Z8 / M + Auto ISO / Lens Control Ring - Behaviour

[TonyF]

Just checking the following is the correct/expected behaviour of a Z8 in M + Auto ISO mode when you have exposure compensation assigned to the control ring ?

Step 1. When you start turning the control ring, the exposure meter in the EVF behaves as an exsposure compensation meter. You will see the EV compensation value changing, immediately, in real time until it gets to where you want it. (Lets say you dial in +1.3) There is no lag of any significance.

Step 2. When (or very soon after) you stop turning the control ring you've got the EV +/- value you want and can start shooting but the meter will now be displaying '0' (zero) Your EV value is still +1.3. If thats the value you want, everything is fine and you carry on shooting. It doesnt matter that the meter is now diplaying '0' or reverting to simply behaving as an exposure meter. (If you press the EV+/- button on the body at this point it will confirm that the current exposure compensation value is +1.3)

Step 3. You now want to change the EV value for a myriad of possible reasons and you want the EVF meter to kick in as an exposure compensation meter again. IE move from +1.3 to some other value. This time the control ring is working exactly as per step 1 but the reaction from the meter (showing the increments like like it did in Step 1) is not immediate / in real time. There is a significant lag where you don't see any value at all on the meter at the point you start turning the control ring again.

I can work with or around it most of the time but just checking that its normal behaviour.

 

[JAJohnson]

Step 3. You now want to change the EV value for a myriad of possible reasons and you want the EVF meter to kick in as an exposure compensation meter again. IE move from +1.3 to some other value. This time the control ring is working exactly as per step 1 but the reaction from the meter (showing the increments like like it did in Step 1) is not immediate / in real time. There is a significant lag where you don't see any value at all on the meter at the point you start turning the control ring again.

Just tried the steps you outlined. In step 3, I saw no perceptible lag in seeing exposure change on the exposure meter.

Z8 with 24-70 f/2.8 lens. M, Auto ISO.

 

[Viathelens]

I would not use the control ring set to ISO with auto ISO (although I do use auto ISO at times). When I set ISO to the control ring I simply set the ISO to a setting that I think will mostly work for the scene and subject and then turn the ring as needed, based on what I see the histogram doing inside the camera. I experimented with shooting this way recently when I was on a trip photographing Puffins. But I don't know what a "normal behavior" might be for the exposure meter.

 

[trav.sullivan]

Just tried the steps you outlined. In step 3, I saw no perceptible lag in seeing exposure change on the exposure meter.

@TonyF Just tried with Z8 + 600PF. Same result as @JAJohnson. Does this happen with all of your lenses? If you change the control ring to be aperture or auto ISO do you see the same lag as mentioned in Step 3?

 

[TonyF]

I would not use the control ring set to ISO with auto ISO (although I do use auto ISO at times). When I set ISO to the control ring I simply set the ISO to a setting that I think will mostly work for the scene and subject and then turn the ring as needed, based on what I see the histogram doing inside the camera. I experimented with shooting this way recently when I was on a trip photographing Puffins. But I don't know what a "normal behavior" might be for the exposure meter.

Sorry for any confusion here. Im not using the lens control ring for ISO. I have exposure compensation assigned to the control ring. My Mode is M+Auto ISO.

 

[JAJohnson]

Sorry for any confusion here. Im not using the lens control ring for ISO. I have exposure compensation assigned to the control ring. My Mode is M+Auto ISO.

No confusion on my part. I copied the steps 1 thru 3 as you described and there's no lag in seeing exposure change on the exposure meter in step 3.

 

[TonyF]

@TonyF Just tried with Z8 + 600PF. Same result as @JAJohnson. Does this happen with all of your lenses? If you change the control ring to be aperture or auto ISO do you see the same lag as mentioned in Step 3?

Thanks. I will try on another lens but wont be for a couple of days. Ive not tried with aperture yet but if I shoot in M (without Auto ISO) where i would assign ISO to my lens control ring, I dont see any perceptable lag when I subsequently want to tweak the ISO.

The thing when exposure compensation is assigned to the control ring (when in Mode M + Auto ISO) is that the exposure compensation value in the meter returns to '0' when you stop turning the lens control ring and start shooting but when I touch the ring again the exposuere value I dialled in does not display instantly again of the meter. Thats the nature of the lag I'm getting. There is a short period of time when nothing is displayed on the meter.

 

[TonyF]

No confusion on my part. I copied the steps 1 thru 3 as you described and there's no lag in seeing exposure change on the exposure meter in step 3.

Thanks. I should have replied to your post first. I've got what you are saying and it doesnt appear to behave the same as mine. Just to be sure - when you say 'exposure' you mean 'exposure compensation'

I assume that you also see the exposure compensation value return to '0' (zero) like step 2?

 

[trav.sullivan]

The thing when exposure compensation is assigned to the control ring (when in Mode M + Auto ISO) is that the exposure compensation value in the meter returns to '0' when you stop turning the lens control ring and start shooting but when I touch the ring again the exposuere value I dialled in does not display instantly again of the meter. Thats the nature of the lag I'm getting. There is a short period of time when nothing is displayed on the meter.

Understood. I don't see that lag. The yellow exp. comp. value appears the moment I move the control ring. Have you tried cleaning the contacts on the lens? Firmware all up to date? Just walking through the regular troubleshooting steps Hope you can resolve the issue.

 

[ButlerKid]

I don't pay attention to the exp comp "values" on the meter. I just look through the viewfinder as I rotate the ring and when the scene is exposed the way I want, I shoot. I don't worry about the value of exp comp.

 

[JAJohnson]

Thanks. I should have replied to your post first. I've got what you are saying and it doesnt appear to behave the same as mine. Just to be sure - when you say 'exposure' you mean 'exposure compensation'

I assume that you also see the exposure compensation value return to '0' (zero) like step 2?

Yes, the exposure sets to 0 (step 2) because Auto ISO is enabled. When you adjust exposure compensation, Auto ISO will adjust the ISO to adjust as well.

 

[TonyF]

Yes, the exposure sets to 0 (step 2) because Auto ISO is enabled. When you adjust exposure compensation, Auto ISO will adjust the ISO to adjust as well.

Thanks. I'm Ok with it doing that. So I'm back to step 3 being the only issue for me. Its OK that the meter reverts from showing the exposure compensation value in step 1 to showing exposure as '0' in step 2 because its now taking into account exposure compensation and working again like an exposure meter. Its the delay in reverting back to working as an exposure compensation meter in step 3 or maybe Nikon didnt design it to do that ?

 

[TonyF]

I don't pay attention to the exp comp "values" on the meter. I just look through the viewfinder as I rotate the ring and when the scene is exposed the way I want, I shoot. I don't worry about the value of exp comp.

Thats OK for me too for much of the time. The time when I really need to see where I am on the meter in the EVF is when Im shooting birds at 20fps and the backround lighting is such that I need to tweak it during the burst. Usually its dailing a little bit more positive exposure compensation in against the background of sky to avoid underexposre of the bird.

 

[TonyF]

Understood. I don't see that lag. The yellow exp. comp. value appears the moment I move the control ring. Have you tried cleaning the contacts on the lens? Firmware all up to date? Just walking through the regular troubleshooting steps Hope you can resolve the issue.

Thanks. Yep firmware is up to date. I think from what you are saying is that I could change my EVF display and use the yellow exp. comp. value instead of expecting it to happen on the meter?

PS: Im accustomed to it happening on the meter with the A1 so i was expecting the same with the Z8.

 

[trav.sullivan]

Thanks. Yep firmware is up to date. I think from what you are saying is that I could change my EVF display and use the yellow exp. comp. value instead of expecting it to happen on the meter?

PS: Im accustomed to it happening on the meter with the A1 so i was expecting the same with the Z8.

Apologies, I may have confused things. When I turn the control ring the exposure compensation value appear in yellow in the EVF. When I stop turning the ring the exposure compensation icon displays in the usual black + white to indicate a value other than zero is set, and the meter will display 0. The instant I turn the control ring again the yellow exposure compensation value appears in the EVF until I stop turning it. I don't see any lag in the exposure compensation value displaying. I hope that clarifies what I experience.

 

[TonyF]

Apologies, I may have confused things. When I turn the control ring the exposure compensation value appear in yellow in the EVF. When I stop turning the ring the exposure compensation icon displays in the usual black + white to indicate a value other than zero is set, and the meter will display 0. The instant I turn the control ring again the yellow exposure compensation value appears in the EVF until I stop turning it. I don't see any lag in the exposure compensation value displaying. I hope that clarifies what I experience.

Thanks. Raising the yellow EV indicator has actually helped me solve the issue. The problem is that I'm totally absorbed in watching the meter, like I would with a Sony, and not watching the yellow value indicator just to the right.

It would be nice if we had a customising option to choose should we prefer the meter to always display the current exposure compensation value on the meter instead of returning to zero. (when we are in M+Auto ISO mode) and I presume this would apply to aperture priority mode too.

 

[trav.sullivan]

It would be nice if we had a customising option to choose should we prefer the meter to always display the current exposure compensation value on the meter instead of returning to zero. (when we are in M+Auto ISO mode) and I presume this would apply to aperture priority mode too.

Glad you got it sorted. I'd be happy to have a control wheel on the body like the A1 rather than the lens. I had ISO set on the control ring but kept adjusting it inadvertently as I was walking around, so mostly have it disabled.

 

[DRwyoming]

I assume that you also see the exposure compensation value return to '0' (zero) like step 2?

That zero display while shooting in Manual with Auto ISO is perfectly normal. The meter you’re looking at while shooting is NOT an exposure comp indicator, it’s an exposure meter and in any auto exposure mode an exposure meter will stay at zero until you hit a high or low limit in the floating parameter, which in this case is ISO.

This confuses a lot of folks in part because in other automated exposure modes like aperture or shutter priority modes that line style indicator does show how much exposure compensation you have dialed in wile shooting. But when shooting in manual mode with either fixed ISO OR with Auto ISO that meter keeps working as an exposure meter and when in Auto ISO mode that will stay centered on zero until you exceed a high or low ISO limit. That’s basically what an auto exposure mode tries to do, keep exposure centered on zero if it can.

It would be better if Nikon coded their firmware to realize that as soon as you enable Auto ISO in manual mode you’re really switching the camera to an auto exposure mode and have that meter behave as an exposure comp indicator just like it does in other auto exposure modes.

 

[TonyF]

Thank You everyone for your replies so far. I can now better describe what I was first calling the 'lag' at step 3. At 20fps in the field it sure does feel like a lag but Ive learned something new based upon your help ...........

If you set an exposure comp value of 1.0 (in any mode where you can use exp comp) then let go of the control ring and let it settle back to zero.

If you now turn the control ring very slowly for more exp comp, you have to turn it quite some way before the meter kicks in again and shows the exp comp value. When it does so, it doesn't show 1.0. It deosnt show anything until it jumps the the next EV increment (1.3). If you stop and turn very slowly again it wont show anything until it shows the next increment (1.6) ans so on and so on.

At 20fps whist tracking a bird, it is this that I perceive as a lag. In test conditions its hardly noticable.

So thanks again. I know where I am at now. The answer for me would be a choice to have an exposure comp value that does not settle back to zero should you always want to see the current exp comp value on the EVF meter live in real time.

 

[TonyF]

That zero display while shooting in Manual with Auto ISO is perfectly normal. The meter you’re looking at while shooting is NOT an exposure comp indicator, it’s an exposure meter and in any auto exposure mode an exposure meter will stay at zero until you hit a high or low limit in the floating parameter, which in this case is ISO.

This confuses a lot of folks in part because in other automated exposure modes like aperture or shutter priority modes that line style indicator does show how much exposure compensation you have dialed in wile shooting. But when shooting in manual mode with either fixed ISO OR with Auto ISO that meter keeps working as an exposure meter and when in Auto ISO mode that will stay centered on zero until you exceed a high or low ISO limit. That’s basically what an auto exposure mode tries to do, keep exposure centered on zero if it can.

It would be better if Nikon coded their firmware to realize that as soon as you enable Auto ISO in manual mode you’re really switching the camera to an auto exposure mode and have that meter behave as an exposure comp indicator just like it does in other auto exposure modes.

Yes I couldnt agree more. Lets have the choice to choose whether it behaves as an exposure compensation meter (full time) when thats what we prefer it to do in M + Auto ISO mode.

I just checked out what you said about M mode (with fixed ISO) and I was surprised to find that you can dial in exposure compensation with the lens control ring and see it happening on both meter and yellow indicatior. It appears to retain that value but as you would expect, it has no impact upon actual exposure. So situation normal but if you dont know what your doing I can see how it might make you think that exp comp works in pure M mode.

 

[JAJohnson]

So situation normal but if you dont know what your doing I can see how it might make you think that exp comp works in pure M mode.

The nuances of operating mirrorless cameras are sometimes difficult to grasp. In this case, Nikon offers clear guidance in the reference guide. Like many others I sometimes need a reminder.

Exposure

onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com

 

[TonyF]

The nuances of operating mirrorless cameras are sometimes difficult to grasp. In this case, Nikon offers clear guidance in the reference guide. Like many others I sometimes need a reminder.

View attachment 97059

Exposure

onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com

Sorry I didnt mean that I didnt know what I was doing But you have selected that line in isolation so its now out of context and doesnt represent what I was talking about. Please dont do that because its annoying.

 

[JAJohnson]

Sorry I didnt mean that I didnt know what I was doing But you have selected that line in isolation so its now out of context and doesnt represent what I was talking about. Please dont do that because it’s annoying.

My point, as is clear from what I highlighted in your message, is that the nuance of what you mentioned about Manual mode and exposure compensation is in the reference guide. I didn’t mean it as as criticism of you.

 

[DRwyoming]

I just checked out what you said about M mode (with fixed ISO) and I was surprised to find that you can dial in exposure compensation with the lens control ring and see it happening on both meter and yellow indicatior. It appears to retain that value but as you would expect, it has no impact upon actual exposure. So situation normal but if you dont know what your doing I can see how it might make you think that exp comp works in pure M mode.

Actually exposure compensation does work in full manual mode, dialing in exposure compensation changes the meaning of a zero exposure meter reading. It basically shifts the metering up or down by shifting the reference level.

Basically all modern cameras implement exposure compensation by changing the reference point of the meter. IOW, instead of say 18% reflected light representing a meter zero reading the meter zero point is shifted when you dial in positive or negative exposure compensation. So even when shooting in full manual mode with manually set ISO, when you dial in a non zero exposure compensation the meter reference point (zero point) shifts up or down so what zero means changes with exposure compensation. When you reset the exposure comp to zero then the meter readings are exactly what you'd expect for a given light level, shutter speed and aperture.

This is easy to test and demonstrate. Set the camera to full manual mode with manual ISO and set exposure compensation to zero. Point it at a scene indoors or outside in steady light and adjust shutter speed, aperture, ISO or some combination of those to achieve a zero meter reading. Now dial in say 1 stop of positive exposure compensation and see that the same scene in the same light with the same camera exposure settings now reads one stop underexposed and you'll need to add one stop by changing shutter speed, aperture or ISO to add one more stop of light. Basically dialing in exposure compensation has shifted the meaning of a zero exposure meter reading(shifted the meaning of proper exposure) even when shooting in a full manual mode with manually set ISO.

Exposure compensation follows the same logic when shooting in an automated exposure mode like aperture or shutter priority or manual with auto ISO, dialing in non-zero exposure compensation shifts the target exposure meter zero setting and the automated mode adjusts the floating parameter to try to hold that meter reading to zero if it can.

 

[TonyF]

Actually exposure compensation does work in full manual mode, dialing in exposure compensation changes the meaning of a zero exposure meter reading. It basically shifts the metering up or down by shifting the reference level.

Basically all modern cameras implement exposure compensation by changing the reference point of the meter. IOW, instead of say 18% reflected light representing a meter zero reading the meter zero point is shifted when you dial in positive or negative exposure compensation. So even when shooting in full manual mode with manually set ISO, when you dial in a non zero exposure compensation the meter reference point (zero point) shifts up or down so what zero means changes with exposure compensation. When you reset the exposure comp to zero then the meter readings are exactly what you'd expect for a given light level, shutter speed and aperture.

This is easy to test and demonstrate. Set the camera to full manual mode with manual ISO and set exposure compensation to zero. Point it at a scene indoors or outside in steady light and adjust shutter speed, aperture, ISO or some combination of those to achieve a zero meter reading. Now dial in say 1 stop of positive exposure compensation and see that the same scene in the same light with the same camera exposure settings now reads one stop underexposed and you'll need to add one stop by changing shutter speed, aperture or ISO to add one more stop of light. Basically dialing in exposure compensation has shifted the meaning of a zero exposure meter reading(shifted the meaning of proper exposure) even when shooting in a full manual mode with manually set ISO.

Exposure compensation follows the same logic when shooting in an automated exposure mode like aperture or shutter priority or manual with auto ISO, dialing in non-zero exposure compensation shifts the target exposure meter zero setting and the automated mode adjusts the floating parameter to try to hold that meter reading to zero if it can.

Thanks. Its good to understand more about the underying logic. The only thing that I would add is that the outcomes are different. Actual exposure (outcome in the field) doesnt change with non-zero exposure compensation inputs when in pure M mode but with the other relvant auto modes, it does. The way Nikon have got it configured (for the relvant auto modes) in practical field use terms doesn't give you an option to always see the current exposure compensation value live in real time (if thats what you want) like my A1 did and I believe Canon show it this way too. (I think you subscribed to a previous post where an ex -Canon user was confused about the Nikon meter returning to zero)

So thanks again, this is all helpful stuff because I've logged a request with Nikon for a future customizing option to dispalay the current exposure compensation value (and not return to zero) when in the relevant auto modes. Pure M mode would remain unaffected. I know I'm not the first to do so but the more that ask, the better.