z9 Failure

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Wes Peterson said:
this is the card he says he was using.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08DK8XGTG/?tag=backcogaller-20
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Thanks - I missed that. The Delkin Prime cards are older and quite slow in comparison to current cards. But with Single shots and the same experience with different cards, I'd rule out a card issue.

It sounds like a bug - probably introduced in recent firmware. It might have been fixed in 3.0 since that includes bug fixes.

With the D500 there was a problem with playback and review of UHS-II SD cards - especially if you played back an image while the buffer was still writing. Nikon never could completely fix it as 95% of the issues were with one brand of card - and the card maker was pointing at Nikon without a solution. What they ended up doing was a firmware update so that rather than locking up, the write speed slowed to UHS-I speeds when the error was encountered. It reset when the camera went into sleep mode or was turned off. That was a pretty elegant solution to a difficult problem involving both cards and the camera.

I suspect this is something similar. Something is in the processing or playback loop that is locking up and causing the cache or some other internal component to fail to clear. A firmware update should resolve the issue even if it's a workaround. It's also possible there was a new supplier of a component or firmware in a component that are the source of the issue, and that could result in a recall if a firmware solution was not possible.

I wonder if there was some common combination of settings used in these cameras. It seems unlikely, but maybe this is something repeatable with certain shutter speeds and other settings. Nikon has previously reported bug fixes that sometimes occur with a specific combination of settings.

I appreciate all the good information and details from Dennis and Bill. It helps to understand the problem so we at least have an idea of what to look for if others have a similar issue.
 
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EricBowles said:
Thanks - I missed that. The Delkin Prime cards are older and quite slow in comparison to current cards. But with Single shots and the same experience with different cards, I'd rule out a card issue.

It sounds like a bug - probably introduced in recent firmware. It might have been fixed in 3.0 since that includes bug fixes.

With the D500 there was a problem with playback and review of UHS-II SD cards - especially if you played back an image while the buffer was still writing. Nikon never could completely fix it as 95% of the issues were with one brand of card - and the card maker was pointing at Nikon without a solution. What they ended up doing was a firmware update so that rather than locking up, the write speed slowed to UHS-I speeds when the error was encountered. It reset when the camera went into sleep mode or was turned off. That was a pretty elegant solution to a difficult problem involving both cards and the camera.

I suspect this is something similar. Something is in the processing or playback loop that is locking up and causing the cache or some other internal component to fail to clear. A firmware update should resolve the issue even if it's a workaround. It's also possible there was a new supplier of a component or firmware in a component that are the source of the issue, and that could result in a recall if a firmware solution was not possible.

I wonder if there was some common combination of settings used in these cameras. It seems unlikely, but maybe this is something repeatable with certain shutter speeds and other settings. Nikon has previously reported bug fixes that sometimes occur with a specific combination of settings.

I appreciate all the good information and details from Dennis and Bill. It helps to understand the problem so we at least have an idea of what to look for if others have a similar issue.
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I get that he was shooting in single shot while walking around in the paddock, but I highly doubt that was the case while shooting panning shots. 99.9% of people who shoot panning shots of cars shoot in bursts.... at around 15fps, 55mb each then add in chimping to see if the car is sharp and I could for sure see issues with using cards not recommended by the manufacturer. None of that is to say the camera bricking is justified.
 
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I was shooting single with my panning shots. Occasionally i might shoot C for a max of four exposures. As i said previously I spend time to pick the high point of the turn and that’s where I shoot. Not twenty or thirty captured the edit down to the one that’s the high point. I approach slow shutter speeds the same way I approach fast shutter speeds. DG
 
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Wes Peterson said:
Thats not entirely true...

https://www.streetmusclemag.com/tech-stories/the-invisible-enemy-under-your-hood/
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Another ridiculous article. My 16 spark plug engine has the Digital Motor Electronics modules (2 of them) less than 3 feet from said spark plug wires, and coils. Do you think the plugs interfere with any computer system in the entire car?

AM has always been susceptible to noise from any electrical interference because noise affects amplitude --- which is where information is stored in an AM wave signal.

Your radial tires give off significant electrical fields. Can you not take photographs from the inside of your moving car because of EMI?

Again, you guys are reaching for what is an obvious major defect.
 
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oh, another thing that is different. i'm guessing they were all using automobile subject detection/tracking and i bet not a lot of people are giving that a heavy workout. maybe there's a weird bug in there.
 
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oh, back on the 100-400 thing. i've done quite a bit of heavy and prolonged action shooting with the 100-400 and as far as i know, it's a pretty popular lens and i haven't heard of anyone else having problems. just a datapoint.
 
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tickle_my_nikon said:
Another ridiculous article. My 16 spark plug engine has the Digital Motor Electronics modules (2 of them) less than 3 feet from said spark plug wires, and coils. Do you think the plugs interfere with any computer system in the entire car?

AM has always been susceptible to noise from any electrical interference because noise affects amplitude --- which is where information is stored in an AM wave signal.

Your radial tires give off significant electrical fields. Can you not take photographs from the inside of your moving car because of EMI?

Again, you guys are reaching for what is an obvious major defect.
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Since none of us have any idea what we are talking about and you’re the expert, perhaps instead of telling us how little we know, you could offer something helpful to the conversation or even better tell us the cause of the issue right after you offer your assistance to the Nikon engineers on solving their major defect. 🤦‍♂️
 
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tickle_my_nikon said:
Another ridiculous article. My 16 spark plug engine has the Digital Motor Electronics modules (2 of them) less than 3 feet from said spark plug wires, and coils. Do you think the plugs interfere with any computer system in the entire car?

AM has always been susceptible to noise from any electrical interference because noise affects amplitude --- which is where information is stored in an AM wave signal.

Your radial tires give off significant electrical fields. Can you not take photographs from the inside of your moving car because of EMI?

Again, you guys are reaching for what is an obvious major defect.
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no - "Again, you guys are reaching for what is an obvious major defect" . . we're looking for a reason that shut down four top range cameras. If there's something common to all at the time, it's definitely worth looking at. Is it a defect if external sources cause the cameras to fail? Maybe but at least we will know. This thread is sharing thoughts and answers.
Modern cars have very different electronics and electrical systems to cars of even a few decades ago, let alone a century.
 
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tickle_my_nikon said:
Another ridiculous article. My 16 spark plug engine has the Digital Motor Electronics modules (2 of them) less than 3 feet from said spark plug wires, and coils. Do you think the plugs interfere with any computer system in the entire car?

AM has always been susceptible to noise from any electrical interference because noise affects amplitude --- which is where information is stored in an AM wave signal.

Your radial tires give off significant electrical fields. Can you not take photographs from the inside of your moving car because of EMI?

Again, you guys are reaching for what is an obvious major defect.
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Im not, if you bothered to read my posts you would see Im not advocating for the EMI theory only that there is plenty of EMI that comes from ignition systems. Also of note. your engine management system is shielded from EMI for a reason.
 
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Dennis Gray said:
I was shooting single with my panning shots. Occasionally i might shoot C for a max of four exposures. As i said previously I spend time to pick the high point of the turn and that’s where I shoot. Not twenty or thirty captured the edit down to the one that’s the high point. I approach slow shutter speeds the same way I approach fast shutter speeds. DG
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Im not saying you are shooting long bursts but even a small burst in raw lossless would create a pretty sizeable backlog on what is essentially the slowest cards that will "work" in a Z9. What if the Z9 has a MINIMUM transfer rate that exceeds the max sustained write speed of those cards? Then when its writing you chimp quick to see if you got the shot....

edited to add: the cards likely could handle single shots no problem but as soon as you try cramming a burst into it the write speed would drop.
 
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Let's keep emotions out. Modern vehicle electric systems differ hugely from those a century past. Did they even have capacitors in the 1920's? Transistors are relatively new too.
I'd not be surprised if modern circuit boards can get damaged by bursts of high energy radio waves.
Amateur Radio operators know full well the issues of danger potentially from high EMF (radiation) from their antennas - especially when operating at shows etc etc ( my call is M5PM)
 
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On the EM hypothesis: the track itself has numerous radio signals floating around, from corner worker two-ways to car telemetry systems, to who-know-what for timing and team radios.

I’m sure Nikon either knows what the problem is already, or has a local rep headed to the Laguna Seca to test a Z9 to repro this problem.

Hopefully it’s not an EM issue, cause that could be a recall situation for the camera if there’s some inadequate shielding on some part of the camera.
 
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Chris K said:
I’m sure Nikon either knows what the problem is already, or has a local rep headed to the Laguna Seca to test a Z9 to repro this problem.
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you are much more optimistic than i. i suspect they'll fix the cameras and that'll be it. but i _hope_ they will do a root cause analysis, i just don't think they will. (and this isn't a knock on nikon, very few companies would attempt to root cause a problem coming in through normal support channels)
 
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John Navitsky said:
you are much more optimistic than i. i suspect they'll fix the cameras and that'll be it. but i _hope_ they will do a root cause analysis, i just don't think they will. (and this isn't a knock on nikon, very few companies would attempt to root cause a problem coming in through normal support channels)
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+1

Not expecting any thing from Nikon other than repair.
 
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Dennis Gray said:
I have been an NPS member since 1974 or whatever Nikon called the group then. I have always found them to be responsive to my needs. I'll post whatever I find out about this z9 problem or problems as soon as I know anything.
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Thank you, I always like to hear what the problem actually is and not just because Im a Z9 owner. I just think its all very interesting.
 
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realspeed said:
maybe someone can explain to me why anyone would shoot hundred/ thousands of photos machine gun style instead of using a decent camcorder. I just can't see the point in looking through that number to find the "perfect" shot. Don't get me wrong I still use my Nikon D810
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Not sure I understand "machine gun style" - Although I have the camera set on Continuous Low shutter release - I rarely take more than 1 shot at a time - having shot race cars for decades there is a moment I want to capture - hitting the apex of a corner, position of group of cars, etc - as I learned early in the 'Old Fashion Days" if you see the shot in the view finder you missed it - that said the weekend when the camera failed the event had a little over 200 cars entered - they were on track twice a day and usually for 10 laps - so taking 1 shot per lap, per car over the 3 days equals 12K images - that said - I certainly don't shot every car every lap, but it doesn't take long to fill a card - assuming the camera is working!
 
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I've been following this thread with interest (having just purchased a Z9)...in many ways it reminds me of bugs that crop up in hardware or in apps (I teach computer science), where lock-ups /failures take place only after a very specific sequence of key strokes or a very specific mix of hardware and software. Today's cameras are so complex, and with the continued evolution of AI assisted focusing, introducing more and more complex programming to tasks performed with each shot, even Nikon may not be able to do more than tell you what failed as opposed to why it failed unless they can replicate it in the lab. Looking forward to hearing what they tell you.
 
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John Navitsky said:
oh, back on the 100-400 thing. i've done quite a bit of heavy and prolonged action shooting with the 100-400 and as far as i know, it's a pretty popular lens and i haven't heard of anyone else having problems. just a datapoint.
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Yeah, it's a very popular zoom lens on the Z system. I've just noted that I see the Z9 "locking up" and "failure" posts always disproportionately discussing this lens on the Z9. Just as this thread is discussing the 100-400 at the same time they had multiple failures. Not blaming the lens. Just noting the coincidence.


John Navitsky said:
oh, another thing that is different. i'm guessing they were all using automobile subject detection/tracking and i bet not a lot of people are giving that a heavy workout. maybe there's a weird bug in there.
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I personally think it's a firmware issue causing the camera to overheat. Thermal failure. That's what progressive failure looks like. That particular mode could be more difficult for the camera to track, or process (larger subject in the frame vs looking for an eye or head).

John Navitsky said:
@tickle_my_nikon yah, i would think if it's some sort of external interference that it would likely have to be novel and strong like sitting in the middle of a 5g ultaband spot, or strong microwave or strong radar
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If they had the cameras right next to the cars, someone was inside revving them up, because they were doing photograph sessions of the cars with the driver I might ignore the absurdity of the comments.

However, these are moving vehicles on a track and you want to say "spark plugs did it" and not a critical defect from Nikon either thermally or in their firmware? The cellular phone in their pocket is a higher source of radio waves, and electromagnetic interference than anything possibly coming off the cars from whatever short distance they're positioned relative to the cars.

I particularly don't like the tone of the responses on here trying to lay it off on @Dennis Gray as if it's his fault, and his comrades fault, and not obviously a Nikon issue.

This isn't specific to Nikon. Sony A1 users have all kind of failures from thermal issues, crashes, and the like. That's why the R3 is only 24mp.
 
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tickle_my_nikon said:
Yeah, it's a very popular zoom lens on the Z system. I've just noted that I see the Z9 "locking up" and "failure" posts always disproportionately discussing this lens on the Z9. Just as this thread is discussing the 100-400 at the same time they had multiple failures. Not blaming the lens. Just noting the coincidence.




I personally think it's a firmware issue causing the camera to overheat. Thermal failure. That's what progressive failure looks like. That particular mode could be more difficult for the camera to track, or process (larger subject in the frame vs looking for an eye or head).



If they had the cameras right next to the cars, someone was inside revving them up, because they were doing photograph sessions of the cars with the driver I might ignore the absurdity of the comments.

However, these are moving vehicles on a track and you want to say "spark plugs did it" and not a critical defect from Nikon either thermally or in their firmware? The cellular phone in their pocket is a higher source of radio waves, and electromagnetic interference than anything possibly coming off the cars from whatever short distance they're positioned relative to the cars.

I particularly don't like the tone of the responses on here trying to lay it off on @Dennis Gray as if it's his fault, and his comrades fault, and not obviously a Nikon issue.

This isn't specific to Nikon. Sony A1 users have all kind of failures from thermal issues, crashes, and the like. That's why the R3 is only 24mp.
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I don't know of a single report of a thermal issue with the Z9 - certainly not in a single shot mode. There are some cases with specific cards overheating, but even then the camera has continued to perform.

You may be right about a bug in a recent firmware update. Given that they just released firmware 3.0, it may not matter going forward. Or another bug fix may be required. There are other cases where firmware did not cause an issue, but firmware can be used to resolve it. The D500 had a problem with UHS-II memory cards from Lexar that was resolved with a firmware update that temporarily changed how the camera responded when a write error was encountered.
 
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EricBowles said:
I don't know of a single report of a thermal issue with the Z9 - certainly not in a single shot mode. There are some cases with specific cards overheating, but even then the camera has continued to perform.
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yah, afaik, thermal problems are typically driven by the card heating up and afaik, it's almost impossible to get an xqd card to overheat because you can't push them hard enough. (that said, some older cfe-b cards definitely get hot.... IF pushed hard)

but even even if you did, the camera has thermal warnings.

not saying it's not what happened, but it seems unlikely
 
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