Am I really losing much converting NEF files to DNG

[ProperFrame]

2 cents worth. Nikon Rep Paul Van Allen in a zoom class represented that because DNG had to be reverse engineered to read Nikon files it is less accurate than Nikons NX Studio, specifically he cited color rendition. While it may appear true when comparing a NEF file side by side in both NX Studio and a program that converts the file to DNG I take it more as a promo for NX Studio which has work limits to say the least.

 

[bleirer]

I'm not sure why, but DxO Pureraw 2 will not import NEF star HE files yet but will if they are converted to DNG. I turn off global corrections because I don't think there is
much barrel or pincushion distortion at 500mm and I don't want any sharpening done that I don't have control over.

The photolab manual mentions it will open a dng if the camera is one on their supported list.

 

[O]

LOL I am a rare beast, i shoot 98% of everything Jpeg Fine, unless its very important and massive prints are needed, the cameras to day are that good.
Only an opinion

 

[Steve W]

As I still use Adobe CS6 because I refuse the pay monthly to use model, the NEF files from the later cameras cannot be read. I choose which photos I want to work with and convert the DNG, saving the original NEF. I gave on occasion processed the same photo using the Nikon software but find little if any difference just more clunky to use.

 

[O]

As I still use Adobe CS6 because I refuse the pay monthly to use model, the NEF files from the later cameras cannot be read. I choose which photos I want to work with and convert the DNG, saving the original NEF. I gave on occasion processed the same photo using the Nikon software but find little if any difference just more clunky to use.

I agree with the principal of not paying subscriptions, call me stubborn or the one laying in front of the bull dozer saving 1000 year old trees in rain Forrest.

I also have CS6, that's where i stopped with no regrets LOL.

For me converting to DNG makes sense, and yes the Nikon software is very handy, i also have Capture one and On one which i hardly use any of them.

The only thing i ever really use personally is Raw editor mostly for JPEGs, a little of CS6 and NIK, again be it i predominately shoot JPEG Fine.

For serious moments where RAW NEF capture is used, i often select RAW+JPEG FINE in camera, later i screen just the JPEGS, choose the money shots quickly, select the equivalent image in RAW and outsource editing and printing.

I put the files on a USB stick and deliver it to the editor then printer who then scans the image, prints on archival Hammermill 300 gsm rag paper, or foil material depending on the need, i don't use Canon or Epsom papers.

I don't need capitalization for printers, concern over colour management, their consumables, or headaches with different software all the time, i don't need editing software, updating computers, learning or updating skill sets.

I always have headache free access to the latest greatest cutting edge technology, materials, and skill sets available at a fraction of the cost of doing it all myself, also i am not capable of doing so to the level required or available.

If i add up my outlay in time and money doing things myself its much much cheaper to outsource, editing and printing even for small needs.

I do involve myself approving final proofs, for colours, removals, impact, viewer connection, creativeness.

Very Often even JPEG fine is more than good enough for editing and printing, the FILES from Nikon camera tools these days are that good, especially the D850, Z7II, Z9 and in that order.

There is no right or wrong, as long as you happy.

Only an Opinion

 

[vdj2023]

A bit late into this discussion, but I have recently been confronted with this issue. Till recently I was using a Z6 II and had no problems with working with NEF files on my Mac using either ON1 Raw or Apple Photos. I switched to LRC and got a Z8, only to find out that Apple silicon doesn’t support RAW files from a Z8. Since I am now using LRC, I first download all NEF files onto my laptop, then import them into LRC using “copy and convert to DNG”. Once copied I then copy all original NEF files to an external drive plus to the cloud. Once successfully backed up I delete the original NEF files from my laptop to save storage.
Or in short: I keep 2 copies of original NEF files (external drive plus cloud) and keep 3 copies of the converted DNG files (internal drive, external drive, cloud).

 

[MatthewK]

A bit late into this discussion, but I have recently been confronted with this issue. Till recently I was using a Z6 II and had no problems with working with NEF files on my Mac using either ON1 Raw or Apple Photos. I switched to LRC and got a Z8, only to find out that Apple silicon doesn’t support RAW files from a Z8. Since I am now using LRC, I first download all NEF files onto my laptop, then import them into LRC using “copy and convert to DNG”. Once copied I then copy all original NEF files to an external drive plus to the cloud. Once successfully backed up I delete the original NEF files from my laptop to save storage.
Or in short: I keep 2 copies of original NEF files (external drive plus cloud) and keep 3 copies of the converted DNG files (internal drive, external drive, cloud).

Apple recently added support for Z8 NEF files to MacOS

 

[bleirer]

A bit late into this discussion, but I have recently been confronted with this issue. Till recently I was using a Z6 II and had no problems with working with NEF files on my Mac using either ON1 Raw or Apple Photos. I switched to LRC and got a Z8, only to find out that Apple silicon doesn’t support RAW files from a Z8. Since I am now using LRC, I first download all NEF files onto my laptop, then import them into LRC using “copy and convert to DNG”. Once copied I then copy all original NEF files to an external drive plus to the cloud. Once successfully backed up I delete the original NEF files from my laptop to save storage.
Or in short: I keep 2 copies of original NEF files (external drive plus cloud) and keep 3 copies of the converted DNG files (internal drive, external drive, cloud).

Honestly, it is sounding like a lot of extra work to me. I like the idea of the 3-2-1 strategy, but could you keep the NEF only and use lightroom as the viewer and export jpeg or tiff for keepers to be viewed in photos?

 

[MatthewK]

Silly question here, and after reading this thread I think I know the answer but just want to confirm: if you convert a NEF to DNG, that DNG file contains all the adjustments you made to it in LR, and that DNG file can then be standalone outside of the LR catalogue, right? Whereas now, I edit in LR and everything stays in LR, but if I don't have the catalogue, then none of my edits will be visible with the NEF file outside of LR? Furthermore, if I were to import that NEF into a new LR or any other editor (aside from NX Studio), my edits will be visible?

I've just done things one way for so long (import into LR, edit, export as JPG) because I don't want to complicate what's working. I have no intention of moving from LR, but never say never.

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Silly question here, and after reading this thread I think I know the answer but just want to confirm: if you convert a NEF to DNG, that DNG file contains all the adjustments you made to it in LR, and that DNG file can then be standalone outside of the LR catalogue, right? Whereas now, I edit in LR and everything stays in LR, but if I don't have the catalogue, then none of my edits will be visible with the NEF file outside of LR? Furthermore, if I were to import that NEF into a new LR or any other editor (aside from NX Studio), my edits will be visible?

I've just done things one way for so long (import into LR, edit, export as JPG) because I don't want to complicate what's working. I have no intention of moving from LR, but never say never.

I don't believe the DNG will have the edits and I wouldn't want it to. A RAW source file should not have any of that and neither should a DNG. If it does, I wouldn't use it that way (for one, it would certainly complicate things). It's easy to test: copy the DNG to a new location (rename it to be sure) and import it fresh into LR, then see if the metadata carried along.

If you convert your RAW to DNG within LR, such as what happens when you use any of the Enhance functions (DeNoise, Super Resolution) you'll see the metadata carried along to the DNG, but that's still metadata in the Catalog—it's simply still associated with the image within LR.

NEF or DNG, if you want your LR edits to be retained outside of LR, export an XMP and keep that small file along side the RAW file.

Chris

 

[bleirer]

I believe the xmp is embedded in the dng, so any program that could read it would have the edits. But a nef could be the same with the xmp sidecar. It wouldn't be embedded but same same. It would just be a small file with the same filename but a .xmp suffix. Set lightroom to always write xmp files in preferences, or hit ctrl S to save the edits to the xmp sidecar.

 

[MatthewK]

Ok, thanks. I think I have that disabled in order to increase performance, but may have to reconsider.

 

[bleirer]

Ok, thanks. I think I have that disabled in order to increase performance, but may have to reconsider.

You don't need it as long as you back up your catalog. Some folks save to xmp only when they archive or once a year, some do it never, relying on the catalog backup.

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

You don't need it as long as you back up your catalog. Some folks save to xmp only when they archive or once a year, some do it never, relying on the catalog backup.

XMPs are also handy for some 3rd party tools. They're integral to the LRTimeLapse tool, which both reads them and writes back to them for return to LR, for instance (you can export and import XMPs in LR).

Chris

 

[Replytoken]

XMPs are also handy for some 3rd party tools. They're integral to the LRTimeLapse tool, which both reads them and writes back to them for return to LR, for instance (you can export and import XMPs in LR).

Chris

Yes, but there are not a lot of programs that can correctly read the LR data in an XMP (or DNG) file. Mostly Adobe programs have that ability, and a few like the one that you mentioned.

--Ken

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

Yes, but there are not a lot of programs that can correctly read the LR data in an XMP (or DNG) file. Mostly Adobe programs have that ability, and a few like the one that you mentioned.

--Ken

Why not? XMPs are clear-text XML files, not encrypted or proprietary in any way. It's just metadata—you can open one in any text reader.

Which apps try and fail?

Chris

 

[Replytoken]

Why not? XMPs are clear-text XML files, not encrypted or proprietary in any way. It's just metadata—you can open one in any text reader.

Which apps try and fail?

Chris

The files may be clear text, but they are instructions for LR (and other Adobe-aware products) to read and interpret. Those instructions are not written to be universally read.

--Ken

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

The files may be clear text, but they are instructions for LR (and other Adobe-aware products) to read and interpret. Those instructions are not written to be universally read.

--Ken

They actually are, or they would have used a proprietary method. The DNG standard is another Adobe construct, which they want the world to use.

The XMP files have an XML namespace declared at the top, which has the one and only purpose of describing the schema of the XML file for all to read and understand. It is a universal, world-wide standard—the could have only been one reason to use it.

Chris

 

[Replytoken]

They actually are, or they would have used a proprietary method. The DNG standard is another Adobe construct, which they want the world to use.

The XMP files have an XML namespace declared at the top, which has the one and only purpose of describing the schema of the XML file for all to read and understand. It is a universal, world-wide standard—the could have only been one reason to use it.

Chris

I understand that the file can be read by all, and I understand the history of DNG. But Adobe putting a command in the file saying something like Clarity-4, for example, is not a command/instruction set that can be read, and more importantly, interpreted, by another program to provide the user with the same results in an image. So, yes, you can have LRC write to a DNG or create a sidecar file, but it has reasonably limited value outside of the Adobe ecosystem. My posts were in answer to the following question that was asked above:

@MatthewK asked the following above -

Furthermore, if I were to import that NEF into a new LR or any other editor (aside from NX Studio), my edits will be visible?

In answer, no, NX Studio will not interpret and act upon what LRC writes into a DNG or sidecar file. It will read and display the embedded preview, thus showing the edits from LRC, but is it not going to apply them to the raw file.

--Ken

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

I understand that the file can be read by all, and I understand the history of DNG. But Adobe putting a command in the file saying something like Clarity-4, for example, is not a command/instruction set that can be read, and more importantly, interpreted, by another program to provide the user with the same results in an image.

A 3rd party app reading, modifying, and writing back those values is typically not interested in rendering the image itself with those settings, but making changes that LR will read (on XMP import) and apply to the image (when rendered or exported, etc).

If NX Studio is not designed to read XMP files, fine—I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment, which was simply:

XMPs are also handy for some 3rd party tools.

You replied directly to this statement with your counter, even though my comments were very general and had nothing to do with NX Studio. Furthermore, the fact that NX Studio is not designed or intended to read/write XMP files does not support your statement that Adobe did not intend for any 3rd party apps to utilize XMP metadata ("Those instructions are not written to be universally read.").

Chris

Edit: this should help you understand what Adobe intends XMP files for:

"Adobe’s Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) is a file labeling technology that lets you embed metadata into files themselves during the content creation process. With an XMP enabled application, your workgroup can capture meaningful information about a project (such as titles and descriptions, searchable keywords, and up-to-date author and copyright information) in a format that is easily understood by your team as well as by software applications, hardware devices, and even file formats. Best of all, as team members modify files and assets, they can edit and update the metadata in real time during the workflow."

File management, metadata integration | Adobe Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP)

Adobe’s Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) is a file labeling technology that lets you embed metadata into the files themselves, enabling more efficient job processing. Download now.

www.adobe.com

 

[Calson]

With DNG you loose Nikon specific file attributes and may as well be capturing as JPG in many respects. About 1% of my images are saved and edited and saved as 16-bit TIFF files. I gain nothing by replacing the NEF files with DNG files.

 

[Replytoken]

With DNG you loose Nikon specific file attributes and may as well be capturing as JPG in many respects. About 1% of my images are saved and edited and saved as 16-bit TIFF files. I gain nothing by replacing the NEF files with DNG files.

Correct. But in the post by @vdj2023 (who revived the thread), they were also archiving the NEF file.

--Ken

 

[Replytoken]

A 3rd party app reading, modifying, and writing back those values is typically not interested in rendering the image itself with those settings, but making changes that LR will read (on XMP import) and apply to the image (when rendered or exported, etc).

If NX Studio is not designed to read XMP files, fine—I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment, which was simply:

I was trying to answer the question that @MatthewK asked that I quoted above and wanted to provide some context for him in my answer, and that was why I mentioned that he should not expect many other programs to read LR instructions sets (notice I did not say common metadata that can be read and written to by many programs). I am sorry if you felt the comment was directed specifically to you. My intention was to provide some context in my reply.

--Ken

 

[Rodamu]

Here is an answer from PetaPixel:
Adobe created the DNG format in 2004 to offer a universal RAW format, simplifying software support for a large number of cameras. Recognizing the need for a standard, Adobe developed DNG as a publicly available RAW archival format for photographs. Adobe owns the patent on this format but allows free use as long as there is attribution given to Adobe in the source and documentation. This makes it an inviting solution for organizations and government offices that prefer to use industry standards.

DNG File: What a .dng Image Is and How to Open It

Everything you need to know about DNG files, the Digital Negative open raw file format created by Adobe for the photography industry.

petapixel.com

 

[bleirer]

Here is an answer from PetaPixel:
Adobe created the DNG format in 2004 to offer a universal RAW format, simplifying software support for a large number of cameras. Recognizing the need for a standard, Adobe developed DNG as a publicly available RAW archival format for photographs. Adobe owns the patent on this format but allows free use as long as there is attribution given to Adobe in the source and documentation. This makes it an inviting solution for organizations and government offices that prefer to use industry standards.

DNG File: What a .dng Image Is and How to Open It

Everything you need to know about DNG files, the Digital Negative open raw file format created by Adobe for the photography industry.

petapixel.com

Interesting quote from that article sums it up:

Instead of converting a camera’s photographs to DNG format, it’s easier to store files in whatever RAW format a camera supports natively. Whether that’s Canon’s CR3, Nikon’s NEF, Sony’s ARW, or some other RAW file type, this will guarantee full quality and ease with the manufacturer’s software. However, compatibility with third-party software might be better with a DNG file.