Z8/9 Auto Focus (C) w/Sub Detection 🐦+👁️=🧐

[Steve]

interesting discussion and good info here.
I’m thinking; what if you turn SD OFF, and navigate the 3D box on the eye. Would it track it ignoring what else is in the scene?

Depends - in theory it'll try to stick, and if the eye is distinctive enough it just might. However, it's using a different system based primary on color differences. I've found 3D without SD often sticks to the eye for a moment but when the subject moves, starts to wander.

Honestly, sometimes you just gotta use a single AF point and not mess around. It's nice when the tech helps, but it's still in its infancy (Subject Detection that is) and it's not perfect. I get a heck of a lot more keepers if I switch it off / use single point when it struggles.

 

[JoelKlein]

Depends - in theory it'll try to stick, and if the eye is distinctive enough it just might. However, it's using a different system based primary on color differences. I've found 3D without SD often sticks to the eye for a moment but when the subject moves, starts to wander.

Honestly, sometimes you just gotta use a single AF point and not mess around. It's nice when the tech helps, but it's still in its infancy (Subject Detection that is) and it's not perfect. I get a heck of a lot more keepers if I switch it off / use single point when it struggles.

Makes sense.
On BIF handholding, single point is impossible. Spoonbills, Ospreys, Eagles, etc.

 

[Larry S.]

Depends - in theory it'll try to stick, and if the eye is distinctive enough it just might. However, it's using a different system based primary on color differences. I've found 3D without SD often sticks to the eye for a moment but when the subject moves, starts to wander.

Honestly, sometimes you just gotta use a single AF point and not mess around. It's nice when the tech helps, but it's still in its infancy (Subject Detection that is) and it's not perfect. I get a heck of a lot more keepers if I switch it off / use single point when it struggles.

Steve, the single point AF w/SD OFF for stationary or slow moving critters seems to be the solution here. However, Joel’s point is spot on, the single point is useless for BIF. The video button I reprogrammed for AF areas will let me quickly switch, based on needs….. Like this example from your recent post “knowing when birds are about to launch”……. YUP, She launched! Twice…

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[Steve]

Makes sense.
On BIF handholding, single point is impossible. Spoonbills, Ospreys, Eagles, etc.

Steve, the single point AF w/SD OFF for stationary or slow moving critters seems to be the solution here. However, Joel’s point is spot on, the single point is useless for BIF. The video button I reprogrammed for AF areas will let me quickly switch, based on needs….. Like this example from your recent post “knowing when birds are about to launch”……. YUP, She launched! Twice…
View attachment 87313

Yeah, I was thinking more or less static shots (when this thread started out, it was more about reflections, not action - I'm not sure when it shifted ). Sticking with more or less static or slow movers, I think it's completely realistic to keep a single AF point or Wide Small area on the head - I do it all the time And I agree, for flight shots, single point isn't as easy.

Shifting to action shots:

For situations where Subject Detection isn't working well for action, I use Wide Large or Wide Small and do my best to keep the AF area on the face area. Ideally, yes, I like to use Subject Detection for those scenarios, but there are times it just doesn't stick to the correct area (depends on the bird and the distance). In those cases, I turn it off and get a better keeper rate. I've had times where Subject Detection would constantly focus on the bird's body instead of the head, netting me a 100% failure rate. Even if I don't do as well as Subject Detection when it's working, I still tend to get a better keeper rate than that

Still, for most birds I find Subject Detection works at least as well as I do for action, it really depends on the scene.

It comes down to what I say all the time: If Subject Detection is working well, stick with it - but don't hesitate to shut it off if it's not sticking to the subject the way you want.

 

[Dinusaur]

Makes sense.
On BIF handholding, single point is impossible. Spoonbills, Ospreys, Eagles, etc.

I also thought the same way until three days ago when I accidentally shot, hand holding Z9 with 400TC, a diving Osprey with Single Point in AF-C mode and 15 consecutive frames leading to Osprey's entry to water were all in focus. Initially I was shooting a Yellow-rumped Warbler on a tree. It was a cloudy dark day; I was using 1/600s shutter speed and single point AF. But then the Osprey suddenly appeared, I forgot to up the shutter speed and switch to Wide-L to track it down to water. Later I was surprised to see them all coming in focus. Then it hit me. AF-C, by definition, should keep focus on a moving subject as long as one starts with the focus on the subject. Here's the last full frame before the Osprey disappeared in water, compare the relative position of the focus point (red square) against the subject - interesting, isn't it?

 

[Larry S.]

I also thought the same way until three days ago when I accidentally shot, hand holding Z9 with 400TC, a diving Osprey with Single Point in AF-C mode and 15 consecutive frames leading to Osprey's entry to water were all in focus. Initially I was shooting a Yellow-rumped Warbler on a tree. It was a cloudy dark day; I was using 1/600s shutter speed and single point AF. But then the Osprey suddenly appeared, I forgot to up the shutter speed and switch to Wide-L to track it down to water. Later I was surprised to see them all coming in focus. Then it hit me. AF-C, by definition, should keep focus on a moving subject as long as one starts with the focus on the subject. Here's the last full frame before the Osprey disappeared in water, compare the relative position of the focus point (red square) against the subject - interesting, isn't it?

Excellent image ! Sometimes luck smiles on us… looks sharp to me. A heavy crop will tell….

 

[Cameron T]

I also thought the same way until three days ago when I accidentally shot, hand holding Z9 with 400TC, a diving Osprey with Single Point in AF-C mode and 15 consecutive frames leading to Osprey's entry to water were all in focus. Initially I was shooting a Yellow-rumped Warbler on a tree. It was a cloudy dark day; I was using 1/600s shutter speed and single point AF. But then the Osprey suddenly appeared, I forgot to up the shutter speed and switch to Wide-L to track it down to water. Later I was surprised to see them all coming in focus. Then it hit me. AF-C, by definition, should keep focus on a moving subject as long as one starts with the focus on the subject. Here's the last full frame before the Osprey disappeared in water, compare the relative position of the focus point (red square) against the subject - interesting, isn't it?

Now let's see the frames before and if you kept it on the osprey. Single point (without SD) in fact does focus on the point under the box. It doesn't track.

AF-C just means it'll keep focusing on what's under the focus box/point/SD box. It doesn't automatically track moving objects, that's not what AF-C means. You can verify this in the manual.

 

[Dinusaur]

Now let's see the frames before and if you kept it on the osprey. Single point (without SD) in fact does focus on the point under the box. It doesn't track.

AF-C just means it'll keep focusing on what's under the focus box/point/SD box. It doesn't automatically track moving objects, that's not what AF-C means. You can verify this in the manual.

Here's the proof in the pudding. There were 15 frames of the dive, starting with frame #3114 and ending at frame #3128 (posted screen capture above). Here are the starting and some intermediate frames, screen capture from NX Studio. frame number is in the name of each image. From the manual I thought in AF-C mode camera adjusts the focus continuously with change of subject distance.

 

[Cameron T]

So for the most part, you were tracking it, and given the AF point possibly still being on it (due to VR shenanigans) it seems like it did the job well.

"From the manual I thought in AF-C mode camera adjusts the focus continuously with change of subject distance."

Yes, but only if you keep the point on it. If you lose it under the point it should grab whatever is under it and focus on that instead. So I'm surprised the last two frames were still in focus perfectly.

 

[DRwyoming]

…"From the manual I thought in AF-C mode camera adjusts the focus continuously with change of subject distance."
…So I'm surprised the last two frames were still in focus perfectly.

I’d put that down to Focus Tracking Lock On Delay. Hard to say how that was set in this case but if it’s set mid range or higher the AF system won’t immediately grab a new target at a different distance and will pretty much keep the lens focused at the same distance for a short time.

 

[JoelKlein]

I bought Mark Smith’s video training course. He points out a really cool point. He sets his BBF button to LOCK focus while its being pressed.
The moment the diving bird isn’t moving away or closer just coming down, he suggests locking the AF and let go (resume AF-C) when its flying up and away.

Regarding reflective waters, I tested it on water fowl, (a while ago when bird AF was added) Auto area blocked shot set to “5”.
I think this is working. Can someone else try it?

 

[ajrmd]

I bought Mark Smith’s video training course. He points out a really cool point. He sets his BBF button to LOCK focus while its being pressed.
The moment the diving bird isn’t moving away or closer just coming down, he suggests locking the AF and let go (resume AF-C) when its flying up and away.

Regarding reflective waters, I tested it on water fowl, (a while ago when bird AF was added) Auto area blocked shot set to “5”.
I think this is working. Can someone else try it?

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the BBF, locking focus? Rather, one could release the BBF while the bird was in the dive, in effect stopping AF, and then resuming AF by pressing and holding the BBF again after the bird emerges. It’s a strategy I’ve started adopting with the new Z8 FW update since, the AF system struggles to maintain focus with diving birds like Osprey, eagles, etc. Believe it or not, it is harder than it looks and if the strike is not parallel to your plane of focus, this method doesn’t work.

 

[abc123brian]

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the BBF, locking focus? Rather, one could release the BBF while the bird was in the dive, in effect stopping AF, and then resuming AF by pressing and holding the BBF again after the bird emerges. It’s a strategy I’ve started adopting with the new Z8 FW update since, the AF system struggles to maintain focus with diving birds like Osprey, eagles, etc. Believe it or not, it is harder than it looks and if the strike is not parallel to your plane of focus, this method doesn’t work.

It’s doing the opposite of what you’re doing. Focus on shutter button but pressing AF-On disengages focus. I like this better than using back button focus because I don’t want to use two fingers to do what only one is needed for as I more frequently want AF than not wanting it. Some people struggle with releasing back to half press on the shutter and they prefer BBF. It’s just preference. Not sure why you’re having issues with diving birds. I haven’t seen any issues with tracking them.

 

[ajrmd]

It’s doing the opposite of what you’re doing. Focus on shutter button but pressing AF-On disengages focus. I like this better than using back button focus because I don’t want to use two fingers to do what only one is needed for as I more frequently want AF than not wanting it. Some people struggle with releasing back to half press on the shutter and they prefer BBF. It’s just preference. Not sure why you’re having issues with diving birds. I haven’t seen any issues with tracking them.

I’ve experienced very strange behavior with the z8 and diving birds in whatever af mode I’ve used (AA, wide smal, wide large, etc). It seems to track the bird well through most of the dive until it nears the water, stumbles oof for a few frames (ff’s) and then recaptures af after the strike. This occurs with Osprey, eagles, etc. with no apparent reason why. Messing with the other af settings doesn’t seem to affect it either.

 

[JoelKlein]

I’ve experienced very strange behavior with the z8 and diving birds in whatever af mode I’ve used (AA, wide smal, wide large, etc). It seems to track the bird well through most of the dive until it nears the water, stumbles oof for a few frames (ff’s) and then recaptures af after the strike. This occurs with Osprey, eagles, etc. with no apparent reason why. Messing with the other af settings doesn’t seem to affect it either.

Same with Z9?

 

[JAJohnson]

Same with Z9?

Yes. I experienced this in February using my Z9 and 180-600 lens capturing brown pelicans diving for fish. I tried to get a well focused shot as the pelican’s beak touched the surface of the water but I was unable to do it Lots of great in-flight shots, though.

 

[JoelKlein]

Yes. I experienced this in February using my Z9 and 180-600 lens capturing brown pelicans diving for fish. I tried to get a well focused shot as the pelican’s beak touched the surface of the water but I was unable to do it Lots of great in-flight shots, though.

Setting blocked shots to 5 doesn’t help?
-
What does work? Canon? Sony?

 

[JAJohnson]

Setting blocked shots to 5 doesn’t help?
-
What does work? Canon? Sony?

Setting blocked shot AF response to 5 didn’t help. I have no experience with any other camera brands.

 

[arbitrage]

Setting blocked shots to 5 doesn’t help?
-
What does work? Canon? Sony?

Sony....
They all have issues from time to time with getting distracted by highlights or contrast in the water. The lower you shoot from and the calmer the water, the less issues you will have. I'm not sure if one system is really way better than the others.

April 19, 2024.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
July 01, 2022.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

 

[abc123brian]

Setting blocked shots to 5 doesn’t help?
-
What does work? Canon? Sony?

Like arbitrage said, getting lower is going to make a difference. Once the bird hits the water you’re going to have a lot of shiny, reflective water drops and splashing to potentially confuse the AF. A lot of it is also on the photographer to keep the bird in one place during the dive and not go completely past it when it hits the water making a sudden stop.

 

[Steve]

Like arbitrage said, getting lower is going to make a difference. Once the bird hits the water you’re going to have a lot of shiny, reflective water drops and splashing to potentially confuse the AF. A lot of it is also on the photographer to keep the bird in one place during the dive and not go completely past it when it hits the water making a sudden stop.

I agree. And to add on, I think that photographer skill / practice is 80% of the equation with shots like that. Even when AF system evolve enough that they don't let go until the bird is underwater, a situation involving diving will still demand some skill on the part of the photographer.

 

[JAJohnson]

Sony....
They all have issues from time to time with getting distracted by highlights or contrast in the water. The lower you shoot from and the calmer the water, the less issues you will have. I'm not sure if one system is really way better than the others.

April 19, 2024.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr
July 01, 2022.jpg by Bird/Wildlife Photos, on Flickr

I notice in these two photos the water surface is calm. In the situation I mentioned a storm was not far away over the Gulf of Mexico and there was lots of wave action. I’m sure photographer skill was a factor as well.

 

[markinsac]

Hope you see this one Steve… I ran into an annoying issue with auto focus and subject detection. It finds the eye and nails the focus….in the reflection that is closer to the camera. This “yellowleg” is an example (mock-up) of what I occasionally encounter. The calmer the water the more frequently this occurs. The result is an out of focus bird if you shoot it anyway. I’ve been able to cope with this by re-framing the shot and that usually gets the eye detection back on the bird, not the closer reflection….
View attachment 87201

Hilarious. I was just reviewing my shots from a bird preserve yesterday and my Z8 focused on the reflection a lot!

 

[ajrmd]

I agree. And to add on, I think that photographer skill / practice is 80% of the equation with shots like that. Even when AF system evolve enough that they don't let go until the bird is underwater, a situation involving diving will still demand some skill on the part of the photographer.

That has been my experience with both Canon and Sony, but not Nikon. Usually with my R5 or a9ii the tracking stayed solid all of the way through the strike and depending on the amount of spray and/or how deeply the bird travelled under water the af system might lose af capture. What I experience with the Z8 and again it matters not whether I am in AA, WS, WL, Custom, etc. is that the AF tracks amazingly well through the dive sequence until the bird nears the water and then the af system wigs out through the sequence going oof before the strike usually ff’ing) and then it recovers several frames later after the bird emerges. It doesn’t appear to be grabbing on to splashes or particular specular highlights, rather it seems like the af system just loses it. Again, the bird hasn’t changed position drastically in the frame nor does there appear to be any apparent confounding factors. When I get home in a couple of days, I’ll wade through some sequences and see if I can post several to demonstrate my experiences.

I should note that my recent foray shooting spoonbills was spectacular and none of these issues manifested for the thousands of frames I took of them landing. The AF was spot on even against water for >95-98% of the shots. For some reason it’s different for Osprey and eagles traveling parallel to the plane of the sensor and striking. I’ve tried adjusting other af settings though they don’t appear to make a difference.

 

[Larry S.]

Thinking we may have wandered off the ranch a bit. The “poser” was the subject detection box on the critter’s eye was closer to the camera in the reflection than the duck itself. The muscovy duck shown here is a mock up of what I encountered. This focus issue only seems to occur when the water is smooth with one bird in the frame. Steve’s suggestion to not use S/D and use a small focus area will solve this problem. BIF is a different topic…

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