Exactly why I went for the 600 f4TC. I was shooting at 600mm+ all the time, my most used lens was the 800PF so, when I was deliberating on whether to get the 400 f2.8TC or the 600 f4TC, the longer lens was it.
Best low light Nikon telephoto lenses
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The fact of the matter is this. If I need 600mm, I will shoot 600mm regardless of what faster shorter lens I have. However, I do have three 600mm lenses to choose from, the Z180-600 f5.6-6.3, the Z600 f6.3 PF and the Z600 f4 TC and thus will choose the 600 f4 TC in low light if possible. If I need 200mm I will shoot the 70-200 f2.8. I don't think getting a 400 f2.8 TC and cropping to 600mm instead of a 600 f4 TC is not really the perfect solution, especially if you shoot at 600mm most often. In your case, the difference between the 600 f4 TC and 500 f5.6 PF is only a stop and may not be such a big difference. However, if noise is an issue, excellent noise reduction software can do wonders these days.
As Steve's excellent video points out, use the right focal length as it may be incorrect to use a shorter lens just because it is faster.
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As Steve's excellent video points out, use the right focal length as it may be incorrect to use a shorter lens just because it is faster.
The Fast Glass TRAP - Don't Make This Mistake!
Think your F/2.8 lens is always the best choice for wildlife photography? Think again. In my latest video, I’m uncovering common mistakes many photographers make when reaching for that fast glass. Wait until we get into Depth of Field and ISO - it's shocking how most photographers get this...
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I think if you have the Z 400 mm TC lens on a body and want 600 mm, you’d engage the internal TC and shoot at 560 mm, f4. Not perfect and you’d need a bit of cropping to have the 600 mm FOV, but not as much cropping as if you start from 400 mm.The fact of the matter is this. If I need 600mm, I will shoot 600mm regardless of what faster shorter lens I have. However, I do have three 600mm lenses to choose from, the Z180-600 f5.6-6.3, the Z600 f6.3 PF and the Z600 f4 TC and thus will choose the 600 f4 TC in low light if possible. If I need 200mm I will shoot the 70-200 f2.8. I don't think getting a 400 f2.8 TC and cropping to 600mm instead of a 600 f4 TC is not really the perfect solution, especially if you shoot at 600mm most often. In your case, the difference between the 600 f4 TC and 500 f5.6 PF is only a stop and may not be such a big difference. However, if noise is an issue, excellent noise reduction software can do wonders these days.
As Steve's excellent video points out, use the right focal length as it may be incorrect to use a shorter lens just because it is faster.
The Fast Glass TRAP - Don't Make This Mistake!
Think your F/2.8 lens is always the best choice for wildlife photography? Think again. In my latest video, I’m uncovering common mistakes many photographers make when reaching for that fast glass. Wait until we get into Depth of Field and ISO - it's shocking how most photographers get this...
I’m not sure there is a perfect solution, unless you can afford both the 400 TC and the 600 TC. And can get them to where you want to shoot, given your mode of travel and any weight and space restrictions. Of course it also depends on what you’re shooting.
I was in Botswana in April and May. My main lens was the 400 mm TC. I took over 2/3s of my photos with it. Somewhat more were taken at using the internal TC, so at 560 mm f4, than with the bare lens at 400 mm f2.8. (And a handful at 800 mm f5.6 with the external 2x TC.) I‘m sure the 600 mm TC would have been better than the 400 mm TC with the TC engaged. But I would have missed 400 mm f2.8 for my other shots. I had the Z 100-400 along for shorter focal lengths. But many backgrounds at 400 mm f5.6 are very different than backgrounds at 400 f2.8. One woman on the trip had both the 400 TC and 600 TC along, so it could have been done. As it turned out, she mostly used the 400 TC and the Tamron 35-150.
I have the 800 mm PF too. On a trip last month to the Great Bear Rainforest, I decided I could bring either the 400 mm TC or the 800 mm PF. We had to fly on a Dash 8 turbo prop to and from Vancouver at the beginning and end of the trip. I was not confident that I could get both lenses on board without checking one, which I did not want to do. So I took the 400 mm TC along with the two external Z TCs. That gave me 400 f2.8 and 560 mm f4 with the internal TC; 560 mm f4 with the external 1.4x TC and 784 f5.6 using the external 1.4x TC and the internal TC; and 800 mm f5.6 with the 2x TC and 1120 mm using the external 2x TC and the internal TC. All useable, especially with DxO optics modules in applied in post. 400 mm bare is the best, of course, but 560 mm (with either the internal TC or external TC) was very good. 800 mm is a bit better than 784. 1120 was useable, but not as good as the 800 mm PF plus the 1.4x TC.
It’s good we have so many excellent choices. Makes decision making difficult at time though.
Anything that is 400mm plus and is a f2.8 or f4. If you’re looking for best performing it’s going to be the big expensive primes. Sadly, there is no free lunch.
I know you are a diehard Nikon guy and likely never to leave Nikon but if you are looking for lighter optics and bodies but want a fast prime you should take a look at Sony. You can get native mount lenses that are lighter than Nikons new TC models and can find used ones saving thousands. Pair that with the smaller and lighter body and it’s a hard combo to ignore.
We are all getting older and at some point the 10lb plus combos are more of a hindrance than an advantage. Sure they have the PF glass. But that’s not the “best low light” glass.
I know you are a diehard Nikon guy and likely never to leave Nikon but if you are looking for lighter optics and bodies but want a fast prime you should take a look at Sony. You can get native mount lenses that are lighter than Nikons new TC models and can find used ones saving thousands. Pair that with the smaller and lighter body and it’s a hard combo to ignore.
We are all getting older and at some point the 10lb plus combos are more of a hindrance than an advantage. Sure they have the PF glass. But that’s not the “best low light” glass.
All of this is spot on!The fact of the matter is this. If I need 600mm, I will shoot 600mm regardless of what faster shorter lens I have. However, I do have three 600mm lenses to choose from, the Z180-600 f5.6-6.3, the Z600 f6.3 PF and the Z600 f4 TC and thus will choose the 600 f4 TC in low light if possible. If I need 200mm I will shoot the 70-200 f2.8. I don't think getting a 400 f2.8 TC and cropping to 600mm instead of a 600 f4 TC is not really the perfect solution, especially if you shoot at 600mm most often. In your case, the difference between the 600 f4 TC and 500 f5.6 PF is only a stop and may not be such a big difference. However, if noise is an issue, excellent noise reduction software can do wonders these days.
As Steve's excellent video points out, use the right focal length as it may be incorrect to use a shorter lens just because it is faster.
The Fast Glass TRAP - Don't Make This Mistake!
Think your F/2.8 lens is always the best choice for wildlife photography? Think again. In my latest video, I’m uncovering common mistakes many photographers make when reaching for that fast glass. Wait until we get into Depth of Field and ISO - it's shocking how most photographers get this...
What I was getting at was that say using a 400 f2.8 with the f2.8 benefit was lost due to cropping and linked Steve's excellent video to show why.
O
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Makes sense...........
If you want optimal reach you choose a lens to give you reach.
If you need more optimal light you choose a lens that gives you more light.
If you need soft back grounds you choose the optimal aperture setting if possible, or lens, or use a longer than needed lens shoot closer and rely on the compression factor to enhance the back ground.
For me F2.8 at 300mm does pretty much what F4 does at 600mm, if anything the 600 F4 prime may be just a little narrower in DOF, depending on the subject and distance and angle, you may in cases get the eyes and miss the ears or even the nose of say a bear or dog.
MTF charts are handy to look at.
I can get a great soft back ground at 500mm using a 150-500 Sigma, 200-500 300 F2.8, 400 F2.8 600F4 in many cases, its the focal range the subject position and lens compression that seems to add to the magic even using F8.
There all just tools, sometimes you have to be creative, doing what’s necessary at the time, like a 1.4TC III on a 200-500 at F10 in the golden hour shining on the face of a wave nailing the surfer beautifully, why, because the 600 F4 wasn't with me. As the tide came in and the light fell off a little more the 300 2.8 VR II with the 1.4 TC III at F4 worked.
So the right tools at the right time used in the right way is ideal, but sometimes you need to be a little risky or silly to get the job done.
Only an opinion
If you want optimal reach you choose a lens to give you reach.
If you need more optimal light you choose a lens that gives you more light.
If you need soft back grounds you choose the optimal aperture setting if possible, or lens, or use a longer than needed lens shoot closer and rely on the compression factor to enhance the back ground.
For me F2.8 at 300mm does pretty much what F4 does at 600mm, if anything the 600 F4 prime may be just a little narrower in DOF, depending on the subject and distance and angle, you may in cases get the eyes and miss the ears or even the nose of say a bear or dog.
MTF charts are handy to look at.
I can get a great soft back ground at 500mm using a 150-500 Sigma, 200-500 300 F2.8, 400 F2.8 600F4 in many cases, its the focal range the subject position and lens compression that seems to add to the magic even using F8.
There all just tools, sometimes you have to be creative, doing what’s necessary at the time, like a 1.4TC III on a 200-500 at F10 in the golden hour shining on the face of a wave nailing the surfer beautifully, why, because the 600 F4 wasn't with me. As the tide came in and the light fell off a little more the 300 2.8 VR II with the 1.4 TC III at F4 worked.
So the right tools at the right time used in the right way is ideal, but sometimes you need to be a little risky or silly to get the job done.
Only an opinion
Definitely my 400 TC
I also own the Z 600 f4 TC, the Z 600 f6.3 PF and the Z 180-600 f5.6-6.3The fact of the matter is this. If I need 600mm, I will shoot 600mm regardless of what faster shorter lens I have. However, I do have three 600mm lenses to choose from, the Z180-600 f5.6-6.3, the Z600 f6.3 PF and the Z600 f4 TC and thus will choose the 600 f4 TC in low light if possible. If I need 200mm I will shoot the 70-200 f2.8. I don't think getting a 400 f2.8 TC and cropping to 600mm instead of a 600 f4 TC is not really the perfect solution, especially if you shoot at 600mm most often. In your case, the difference between the 600 f4 TC and 500 f5.6 PF is only a stop and may not be such a big difference. However, if noise is an issue, excellent noise reduction software can do wonders these days.
As Steve's excellent video points out, use the right focal length as it may be incorrect to use a shorter lens just because it is faster.
The Fast Glass TRAP - Don't Make This Mistake!
Think your F/2.8 lens is always the best choice for wildlife photography? Think again. In my latest video, I’m uncovering common mistakes many photographers make when reaching for that fast glass. Wait until we get into Depth of Field and ISO - it's shocking how most photographers get this...
The 600 TC is a great lens due to it's low f stop and especially due to the built in 1.4X TC allowing me to quickly zoom in even further on the subject. But its disadvantage is it's large size and weight which make it more difficult to carry by air travel, more difficult to carry in the field if significant hiking is involved and more limiting on mobility when I have to move to get the best shot. I generally need to use a tripod or monopod for this lens. With the other lenses I can hand hold and move quickly to find the best position for the shot.
I'll soon be taking a trip to California for birds with much of the shooting done from blinds. The 600 TC will be perfect for this (along with the 100-400 when a larger bird comes in and the 600mm is too much lens).
The 600 f6.3 PF is perfect when I need the mobility. With noise reduction software I can live with the slower lens, even in low light.
Tne 180-600 is great when I need the versatility of having a zoom. On a recent trip to Botswana, this was my most used lens for shooting larger mammals alternating with smaller birds. On that trip I also used the 600 f6.3 PF. I did not take the large 600 f4 TC because of the weight and size restrictions of luggage on the multiple large plane and small plane flights we had to take.
Agree with all you say. However, even though I am getting older (almost 64), I can still handhold the 600TC quite well. Ask me in 5 years and I may have a different story!
Just a young whippersnapperAgree with all you say. However, even though I am getting older (almost 64), I can still handhold the 600TC quite well. Ask me in 5 years and I may have a different story!
I am 76 and I lift weights 3 times a week for a reason. So maybe make that 5 years 15 years Z800 f/6.3 on Z9 is no problem for me to hand hold and I used to hand hold a D6 and 600 f/4E heavy and long , until the Z800 came along 5-1-2022.
Z800 f/3.6 5.6 x 15.2" 5.25 lbs
Z400 f/2.8TC 6.2 x 15 6.5 lbs
Z600 f/4TC 6.5 x 17.3" 7.19 lbs
600 f/4E 6.5 x17" 8.4 lbs.
So looks like the 600TC could be hand holdable even for me.
The Z400 f/2.8 TC only 2.3" shorter and .69 lbs lighter than the Z600TC. I would probably have the 400 f/2.8 TC engaged all the time so f/4, and no advantage in low light, and it would still be less focal length than what I usually need.
600 TC might be the best NPS loaner to get.
For sliming down my lens inventory If the 600 TC felt right I "could" sell off the Z600 and Z800 f/6.3 since the one lens would cover both ranges. I would still have the Tamron 150-500 for a lighter shorter focal length close range or big flock lens.
In reading many people's responses, there's a common theme - love for the big primes (e.g. 600 f4 TC) but in many (most?) situations they're just too damn heavy and cumbersome to whip out or tote. 600PF and 180-600 to the rescue! For those of us mere mortals who can't (or choose not to) afford having one of each (800, 400, 600 TC, 600 PF, 180-600, etc.), I would think perhaps either or both of the latter lenses might be smart choices. I'll be the first to admit being obsessive enough to want it all (tack sharp IQ, beautiful bokeh, etc.), but as an amateur I have to be realistic in my expectations, and "settle" for just pretty damn good, considering the limitations of my equipment.
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I hope I can still manage the 600TC at 76. Whatever the case, you are doing well at 76.Just a young whippersnapper
Z800 f/6.3 on Z9 is no problem for me to hand hold and I used to hand hold a D6 and 600 f/4E heavy and long , until the Z800 came along 5-1-2022.
Z800 f/3.6 5.6 x 15.2" 5.25 lbs
Z400 f/2.8TC 6.2 x 15 6.5 lbs
Z600 f/4TC 6.5 x 17.3" 7.19 lbs
600 f/4E 6.5 x17" 8.4 lbs.
So looks like the 600TC could be hand holdable even for me.
The Z400 f/2.8 TC only 2.3" shorter and .69 lbs lighter than the Z600TC. I would probably have the 400 f/2.8 TC engaged all the time so f/4, and no advantage in low light, and it would still be less focal length than what I usually need.
600 TC might be the best NPS loaner to get.
For sliming down my lens inventory If the 600 TC felt right I "could" sell off the Z600 and Z800 f/6.3 since the one lens would cover both ranges. I would still have the Tamron 150-500 for a lighter shorter focal length close range or big flock lens.
With my job (the company I own), I am regularly lifting weight so, that keeps me going as far as I am working but I don't know how long I want or need to work. The fact that it helps with my fitness for lens use may keep me working longer. As you point out, if you are going to use the 400 f2.8TC with the TC always engaged, then it is probably the wrong lens, unless you have specific uses for the 400f2.8 @ 400 f2.8. I did find this with my 400 f2.8E FL VR on a FF camera, the 1.4x TCIII was almost always used and was looking for longer as well - the 2x TCIII actually worked brilliantly. When I had the D500 (as well as the D850) the 400 f2.8E FL VR was only used half the time on that camera with the 1.4x TCIII on a D500 that is an "equivalent" 840mm focal length. So, now I only have FF Z cameras, and I realized when the Z800PF came along, it would get well used and it did. However, I also realized that I sometimes needed a shorter lens and thus when the opportunity arose for me to get the 600TC due to a deal going for trade-ins on my 400f2.8E FL VR and Z800TC, I thought it would be the perfect lens for my use and so far it is.
The 800PF is a real lightweight and I never had issue using that lens handheld all day. The 600TC is a little more challenging but I still walk with it and use it all the time handheld. If you can loan out the 600TC I would definitely do that to make sure you can use it for long periods. If you can keep the 600PF, I would simply because you may want a lightweight lens sometimes and the 1.4x TC works superbly with it. I don't miss my 800PF even if I didn't have the 600TC as the 600PF works so well with the 1.4x TC.
If you do not want to fork out the big$ on the Z400TC or Z600TC, then the Z600PF and add the 1.4x TC when required, is a great option. It is only in really low light that high ISO may be an issue, but the modern noise programs like Topaz work really well. In fact, I never really used the Z800PF much after I got the Z600PF and used the TC if required as it meant I had 600mm and 840mm in one lightweight lens - instead of carrying a very bulky Z800PF as well as the Z600PF.
I was not going to get a 400TC or 600TC as I could not really justify the cost - my 400 f2.8E FL VR cost me new half the price of what the 400TC is now! However, I special deal came up at a local B&M store whereby I could trade two lenses in and get double their normal trade-in value and this got me thinking I could get one of these exotic tele's with a few extra $ thrown in. I traded the 400 f2.8E FL VR and Z800PF in on the Z600TC as it would replace both lenses - I rarely used the 400 f2.8E FL VR these days simply because of the weight and to a lesser degree bulk. Otherwise, I would have been happy to stick with the Z600PF and Z800PF and sometimes use the 1.4x TC on the Z600PF when I couldn't be bothered taking both 600 & 800 lenses out.
Yes NPS has long loaner times.I hope I can still manage the 600TC at 76. Whatever the case, you are doing well at 76.
As you point out, if you are going to use the 400 f2.8TC with the TC always engaged, then it is probably the wrong lens, unless you have specific uses for the 400f2.8 @ 400 f2.8. I did find this with my 400 f2.8E FL VR on a FF camera, the 1.4x TCIII was almost always used and was looking for longer as well - the 2x TCIII actually worked brilliantly. When I had the D500 (as well as the D850) the 400 f2.8E FL VR was only used half the time on that camera with the 1.4x TCIII on a D500 that is an "equivalent" 840mm focal length. So, now I only have FF Z cameras, and I realized when the Z800PF came along, it would get well used and it did. However, I also realized that I sometimes needed a shorter lens and thus when the opportunity arose for me to get the 600TC due to a deal going for trade-ins on my 400f2.8E FL VR and Z800TC, I thought it would be the perfect lens for my use and so far it is.
The 800PF is a real lightweight and I never had issue using that lens handheld all day. The 600TC is a little more challenging but I still walk with it and use it all the time handheld. If you can loan out the 600TC I would definitely do that to make sure you can use it for long periods. If you can keep the 600PF, I would simply because you may want a lightweight lens sometimes and the 1.4x TC works superbly with it. I don't miss my 800PF even if I didn't have the 600TC as the 600PF works so well with the 1.4x TC.
I bought the 180-600 for daytime birding flexibility but when I sold all my F-mount gear I kept my F4 500 G series lens and the FTZ adaptor so that I would still have a good low light telephoto. I also kept the TC 1.4 II for F-mount. Recently I have been noticing several 600 F4 Fmount lenses showing up second hand. A good one of those might also be a good the way to go, if you have a decent tripod and gimbal already.
I have used the Z mount 800 on the Z9 on loan for a day. It was surprisingly easy to hand hold.
I have used the Z mount 800 on the Z9 on loan for a day. It was surprisingly easy to hand hold.
I think you will…despite being a runner daily from 96-12 with 3:20 marathons and 40 minute 10Ks…and doing about 2000 miles a year on the bike since I stopped running in 12 dueto broken foot…my tolerance for hiking distance and handholding heavy lenses went down a bunch from 65 in 2019 to 70 now. I firmly believe is a state of mind and has nothing to do with years…but my darned body isn’t holding up its end.Agree with all you say. However, even though I am getting older (almost 64), I can still handhold the 600TC quite well. Ask me in 5 years and I may have a different story!
I just submitted my loan request to Nikon Professional Services for the Z600 f/4 TC. It is a 2 week loan and I have to pay the shipping both ways but a lot cheaper than renting one for 2 weeks.I hope I can still manage the 600TC at 76. Whatever the case, you are doing well at 76.
As you point out, if you are going to use the 400 f2.8TC with the TC always engaged, then it is probably the wrong lens, unless you have specific uses for the 400f2.8 @ 400 f2.8. I did find this with my 400 f2.8E FL VR on a FF camera, the 1.4x TCIII was almost always used and was looking for longer as well - the 2x TCIII actually worked brilliantly. When I had the D500 (as well as the D850) the 400 f2.8E FL VR was only used half the time on that camera with the 1.4x TCIII on a D500 that is an "equivalent" 840mm focal length. So, now I only have FF Z cameras, and I realized when the Z800PF came along, it would get well used and it did. However, I also realized that I sometimes needed a shorter lens and thus when the opportunity arose for me to get the 600TC due to a deal going for trade-ins on my 400f2.8E FL VR and Z800TC, I thought it would be the perfect lens for my use and so far it is.
The 800PF is a real lightweight and I never had issue using that lens handheld all day. The 600TC is a little more challenging but I still walk with it and use it all the time handheld. If you can loan out the 600TC I would definitely do that to make sure you can use it for long periods. If you can keep the 600PF, I would simply because you may want a lightweight lens sometimes and the 1.4x TC works superbly with it. I don't miss my 800PF even if I didn't have the 600TC as the 600PF works so well with the 1.4x TC.