Z9 First Date Jitters

[AlanB313]

Hang in there and keep us posted! I will be in the same boat sometime soon, I'm still shooting with my d500 and have great f glass I'll use at first. I'll be following your journey.

About that silent shutter, it depends on what you shoot. Sometimes people subjects might like to know you are taking pictures rather than being secretive. But I was staking out Virginia rails and sora at close range in the reeds yesterday and they would have given me only one chance with my d500 clatter. ( I missed anyway).

 

[Cameron T]

I thought I mentioned the settings somewhere. But now I see the utility of getting the images posted in the formatting that will show the EXIF data.
But for the dog image; f/18 1/250 ISO 10000 so a smoking gun I suppose. And probably some willie-nilllie AF setting.
The deep crop was only to show the background at 100% and how it looks like a Claude Monet painting type texture. There was no photographic integrity intended. I had never seen images look so cartoonish. But, I've also never owned a 45mp camera either.

Why are you shooting at f18? Between diffraction and high iso I'm not surprised it's soft

 

[Ralph]

All good points too. I realize the "comparison" of my 2 examples, not apples to apples I agree. But, I was just trying to show, to me, the freakish looking Z9 image at high zoom, regardless of the helmet shot. I've just never seen anything like it. And as mentioned in another reply, I've never owned a 45mp camera either.

Aside from my initial testing with not so optimal shutter speed, aperture and iso on a basically very overcast day, I get it. My next outing, I will bring both my D5 and the Z9 and shoot with the F mount 70-200 2.8 and swap the lens between bodies at each shot with similar shutter, aperture, iso settings. I am curious how the backgrounds will look comparatively zoomed in at 100%.

Maybe I have to get over the idea that a 45mp image is going to look tack-sharp at 100% if all other things being equal compared to my D5?

Comparing it to a D5 is still not apples to apples. A d5 is only 20.8 mp.

 

[John Navitsky]

I thought I mentioned the settings somewhere. But now I see the utility of getting the images posted in the formatting that will show the EXIF data.
But for the dog image; f/18 1/250 ISO 10000 so a smoking gun I suppose. And probably some willie-nilllie AF setting.
The deep crop was only to show the background at 100% and how it looks like a Claude Monet painting type texture. There was no photographic integrity intended. I had never seen images look so cartoonish. But, I've also never owned a 45mp camera either.

so some thoughts.

my primary thing is shooting dogs, so it's a subject near and dear to my heart.

with running dogs, i default to shooting at 1/2000s, i'll go higher in good light, and i might creep down to 1/1600s or in extreme situations, maybe 1/1250s.

yes, there are cases where with panning or other situations you can reasonably go lower, but the way i tell people is that you should only go lower if you know why it will work.

keep in mind, both motion blur and missed focus can look like "noise", and i'd rather have a (somewhat) noisy, but sharp image rather than one with motion blur or missed focus which are basically unusable.

the other thing is, i basically shoot everything wide open. i think you said this is with the 70-200, so i'd be shooting this at f/2.8. perhaps you have a specific reason to shoot at f/18, but you'll have to factor in the impact that has on the photo, in this case, primarily iso, but perhaps diffraction as well.

so here's an example of putting some of these things together. the following photo was shot indoors in poor light with a very fast dog jumping through the air at 1/2000s, with a 400 4.5, so it was shot at f/4.5 (wide open). my iso ended up being 25,000. yes, it has been run through lr denoise, but basically, sharp is better than motion blur.

https://flic.kr/p/2qALXAH

 

[John Navitsky]

Also, just to level set the possibilities of this camera, here's a photo on a grey dark and drizzling day. This is an opportunistic candid, so I'm set up for action, but running 1/1600s because of the lighting, again with the 400 4.5 @ f/4.5.

I'm not saying you should expect these results every shot, but I am saying there's a lot of space to get different results, and I try to stack up all the little bits of knowledge, tips and tricks and technique, and if you can get the pile high enough, and if chance favors you, the result can be quite nice.

https://flic.kr/p/2pecgcv

 

[John Navitsky]

And probably some willie-nilllie AF setting.

About AF. This is a fairly involved subject and after three years with this camera I still have much room for improvement in both knowledge and skill.

However, some general observations.

There is some optimizations you'll want to do in terms of settings to get set up for action. I recommend the setup videos from Hudson Henry on Youtube. He walks through the settings and has some optimizations for action.

Our own Steve of BCG has an e-book on the Nikon mirrorless af system that's worth checking out. His related book on Nikon DSLR AF was really a c-change in my game when I was running DSLR. Understanding how the AF modes work is a key building block to sucessfully shooting action.

Next, the smaller the subject is in the frame, the more likely the subject detection/af will miss. Without seeing the whole image, it's a bit hard to tell what your original looked like, but I get the impression the dog isn't very large in the frame. This is OK if the dog is merely an element of the photo, and in those cases, when viewed as a whole, the focus may not be "a problem". But if the dog is the focus of the shot, you will benefit from framing the dog larger in the frame both from an af perspective, but also from a image quality perspective.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

John’s emphasis on shutter speed is well placed. The higher the mp count the more subject motion can confound things. When I first got my Z8 I hobbled around in my yard taking pictures of flowers and insects.

I was very disappointed in all of them. I thought IBIS would be a lifeline. But no. The problem wasn’t camera shake it was the light wind moving the subject “just that much.”

Now, unless I actually WANT motion blur I err on the high side of the shutter speed scale.

Give yourself and the camera more breathing space. Experiment. Relax. And remember, these cameras will take very, very good images.

 

[John Navitsky]

Give yourself and the camera more breathing space. Experiment. Relax.

also this

 

[Larry S.]

Certainly the learning curve is steep…. Some thoughts…learned from many endeavors..
1. If I read about it and try to figure it out …..I likely will not understand and get confused and discouraged…
2. If you tell me how to find success ….I might try that to advance my skills….maybe..
3. But, if you show me, I will remember and retain that knowledge… this is the way to gain confidence in all creative disciplines…and succeed…
…. The “take-away” is someone, a friend, another photographer or helpful dealer that can do a hands on session with you.

 

[beano]

Getting shots with a 20MP DX D500 should be identical to getting shots with a 45MP FX D850/Z9 as the pixel density is almost exactly the same. Therefore, given the same subject it will move across the same number of pixels in a given amount of time.
Your point can make sense if comparing a 20MP FX camera to a 45MP FX camera (although even then only if pixel peeping to 100% on both which magnifies the 45MP one much more)

The OP should have similar experience with safe shutter speeds between his D500 and Z9.

The dog vs helmet example is pointless. One is shot is good light at likely much closer distance with little to no subject movement. The other is shot in low light, further from the subject and straight on action which is the most difficult for any AF system to hold onto and gets worse the lower the light is.

We need to see some actual comparisons of the same subject, same exposure settings, same day to get any meaningful comparison.

True, I had forgotten the pixel-density between these are only 5-7% difference. I was thinking of my Zf with its 24Mp FX sensor. Sigh. Lack of coffee, I plead. Or stupidity, one of these

 

[Captain Spaulding]

True, I had forgotten the pixel-density between these are only 5-7% difference. I was thinking of my Zf with its 24Mp FX sensor. Sigh. Lack of coffee, I plead. Or stupidity, one of these

I don’t think you’re any of the above. The OP stated pretty clearly they were comparing their Z9 with their D5. Not 500. So, 20Mp full frame v 45Mp full frame.

 

[EricBowles]

With the Z9 you have a high performance, professional tool. It will handle the basics with all the capabilities you had in your D5, and only modest changes in those focus modes. You can fall back to the old reliable things that worked.

But the real reason you get a new, high performance camera is to explore the new capabilities. Just keep in mind it's a step up from the basics, and you need to get comfortable with the basics first.

For example, you'll find the basic focus modes of the D5/D500 are all there with the Z9 - Single, Dynamic in different sizes, and Group AF. In the Z9 you have three sizes of Dynamic and they look slightly different - but they are near the same. Group is replaced with Wide modes and that's where the magic happens. The Wide modes all incorporate Subject Tracking, but the subject still needs to be large enough in the frame and you need good light with a good AF target. If the Face/Eye is dark or not easily visible, you'll need to make changes to brighten the face using exposure settings, or switch to an alternate mode/target. You might also try using a smaller AF area to let the camera know where to look. There is a lot of capability to use programmed controls to help temporarily change AF modes to help pre-focus or focus near your subject.

Frame rate - especially with large files - is another big change. The D5/D500 were fast - and the Z9 has much larger files and is even faster. Feel free to shoot bursts where appropriate for that perfect subject position, but keep in mind you don't need many photos from a burst with static subjects.

The EVF is different but I found it really nice - especially in lower light. Be careful about getting lulled into using an EVF when you are also shooting your D5/D500 - the optical viewfinder is not an EVF and does not represent real exposure settings - as I rudely found during an early shoot using two cameras.

 

[beano]

I don’t think you’re any of the above. The OP stated pretty clearly they were comparing their Z9 with their D5. Not 500. So, 20Mp full frame v 45Mp full frame.

Haha, somehow I read the OP was referring to D5 and Z9, but when I replied, I had that FX-FX pixel density in mind, but referenced the dx d500. Sigh. Lack of coffee then.

Sometimes it‘s just to early for me to post meaningful replies

@arbitrage: I edited my reply of earlier to indicate I was referring to the d5, not the d500, but somehow had a short-circuit in my old grey box.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

lol. Join the club .

 

[beano]

lol. Join the club .

Haha, just to much going on at the same time, and only 3 or 4 braincells to deal with all the traffic, Cappie. And then still getting ready for our relocation to Portugal in the next month, that‘s gotta keep some of them busy, hey…

Enjoy your weekend that side!

 

[tahoemike00]

I feel I kind of stirred up a little dust with my original post. So I'll add to the saga, and honestly feel sheepish about even making this post.
But I feel that I owe this thread an update.

Caveat: I neglected to mention that this camera was “refurbished” but visually appeared flawless and shows 38,0xx “shutter count” if that even means anything on a mirrorless camera.. ("ah yes, the plot thickens")

Since receiving the Z9, embarrassingly I have put in at least 25 - 30 or more hours and several spent into the wee hours of the morning trying to get it set up, plus time spent watching with camera in hand watching and pausing youtube videos while changing settings along with the how-to's. Perusing countless forum threads, including BCG, and reading Steve's Secret to Auto focus as well as Setting up the Z8/Z9 from Steve. Googling until my knuckles hurt, testing and more trying to no avail. I have been using DSLR's for many years, and I feel that I am familiar with Nikons and their behaviors, of what I already own, and more than giddy with the quality I get out of them, but the Z9, it’s from another planet to me, regardless of all the input in this thread. I’ve never struggled so hard and so long trying to get a camera set up. Ever.

In addition to my struggles with image quality, I haven’t mentioned that the images I have shot so far, (maybe I did, but I plead the Coffee Defense) the output reminds me of the old Kodachrome slides/transparency 35mm film days. Just “not right” to my eye. I’ve tried both RGB and Adobe profiles in the settings. Still so 1970’s output.

Here’s the can of worms – and what I have been fighting along with trying to obtain at minimum, an acceptable image. The camera itself seems "possessed." When I am handling the camera trying various button configurations and test shots, the camera will start firing bursts of shots randomly. Sometimes 5 to 7 shots, and other times just 1 or 2 shots just holding the camera. One time it loosed off at least 30 frames after I set it down on my desk. At first I thought I was inadvertently hitting the shutter release button, but after paying close attention, that is not the case. I'm perplexed about that one.

The other strange thing is, several times when pressing the menu button to get in and yet again change and test another setting, the menu will pop up, then go back to the info screen after 1 to 2 seconds. Other times the menu button will do absolutely nothing at all. I've even had it fire a few frames when pushing the menu button. Again, I am really confused as to why the camera is behaving this way. Even picking the camera up from my desk or setting it back down, it will start firing shots, or the configuration menu that I am working in, disappears and goes back to the ready to shoot screen. There are several other things going on that I cannot explain either. Maybe this is why the camera was returned from the original camera store and then “refurbished” to re-sell.

I tell ya, I don’t want to be “that guy” - the new forum user waltzes in and starts with all the incompetent crazy talk. So maybe, just maybe this is the way the camera behaves and all of you are just accepting it as “that’s the way the Z9 rolls, get used to it” and if that’s the case more power to all of you. Unfortunately, I don’t have another Z9 or Z8 nor do I know anyone personally that owns one, so I have no basis for comparison to other Z9’s.

So at this point I am not even going to try to do side by side testing with a testing plan, if I am spending more time just getting the camera to behave pushing buttons and menus just to possibly get it to a baseline of minimally acceptable photos,

I have been in contact with the seller, and they seemed very quick to the draw saying I can return it for a full refund. Even when I suggested that I would keep trying to figure it out. Maybe they know something that I don’t.

Should I? Will I? Get another Z9?
*If* I do, it will be new… it's an incredible piece of engineering and technology, and I want to love it. But the first date went bad.

 

[Cameron T]

Here’s the can of worms – and what I have been fighting along with trying to obtain at minimum, an acceptable image. The camera itself seems "possessed." When I am handling the camera trying various button configurations and test shots, the camera will start firing bursts of shots randomly. Sometimes 5 to 7 shots, and other times just 1 or 2 shots just holding the camera. One time it loosed off at least 30 frames after I set it down on my desk. At first I thought I was inadvertently hitting the shutter release button, but after paying close attention, that is not the case. I'm perplexed about that one.

50$ says you're hitting the vertical shutter button, or otherwise.

The other strange thing is, several times when pressing the menu button to get in and yet again change and test another setting, the menu will pop up, then go back to the info screen after 1 to 2 seconds. Other times the menu button will do absolutely nothing at all. I've even had it fire a few frames when pushing the menu button. Again, I am really confused as to why the camera is behaving this way. Even picking the camera up from my desk or setting it back down, it will start firing shots, or the configuration menu that I am working in, disappears and goes back to the ready to shoot screen. There are several other things going on that I cannot explain either. Maybe this is why the camera was returned from the original camera store and then “refurbished” to re-sell.

Yeah...this really sounds like the vertical shutter button is getting hit/held while you're doing stuff. Make sure it's locked to off. Also make sure you're not holding the fn buttons accidentally.

 

[fulltimewanderer]

I feel I kind of stirred up a little dust with this post. So I'll add to the saga, and honestly feel sheepish about even making this post.
But I feel that I owe this thread an update.

Caveat: I neglected to mention that this camera was “refurbished” but visually appeared flawless and shows 38,0xx “shutter count” if that even means anything on a mirrorless camera.. ("ah yes, the plot thickens")

Since receiving the Z9, embarrassingly I have put in at least 25 - 30 or more hours and several spent into the wee hours of the morning trying to get it set up, plus time spent watching with camera in hand watching and pausing youtube videos while changing settings along with the how-to's. Perusing countless forum threads, including BCG, and reading Steve's Secret to Auto focus as well as Setting up the Z8/Z9 from Steve. Googling until my knuckles hurt, testing and more trying to no avail. I have been using DSLR's for many years, and I feel that I am familiar with Nikons and their behaviors, of what I already own, and more than giddy with the quality I get out of them, but the Z9, it’s from another planet to me, regardless of all the input in this thread. I’ve never struggled so hard and so long trying to get a camera set up. Ever.

In addition to my struggles with image quality, I haven’t mentioned that the images I have shot so far, (maybe I did, but I plead the Coffee Defense) the output reminds me of the old Kodachrome slides/transparency 35mm film days. Just “not right” to my eye. I’ve tried both RGB and Adobe profiles in the settings. Still so 1970’s output.

Here’s the can of worms – and what I have been fighting along with trying to obtain at minimum, an acceptable image. The camera itself seems "possessed." When I am handling the camera trying various button configurations and test shots, the camera will start firing bursts of shots randomly. Sometimes 5 to 7 shots, and other times just 1 or 2 shots just holding the camera. One time it loosed off at least 30 frames after I set it down on my desk. At first I thought I was inadvertently hitting the shutter release button, but after paying close attention, that is not the case. I'm perplexed about that one.

The other strange thing is, several times when pressing the menu button to get in and yet again change and test another setting, the menu will pop up, then go back to the info screen after 1 to 2 seconds. Other times the menu button will do absolutely nothing at all. I've even had it fire a few frames when pushing the menu button. Again, I am really confused as to why the camera is behaving this way. Even picking the camera up from my desk or setting it back down, it will start firing shots, or the configuration menu that I am working in, disappears and goes back to the ready to shoot screen. There are several other things going on that I cannot explain either. Maybe this is why the camera was returned from the original camera store and then “refurbished” to re-sell.

I tell ya, I don’t want to be “that guy” - the new forum user waltzes in and starts with all the incompetent crazy talk. So maybe, just maybe this is the way the camera behaves and all of you are just accepting it as “that’s the way the Z9 rolls, get used to it” and if that’s the case more power to all of you. Unfortunately, I don’t have another Z9 or Z8 nor do I know anyone personally that owns one, so I have no basis for comparison to other Z9’s.

So at this point I am not even going to try to do side by side testing with a testing plan, if I am spending more time just getting the camera to behave pushing buttons and menus just to possibly get it to a baseline of minimally acceptable photos,

I have been in contact with the seller, and they seemed very quick to the draw saying I can return it for a full refund. Even when I suggested that I would keep trying to figure it out. Maybe they know something that I don’t.

Should I? Will I? Get another Z9?
*If* I do, it will be new… it's an incredible piece of engineering and technology, and I want to love it. But the first date went bad.

I’ve never encountered the type of problems that you are describing. My first thought was to suggest you do a factory reset, but then I saw that you have done that. So with everything that you’ve encountered and experienced it may be in you best interest to return it, especially since you mentioned that it is a refurbished item. Act quickly Nikon does have a sale going on new Z9’s, believe it’s like $500.00 off. I wish you all the best in whatever decision you make. Stay in touch with the forum let us know of your decision is and don’t hesitate to reach out for any further assistance. So sorry for your experience.

 

[AlanB313]

Personally, I would return it. But, I am not a mirrorless user and have no experience with a z9. It just doesn't sound right to me. Nikon USA has refurbished z9s on sale right now for $4200. I'd have confidence buying it from them based on previous good personal experience (but not with a z9). Somehow I don't think you will have the same experience with a different one. I have a friend who loves his z9 and he had a d750 before that.

 

[Larry S.]

Take a deep breath…. Slow down. Prioritize your difficulties with your Z9 and present them here….not all at once… Pick one that will advance knowledge and lead to better understanding and may clarify other issues… If you have a Nikon ”brick & mortar” dealer near you they will likely be able to walk you through some of your conundrums with your camera….. Some dealers will have “educational events” at their business location to assist customers (and others) have a better understand of their cameras. These events are most often lead by a company rep, Nikon, Canon, etc… And they are normally FREE…. You will have to sign up… At these classes you will likely meet other photographers with similar questions…

Even if you did not buy your camera from XYZ store they want your future business and will be willing to be informative and helpful. They will answer your questions and explain how the Z9 works…… They want you to buy from them in the future….

I also highly recommend and endorse Steve Perry’s Z9 guide… Steve does NOT drag you into the “technical weeds” ….. It’s a few $ well spent and even comes with a table of contents. A little tension relief humor spread throughout is welcome also…

 

[tahoemike00]

Personally, I would return it. But, I am not a mirrorless user and have no experience with a z9. It just doesn't sound right to me. Nikon USA has refurbished z9s on sale right now for $4200. I'd have confidence buying it from them based on previous good personal experience (but not with a z9). Somehow I don't think you will have the same experience with a different one. I have a friend who loves his z9 and he had a d750 before that.

I’ve never encountered the type of problems that you are describing. My first thought was to suggest you do a factory reset, but then I saw that you have done that. So with everything that you’ve encountered and experienced it may be in you best interest to return it, especially since you mentioned that it is a refurbished item. Act quickly Nikon does have a sale going on new Z9’s, believe it’s like $500.00 off. I wish you all the best in whatever decision you make. Stay in touch with the forum let us know of your decision is and don’t hesitate to reach out for any further assistance. So sorry for your experience.

Thanks for the heads-up guys. Another glass of wine and that Nikon website refurb might be happening! And free 2 day delivery - hot dam!
I like the idea that it is from Nikon directly, and when they say refurbed, I am pretty sure they have stringent procedure to refurb, test and quality assure.

Thank you all again so much with your willingness and efforts to help me try to get it sorted out.

 

[Nimi]

Thanks for the heads-up guys. Another glass of wine and that Nikon website refurb might be happening! And free 2 day delivery - hot dam!
I like the idea that it is from Nikon directly, and when they say refurbed, I am pretty sure they have stringent procedure to refurb, test and quality assure.

Thank you all again so much with your willingness and efforts to help me try to get it sorted out.

A quick thought. Depending where you are, there might be a nearby experienced Z8/Z9 user on this forum who might be able to take a look at it and its setting.

 

[beano]

Thanks for the heads-up guys. Another glass of wine and that Nikon website refurb might be happening! And free 2 day delivery - hot dam!
I like the idea that it is from Nikon directly, and when they say refurbed, I am pretty sure they have stringent procedure to refurb, test and quality assure.

Thank you all again so much with your willingness and efforts to help me try to get it sorted out.

At least from what I read between the lines, that Z9 is not all honkey-dorie. If I were in your shoes, and like others have suggested, I would return it for a refund.

However, before you do, see if you can visit any camera-store near you that might have one, and take a few shots in-store. Other than the advance stuff, basic shooting should be very similar to your D5. If you have good Nikon experience, it should be a walk in the park.

Perhaps best to get one from somewhere else then, even new, as you just don’t know what that one’s been through. Even if refurbished, they might have missed locking one of the tiny multi-core flat cables inside, or pinched something. It shouldn’t behave as you indicated above.

edit: @Nimi ‘s idea is a good one too

 

[Captain Spaulding]

You’re experienced in dealing with high end digital cameras. You’re coming from a D5. That says something. There have been many good suggestions in this thread. If you’ve tried them all and nothing has worked something is missing somewhere.

My advice at this stage is 1. slow down for a bit and take stock of where you are. 2. As someone suggested, perhaps do a factory reset on the camera. Start with a clean slate and see where that takes you. Without knowing who refurbished the camera or how and why it was returned or what was done to it, your best move might be 3. a total reset. I.E. return the camera and buy a brand new one.

Edit: I see you have done a factory reset so option 3. may in the cards. Given your experience so far I’d suggest avoiding ANYTHING refurbished. I’ve been fortunate in my experience with used and refurbished gear, but it does introduce variables into the equation. Not all of them can be completely controlled for.

I recommend getting a brand spanking new one from the most reputable place you can find.

2nd Edit;

You mentioned wondering if users are simply putting up with problems with IQ. All cameras have quirks and the Zs are not immune, but I can assure you that as day follows night, these cameras will take exceptionally sharp images. I cannot for a second think anyone here is suffering in silence with blurry images.

 

[Ralph]

Thanks for the heads-up guys. Another glass of wine and that Nikon website refurb might be happening! And free 2 day delivery - hot dam!
I like the idea that it is from Nikon directly, and when they say refurbed, I am pretty sure they have stringent procedure to refurb, test and quality assure.

Thank you all again so much with your willingness and efforts to help me try to get it sorted out.

I would return it and start over. Eliminate the possibility that the camera is defective. This way when you get the next Z9 you will have eliminated any doubt about whether the camera is at fault.