pixel camera it wouldn't be nearly as deep a crop as the same cropped pixel size image from a 45 megapixel camera. When you zoom in that tightly to an image from a very high resolution camera it's a lot like inspecting a gallery image with your nose an inch or two from the print where you see all kinds of stuff that's not normally visible from normal viewing distances.

If you've been shooting high res images for a while and are used to zooming in to 100% zoom without seeing as much noise then something else is likely going on but if this is a first experience with a very high resolution sensor then what you're seeing is completely normal.

 

[RaffScallion]

Not sure what your comparisons are but if you're coming from a lower resolution camera this is very normal.

When the D850 came out there were a ton of complaints of high noise and it almost always turned out to be a question of zooming to a 100% view in a tool like LR (1:1 pixel view). The thing is that's a crazy tight crop into a high resolution photo compared to doing a similar 100% zoom on a lower resolution camera.

Stated another way, if you cropped (not downsized) to say a 1200x800 pixel image for uploading to a website like this from say a 20 mega pixel camera it wouldn't be nearly as deep a crop as the same cropped pixel size image from a 45 megapixel camera. When you zoom in that tightly to an image from a very high resolution camera it's a lot like inspecting a gallery image with your nose an inch or two from the print where you see all kinds of stuff that's not normally visible from normal viewing distances.

If you've been shooting high res images for a while and are used to zooming in to 100% zoom without seeing as much noise then something else is likely going on but if this is a first experience with a very high resolution sensor then what you're seeing is likely completely normal.

Thanks - that's really helpful.
Yes it's my first move to a high-res sensor, coming from the D7500 - so maybe it's just a case of not being used to the higher res!

 

[DRwyoming]

Thanks - that's really helpful.
Yes it's my first move to a high-res sensor, coming from the D7500 - so maybe it's just a case of not being used to the higher res!

FWIW, here's a visual of how that works.

The Red Crossbill image below was shot with my Z9 at ISO 3600. I imported it into LR and then PS but didn't do any editing and no noise reduction. Then I made a duplicate image and downsized it in PS to the image dimensions of a D7500 sensor and took the same sized 1200x800 pixel crop from each image. That's effectively what happens when you view the different resolution images at 100% zoom in LR or PS (nothing magical about the 1200x800 size, that's just a convenient size to post here on BCG forums but the key is both crops are the same pixel dimensions and represent a 1:1 pixel view of the corresponding image).

Here's what the final cropped images look like side by side at 1:1 pixel view:

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

The left hand image shows how much closer you zoom in at 100% zoom (1:1 pixel view) with the relatively high resolution Z9 sensor and the right hand image shows the level of zoom with the mid resolution D7500 sensor dimensions. Notice how much more visible the noise is in the left hand image due to viewing a higher res image at 1:1.

Here's the percentage of the each image the crop represents using a 1200x800 pixel crop selection

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

Bottom line is that as sensor resolution goes up, for what seems like the same 100% zoom level you're really zooming in tighter on the higher resolution image and defects including visible noise appear to increase even though when processed to the same output file size for printing or web use there really isn't a lot more noise. The takeaway from an image evaluation standpoint is that we either learn to accept that high res images look a bit noisier at 100% zoom level or we learn to evaluate them at slightly less aggressive zoom levels to more accurately represent what we'll see in the final sized image.

The flip side is that this also illustrates why noise appears to rise as we crop deeper into a photo. Of course the cropping alone doesn't change the basic image but when we resize the cropped image to the same final pixel dimensions for printing or posting the noise appears to rise the deeper we crop (and subsequently resize for output) compared to less cropping. For instance if you crop an image from full frame sensor size to say DX crop the noise in the size normalized output image goes up a bit more than a stop similar to if you'd shot the image at a stop higher ISO.

 

[SCoombs]

FWIW, here's a visual of how that works.

The Red Crossbill image below was shot with my Z9 at ISO 3600. I imported it into LR and then PS but didn't do any editing and no noise reduction. Then I made a duplicate image and downsized it in PS to the image dimensions of a D7500 sensor and took the same sized 1200x800 pixel crop from each image. That's effectively what happens when you view the different resolution images at 100% zoom in LR or PS (nothing magical about the 1200x800 size, that's just a convenient size to post here on BCG forums but the key is both crops are the same pixel dimensions and represent a 1:1 pixel view of the corresponding image).

Here's what the final cropped images look like side by side at 1:1 pixel view:

View attachment 73539

The left hand image shows how much closer you zoom in at 100% zoom (1:1 pixel view) with the relatively high resolution Z9 sensor and the right hand image shows the level of zoom with the mid resolution D7500 sensor dimensions. Notice how much more visible the noise is in the left hand image due to viewing a higher res image at 1:1.

Here's the percentage of the each image the crop represents using a 1200x800 pixel crop selection


View attachment 73546

View attachment 73544

Bottom line is that as sensor resolution goes up, for what seems like the same 100% zoom level you're really zooming in tighter on the higher resolution image and defects including visible noise appear to increase even though when processed to the same output file size for printing or web use there really isn't a lot more noise. The takeaway is that we either learn to accept that high res images look a bit noisier at 100% zoom level or we learn to evaluate them at slightly less aggressive zoom levels to more accurately represent what we'll see in the final sized image.

The flip side is that this also illustrates why noise appears to rise as we crop deeper into a photo. Of course the cropping alone doesn't change the basic image but when we resize the cropped image to the same final pixel dimensions for printing or posting the noise appears to rise the deeper we crop (and subsequently resize for output) compared to less cropping. For instance if you crop an image from full frame sensor size to say DX crop the noise in the size normalized output image goes up a bit more than a stop similar to if you'd shot the image at a stop higher ISO.

This is a good explanation and example, though I'd suggest that there's a third possibility besides accepting the noise or only viewing images at a lower zoom level: denoising is outstanding these days and I'd say that one can easily get the image on the left at its greater zoom level to have an even less noisy, sharper look than the one on the right a few clicks of the mouse.

Here's a significant crop of a very high ISO photo. It's not the best example I could find if I took longer to dig, but it's probably good enough to illustrate the point.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[DRwyoming]

This is a good explanation and example, though I'd suggest that there's a third possibility besides accepting the noise or only viewing images at a lower zoom level: denoising is outstanding these days

Yes, sorry I was just talking about the initial image evaluation part not the processing steps you might take I suppose I should have made that clear. But sure, modern denoise software is pretty amazing and definitely something to keep handy in the processing workflow.

 

[Palmor]

This is a good explanation and example, though I'd suggest that there's a third possibility besides accepting the noise or only viewing images at a lower zoom level: denoising is outstanding these days and I'd say that one can easily get the image on the left at its greater zoom level to have an even less noisy, sharper look than the one on the right a few clicks of the mouse.

Here's a significant crop of a very high ISO photo. It's not the best example I could find if I took longer to dig, but it's probably good enough to illustrate the point.

I always link this dpreview video and accompanying article when the topic of "high MP camera has worse noise" comes up. I think it goes through and explains it well (the article is more tehnical)

The effect of pixel size on noise

A quick look at why, in most circumstances, a larger sensor will make much more difference to your images quality than the size of your pixels.

www.dpreview.com

 

[John Navitsky]

there are also problems like motion blur, heat haze, etc. which is why full settings would be helpful

 

[EricBowles]

Hi all,.

As per title, this photo was taken at ISO 640 with a Z9, but when zooming 1:1 seems to have a really noisy background - is this expected? I know ISO is not the cause of noise but rather poor signal-to-noise ratio, but that wouldn't seem to explain it in this case (and others where there is plenty of light in the frame).

Any help getting to the bottom of this is appreciated!

I'd consider ISO 640 a non-issue on any camera - even if you are going to be cropping. Of course, it depends a bit on your post processing. Increasing exposure, raising shadows, increasing contrast or clarity, and sharpening can all increase apparent noise. Cropping increases the size of remaining noise, but downsizing for web use reduces the impact of noise.

If you are processing in Lightroom, be sure you are using "Camera Settings" in your Preferences/ Presets for Raw Handling. That better renders the RAW file with Nikon settings.

As others have mentioned, 1:1 is effectively looking at a very high level of magnification - about the same as looking at a 1 foot segment of an 8 foot print from just 18 inches. If you were to use noise reduction and eliminate the noise completely, you could also eliminate sharp details that you wanted to keep. Try to strike a balance based on your intended output. Also keep in mind different software programs render 1:1, 100%, or actual size in different ways.

 

[bleirer]

FWIW, here's a visual of how that works.

The Red Crossbill image below was shot with my Z9 at ISO 3600. I imported it into LR and then PS but didn't do any editing and no noise reduction. Then I made a duplicate image and downsized it in PS to the image dimensions of a D7500 sensor and took the same sized 1200x800 pixel crop from each image. That's effectively what happens when you view the different resolution images at 100% zoom in LR or PS (nothing magical about the 1200x800 size, that's just a convenient size to post here on BCG forums but the key is both crops are the same pixel dimensions and represent a 1:1 pixel view of the corresponding image).

Here's what the final cropped images look like side by side at 1:1 pixel view:

View attachment 73539

The left hand image shows how much closer you zoom in at 100% zoom (1:1 pixel view) with the relatively high resolution Z9 sensor and the right hand image shows the level of zoom with the mid resolution D7500 sensor dimensions. Notice how much more visible the noise is in the left hand image due to viewing a higher res image at 1:1.

Here's the percentage of the each image the crop represents using a 1200x800 pixel crop selection


View attachment 73546

View attachment 73544

Bottom line is that as sensor resolution goes up, for what seems like the same 100% zoom level you're really zooming in tighter on the higher resolution image and defects including visible noise appear to increase even though when processed to the same output file size for printing or web use there really isn't a lot more noise. The takeaway from an image evaluation standpoint is that we either learn to accept that high res images look a bit noisier at 100% zoom level or we learn to evaluate them at slightly less aggressive zoom levels to more accurately represent what we'll see in the final sized image.

The flip side is that this also illustrates why noise appears to rise as we crop deeper into a photo. Of course the cropping alone doesn't change the basic image but when we resize the cropped image to the same final pixel dimensions for printing or posting the noise appears to rise the deeper we crop (and subsequently resize for output) compared to less cropping. For instance if you crop an image from full frame sensor size to say DX crop the noise in the size normalized output image goes up a bit more than a stop similar to if you'd shot the image at a stop higher ISO.

Good explanation!

 

[RaffScallion]

This is a good explanation and example, though I'd suggest that there's a third possibility besides accepting the noise or only viewing images at a lower zoom level: denoising is outstanding these days and I'd say that one can easily get the image on the left at its greater zoom level to have an even less noisy, sharper look than the one on the right a few clicks of the mouse.

Here's a significant crop of a very high ISO photo. It's not the best example I could find if I took longer to dig, but it's probably good enough to illustrate the point.

View attachment 73553

View attachment 73554

Wow that is nuts! Is this Topaz or native LrC?

 

[SCoombs]

Wow that is nuts! Is this Topaz or native LrC?

That is LightroomC.

 

[gKhan]

Not sure what your comparisons are but if you're coming from a lower resolution camera this is very normal.

When the D850 came out there were a ton of complaints of high noise and it almost always turned out to be a question of zooming to a 100% view in a tool like LR (1:1 pixel view). The thing is that's a crazy tight crop into a high resolution photo compared to doing a similar 100% zoom on a lower resolution camera.

Stated another way, if you cropped (not downsized) to say a 1200x800 pixel image for uploading to a website like this from say a 20 mega pixel camera it wouldn't be nearly as deep a crop as the same cropped pixel size image from a 45 megapixel camera. When you zoom in that tightly to an image from a very high resolution camera it's a lot like inspecting a gallery image with your nose an inch or two from the print where you see all kinds of stuff that's not normally visible from normal viewing distances.

If you've been shooting high res images for a while and are used to zooming in to 100% zoom without seeing as much noise then something else is likely going on but if this is a first experience with a very high resolution sensor then what you're seeing is completely normal.

Thanks for that comprehensive explanation. Helpful and concise and much appreciated.

 

[O]

Cant help you with the your specific image sample.

I did go down this road......it may throw some light on the camera being an issue but only after you are cleared of the issue possibly being YOU.

The D850 is pretty much noiseless at base ISO. It is widely said to be the best or one of the best DSLRs available. If you are dissatisfied with noise in the D850 at low ISOs
there is something wrong with your perception, processing or camera.

My first D850 had a lot of noise at very low ISO, i compared it to other D850 units in the club and i found that they varied slightly some worse than others but nothing as bad as mine,
my sample was terrible, extremely so, 200-400 800 iso, the noise was well horrible especially on overcast days.

Nikon looked into it, they gave me a new D850. Been extremely happy ever since, i shoot as default floated iso to 12800 happily.

Again after user issues have been eliminated it could be your sample camera, you should compare it to another Z9 side by side same settings and a static subject.

My Z9 i use happily with the default floated iso set to 12800, never an issue.


Only an opinion

 

[CameraLex]

FWIW, here's a visual of how that works.

The Red Crossbill image below was shot with my Z9 at ISO 3600. I imported it into LR and then PS but didn't do any editing and no noise reduction. Then I made a duplicate image and downsized it in PS to the image dimensions of a D7500 sensor and took the same sized 1200x800 pixel crop from each image. That's effectively what happens when you view the different resolution images at 100% zoom in LR or PS (nothing magical about the 1200x800 size, that's just a convenient size to post here on BCG forums but the key is both crops are the same pixel dimensions and represent a 1:1 pixel view of the corresponding image).

Here's what the final cropped images look like side by side at 1:1 pixel view:

View attachment 73539

The left hand image shows how much closer you zoom in at 100% zoom (1:1 pixel view) with the relatively high resolution Z9 sensor and the right hand image shows the level of zoom with the mid resolution D7500 sensor dimensions. Notice how much more visible the noise is in the left hand image due to viewing a higher res image at 1:1.

Here's the percentage of the each image the crop represents using a 1200x800 pixel crop selection


View attachment 73546

View attachment 73544

Bottom line is that as sensor resolution goes up, for what seems like the same 100% zoom level you're really zooming in tighter on the higher resolution image and defects including visible noise appear to increase even though when processed to the same output file size for printing or web use there really isn't a lot more noise. The takeaway from an image evaluation standpoint is that we either learn to accept that high res images look a bit noisier at 100% zoom level or we learn to evaluate them at slightly less aggressive zoom levels to more accurately represent what we'll see in the final sized image.

The flip side is that this also illustrates why noise appears to rise as we crop deeper into a photo. Of course the cropping alone doesn't change the basic image but when we resize the cropped image to the same final pixel dimensions for printing or posting the noise appears to rise the deeper we crop (and subsequently resize for output) compared to less cropping. For instance if you crop an image from full frame sensor size to say DX crop the noise in the size normalized output image goes up a bit more than a stop similar to if you'd shot the image at a stop higher ISO.

I think you are mistaken.
If you use the same lens (e.g. 180-600mm or any other..) the vof om the D7500 would be like the DX mode of the Z9. So when you zoom in to 100% you get almost the same picture.
If you look at the photosite sizes you will see that the from the D7500 are almost equal to the Z9 and the reason is that the Z9 is FF (with 46MP) and the D7500 is APS-C (with 21MP).