Z9 sensor performance Photonstophotos

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fcotterill

fcotterill

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Data added 28th December by Bill Claff, who posted some insights in his dpr thread



An important insight from the Z9 DR and noise is the dual gain switches at ~ISO500 (compared to ~ISO 800 in Z6)

EDIT graphs added
PDR_D6_Z6_Z7_Z9.png


Read Noise D6_Z6_Z7_Z9.png


PDR_Shadow D6_Z6_Z7_Z9.png
 
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I'm no electronics engineer! In my my own interpretation one is carrying at least 2 cameras in one above and below a level of illumination/exposure. Or rather the same sensor being read by 2 different Analog amplifiers before the conversion of the Analog signal into digital (the pulses of photo-stimulated electrons are amplified). Why ? This is to minimize Read Noise before the weaker i.e. lowe amplitude signals are converted into digital.

The practical benefits apply to RAW images to optimize the tonality etc of images, as these can be postprocessed. The ISO is a metadata setting in the RAW file, but its value depends on the ISO setting applied to the exposure, because the settings are relative to one of two different baselines.

Each respective amplifier is reading the same sensor pixels but it differs in how it exposes (ie increases gain) of the darker tones relative to the lighter tones. The weaker, more sensitive amplifier works on signals under ISO400. The 2nd amplifier kicks in for higher ISOs because it is stronger, and provides a new baseline for DR even though the signal strength is weaker (ie darker scene): demanding higher gain....which injects more electronic noise. The stronger amplifier in the Z9 sensor kicks into action when ISO is set above 500. The corresponding switch over at ISO800 explains how the Z6 leverages more signal and DR, less Read Noise of its sensor. And the D780 uses the same sensor, which also parallels how the D5 records images in lowlight...

Stopping my interpretation at this point :) In my case, O'level and then 1st yr physics happened back in the 3rd quarter of the last century. So you are likely to find Steve's explanation in his Exposure book does a much better job. But these 2 articles explain it fairly well, at least for me:

Dual Gain Becoming the Norm | Sans Mirror | Thom Hogan

Dual gain on new mirrorless cameras
www.sansmirror.com www.sansmirror.com

more detailed and longer read: https://zsyst.com/2019/07/dual-base-iso-and-shot-noise/

also a rare species, the youtube video of pedagogical value:

John Navitsky said:
care to interpret for those of us in the back?
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Avoid ISO 250-400 as they are worse DR than ISO 500. Otherwise not much else you need to know about the Shadow Improvement graph.

Z9 is about 1/3 stop down on other high-MP sports/action MILCs for higher ISO work. More so to the R3 but that is low MP camera and using built-in RAW NR as indicated by the downwards pointing triangles on the R3 graph.
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John Navitsky said:
thanks. i did catch the dual gain issue at 400, but am more confused by the latter two charts, especially in relationship to the d6
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On the D6 according to the shadow improvement chart, it does some good to raise the iso in camera vs in post up to around 6400 or so where it levels out in camera, where the z9 after 400 no difference raising the shadows in post or in the camera.
 
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My take is this-
If you want to shoot frequently in really low light, then you need the D5 or D6
For everything else, the Z9, D850, Z7 or 6 of either type will be fantastic.
I have the Z9 and it is superb. But if I want to shoot in low light I will either be happy with what the Z9 can do or I will bring the D5. But the bottom line is that there is no magic bullet. No such thing as perfect, but I am sure going to enjoy my current crop of imperfection!:cool:
 
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arbitrage said:
More so to the R3 but that is low MP camera and using built-in RAW NR as indicated by the downwards pointing triangles on the R3 graph.
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Is it just me that “using built-in RAW NR” seems very significant? Especially considering people are saying that the high ISO performance is good. IE, comparing R3 RAWs to other cameras where no noise reduction has been applied is apples to oranges???!
 
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IainD said:
My take is this-
If you want to shoot frequently in really low light, then you need the D5 or D6
For everything else, the Z9, D850, Z7 or 6 of either type will be fantastic.
I have the Z9 and it is superb. But if I want to shoot in low light I will either be happy with what the Z9 can do or I will bring the D5. But the bottom line is that there is no magic bullet. No such thing as perfect, but I am sure going to enjoy my current crop of imperfection!:cool:
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Camera ratings.png



Nikon D69.18577210.85
 
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IainD said:
My take is this-
If you want to shoot frequently in really low light, then you need the D5 or D6
For everything else, the Z9, D850, Z7 or 6 of either type will be fantastic.
I have the Z9 and it is superb. But if I want to shoot in low light I will either be happy with what the Z9 can do or I will bring the D5. But the bottom line is that there is no magic bullet. No such thing as perfect, but I am sure going to enjoy my current crop of imperfection!:cool:
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This is exactly why I'm paring my Z9 with my D5 as my two bodies... but that was a hunch on my part when I made that decision!
 
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sid_19911991 said:
View attachment 29647


Nikon D69.18577210.85
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Not sure how these numbers are calculated.

R5 is not a BSI sensor; doesn't that imply less light reaching the sensor?

Also, D500 is not highly rated, but in my experience it performs way better than the numbers suggest. I barely ever get any chroma noise on the D500 even at iso 12800. Only luminance noise shows up early which can be corrected. It better than D850 in terms of chroma noise. R6 too... Didn't get the output that the numbers suggest here.

A7 iii lives up to rating though. Gem of a sensor.
 
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sid_19911991 said:
Not sure how these numbers are calculated.

R5 is not a BSI sensor; doesn't that imply less light reaching the sensor?

Also, D500 is not highly rated, but in my experience it performs way better than the numbers suggest. I barely ever get any chroma noise on the D500 even at iso 12800. Only luminance noise shows up early which can be corrected. It better than D850 in terms of chroma noise. R6 too... Didn't get the output that the numbers suggest here.

A7 iii lives up to rating though. Gem of a sensor.
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Are you sure your software isn't doing automatic chroma NR on import? LR does. I'm sure others like C1 do also. There is no way D500 at 12,800 isn't riddled with chroma noise if you grey out the chroma NR slider in your software of choice. Even ISO 3200 is riddled with it. I can post 1000s of examples if you want.
 
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arbitrage said:
Are you sure your software isn't doing automatic chroma NR on import? LR does. I'm sure others like C1 do also. There is no way D500 at 12,800 isn't riddled with chroma noise if you grey out the chroma NR slider in your software of choice. Even ISO 3200 is riddled with it. I can post 1000s of examples if you want.
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I only use Nikon Capture NXD & Gigapixel AI. I typically don't like correcting files too much for noise. I find it a tedious activity. Also, I am no good at it.

D500 gets soft with higher ISO & produces luminance noise. But even when I push the JPEGs I get very little chroma noise.

Here is an example. I shot it at 6400 ISO & later increased exposure by 1 EV, further increased brightness, recovered the shadows, & blurred the background a bit. It was shot in dull cloudy weather. D500 with 500pf.

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sid_19911991 said:
I only use Nikon Capture NXD & Gigapixel AI. I typically don't like correcting files too much for noise. I find it a tedious activity. Also, I am no good at it.

D500 gets soft with higher ISO & produces luminance noise. But even when I push the JPEGs I get very little chroma noise.

Here is an example. I shot it at 6400 ISO & later increased exposure by 1 EV, further increased brightness, recovered the shadows, & blurred the background a bit. It was shot in dull cloudy weather. D500 with 500pf.

Mobile screenshots

View attachment 29655
View attachment 29657
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In Capture NX-D go into the NR panel and zero out the color intensity slider. You will see a lot of green/purple.

ISO 6400

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ISO 12,800:

Screen Shot 2021-12-31 at 6.12.22 AM.jpg
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sid_19911991 said:
Also, D500 is not highly rated, but in my experience it performs way better than the numbers suggest.
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one problem is everyone has their own use case and tend to use that as a yardstick. most people don’t shoot in conditions where the d500 starts to really show it’s weakness.

i shoot dog sports, and indoor dog sports do uncover the limits of the d500. no camera really performs “well” in these conditions. the lighting in these venues tends to be very poor, and you have to shoot at high shutter speeds, fur isn’t very refractive and then you’ll get a black dog 🤣

but it is possible. but you have to work for it getting good exposures and doing a good job in post. but the results will still be incrementally worse than some other cameras.

ymmv
 
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John Navitsky said:
one problem is everyone has their own use case and tend to use that as a yardstick. most people don’t shoot in conditions where the d500 starts to really show it’s weakness.

i shoot dog sports, and indoor dog sports do uncover the limits of the d500. no camera really performs “well” in these conditions. the lighting in these venues tends to be very poor, and you have to shoot at high shutter speeds, fur isn’t very refractive and then you’ll get a black dog 🤣

but it is possible. but you have to work for it getting good exposures and doing a good job in post. but the results will still be incrementally worse than some other cameras.

ymmv
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That’s my experience too. The difference between a D500 and D850 is far greater than their very close pixel density would suggest. It clearly shows the generation difference in the technology that underpins the two sensors. I still think the sensor in the D850 was one of Nikon‘s greatest technological accomplishments but they never really promoted it.
 
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Incluso hoy trato de entender las horribles medidas de iso alto que obtuvo el D5 ... casi me hace dejar de comprar. Por suerte seguí adelante y es la mejor cámara que tengo. Esperando ver el z9
 
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FB101 said:
That’s my experience too. The difference between a D500 and D850 is far greater than their very close pixel density would suggest. It clearly shows the generation difference in the technology that underpins the two sensors. I still think the sensor in the D850 was one of Nikon‘s greatest technological accomplishments but they never really promoted it.
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What I found also and it really showed up when I got the 600mm f/4 E ... in real life shooting in low light the D500 was last with the D6 having an edge over the D850 but overall I had to give the edge to the D850 for the camera I kept as a back up to the Z9 I ordered nothing scientific just where I put my money. Who knows when I get a Z9 and learn how to use it I may wish I had kept the D6 for the second camera instead but right now that is speculation with no Z9 yet.
 
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