Brad Hill - Nikon Z DX flagship?

[fcotterill]

I agree with image quality penalties of a DX sensor, at higher ISOs particularly.

Nevertheless, affordability of a FX compared to a DX camera is a big factor for many photographers.

However unlike DSLRs, mirrorless cameras require a stacked sensor to cope with high frame rates, minimize evf blackout, and in action situations there is are the challenges of driving the increasingly complex AF systems.
Stacked sensors have extra long R&D inputs with more complicated production. Higher chip yields/wafer should drive down unit costs and Nikon could use Z9 code etc in a Z90 aka Z900.

Natural Art Images: Voice: Brad Hill Blog

The Blog of Brad Hill, wildlife photographer. Cameras, lenses, camera gear, field tests, conservation, photo tours, and other bits of questionable wisdom from a young-at-heart nature photographer!

www.naturalart.ca

 

[sid_19911991]

I would like a D500 equivalent in Z mirrorless with the following features.

Nikon can call it Z500.

1) 21 MP BSI crop sensor (mirrorless)
2) No AA filter like D850/D500.

3) 12 FPS mechanical shutter @ 14-bit raw without battery grip.
4) Blackout free or virtually blackout free shooting like in Canon R6.

5) AF stills performance/bird eye tracking/ at the least 80% that of Canon R6.
6) 4k @ 30 FPS & 1080p @ 120 FPS; should have improved video AF.
7) 10 bit 4.2.2 internal 4k @30 FPS recording & 1080p @ 120 FPS.

8) Slightly better Dynamic Range than D500.
9) Slightly better ISO performance than D500.

10) Dual Card slots.
11) Price it under 2,000 USD for body & FTZ adapter with high speed memory card.
12) Raw stills buffer as good as D500.
13) Simple 3.6M dot pixel EVF; same as Nikon Z6 to keep costs low.
14) Decent in-body stabilization like in Nikon Z6.
15) Latest chip to provide room for AF firmware/AI updates.
-----
16) The usual Nikon color science, build quality, ergonomics, lack of heating issues, battery performance etc.

 

[thelordofthelight]

I don't even want a stacked sensor..just give me a refined BSI sensor, like in the Z7II. Canon showed with their R5/R6 that stacked sensor is not a must for better AF/EVF performance...Of course, the R5/6 may not be as fluid as a Canon R3, Sony A9/A1 when it comes to AF/EVF but i think that's a fair compromise considering the price difference. When Nikon announced the Z7II, I was interested in 1.) a robust AF. Not the eye af, auto tracking etc but an AF module as robust as the D500/850, 2.) Better EVF implementation in CH+, like on the Canon R5 or Sony A7R4 at least 3.) AF-ON+AF Area mode assignment using custom controls....As much as i would love to have the Z9 that competes with the Sony A1, i may end up buying it only because i'd have no other choice..my preference would still be a true D850 equivalent as i'd like investing more on the glass.

I agree with image quality penalties of a DX sensor, at higher ISOs particularly.

Nevertheless, affordability of a FX compared to a DX camera is a big factor for many photographers.

However unlike DSLRs, mirrorless cameras require a stacked sensor to cope with high frame rates, minimize evf blackout, and in action situations there is are the challenges of driving the increasingly complex AF systems.
Stacked sensors have extra long R&D inputs with more complicated production. Higher chip yields/wafer should drive down unit costs and Nikon could use Z9 code etc in a Z90 aka Z900.

Natural Art Images: Voice: Brad Hill Blog

The Blog of Brad Hill, wildlife photographer. Cameras, lenses, camera gear, field tests, conservation, photo tours, and other bits of questionable wisdom from a young-at-heart nature photographer!

www.naturalart.ca

 

[fcotterill]

Low light performance of the Z9 is the bigger unknown among all the others. Nikon is very unlikely to launch a flagship FX camera aimed primarily at action genres, which cannot perform very well in low light. The D5 sensor sets the minimum acceptable standard.

The 45mp sensor in the Z9 is based on leaks from field testing Italy of prototypes reported here earlier this year, and also on NR. This spec has become widely assumed as set in stone, contrary to any firm evidence. The bigger question relates to how Nikon has upgraded the lowlight performance (ie less noise) of a 45mp sensor.... Interesting Questions arise in light of the minimum standard for a D5/D6 lowlight IQ ?

Given experience with the 45mp D850 compared to the 20mp D500, the D850 has the edge in lower sensor noise and greater all round versatility. The pluses of larger AF sensor in the D500 and crop factor are reduced if we consider MILC analogues of a 45mp FX vs 20mp DX pairing. However, a 26mp DX will be an advantage IF it is in a DX Pro Zed camera at significantly lower RRP.

 

[fcotterill]

I stand to be corrected but the Canon on-sensor Autofocus has a fundamental advantage in its cross type pixels.
Nikon may develop their own version or have decided stacked sensors are the future of their new Pro AF system.

I don't even want a stacked sensor..just give me a refined BSI sensor, like in the Z7II. Canon showed with their R5/R6 that stacked sensor is not a must for better AF/EVF performance...Of course, the R5/6 may not be as fluid as a Canon R3, Sony A9/A1 when it comes to AF/EVF but i think that's a fair compromise considering the price difference. When Nikon announced the Z7II, I was interested in 1.) a robust AF. Not the eye af, auto tracking etc but an AF module as robust as the D500/850, 2.) Better EVF implementation in CH+, like on the Canon R5 or Sony A7R4 at least 3.) AF-ON+AF Area mode assignment using custom controls....As much as i would love to have the Z9 that competes with the Sony A1, i may end up buying it only because i'd have no other choice..my preference would still be a true D850 equivalent as i'd like investing more on the glass.

 

[eaj101]

There's an interesting assumption Brad Hill is making here, which is that the 45mp Z9 would necessarily have poorer low light performance than a possible 24mp Z9. It's possible that particular assumption may no longer be accurate in sensor design.

Honestly, I don't care much about what Nikon does with the Z9 since I won't buy one anyway. ($$$) Trickle down of Z9 features would be far more interesting to me. If the Z9 EVF has characteristics of the R3 EVF I'm reading about, which is essentially builtin HDR that makes it look like an OVF, that would be interesting. Contrary to a lot of people, I still prefer the OVF experience as a viewfinder, though I do like the in-viewfinder display information.

I'd the the AF to be more predictable, but again unlike others I don't care about high speed automatic tracking of tiny birds and find the current D850 AF 99% adequate for wildlife and action.

And I am getting REALLY tired of the internet-inspired 'Nikon's Sky Is Falling!' This is getting to be like the cable news cycle applied to photography, in which every question must be asked, speculated upon, and answered in the next 5 minutes or the subject is a catastrophe. I'm hoping this announcement isn't turned into another internet firing squad regardless of what's announced.

 

[RichF]

I don't understand the difference between BSI and a stacked sensor. Is there a good review of different sensor types and the pluses/minuses of each?

 

[RichF]

To those who want a crop sensor.

1. What crop? Is there a good reason to stick to the 1.5 crop. Canon for years had a 1.3 crop? What is best? Fixed crop or variable?

2. what about a high density fx sensor (Z7/Z9) which can be cropped to a reasonable resolution? that would save on R&D, simplify manufacturing and supply chain though might cost a bit more than true DX camera.

 

[Craig42]

I don't understand the difference between BSI and a stacked sensor. Is there a good review of different sensor types and the pluses/minuses of each?

Here's an article I found:

Why the speed of Stacked CMOS is key to Nikon's pro mirrorless camera

Nikon says its professional mirrorless camera will use a Stacked CMOS sensor. We look at why this one statement holds so much promise for the camera's performance.

www.dpreview.com

 

[fcotterill]

I don't understand the difference between BSI and a stacked sensor. Is there a good review of different sensor types and the pluses/minuses of each?

Here are two giving a synopsis of the primary differences and implications ....

Why the speed of Stacked CMOS is key to Nikon's pro mirrorless camera

Nikon says its professional mirrorless camera will use a Stacked CMOS sensor. We look at why this one statement holds so much promise for the camera's performance.

www.dpreview.com

Stacked CMOS image sensor from Sony improves on conventional back-illuminated designs

Tokyo, Japan--A new stacked CMOS architecture that layers pixels and circuits has been developed by Sony for improved performance and smaller size.

www.laserfocusworld.com

 

[DavidT]

I think we are coming to a point that you don't need a DX body anymore. The D850 is one of the very first cameras that showed you could buy one camera to do both. Sony has the a1 and a7R4 that also do the same thing. You can get 50 or 61 MP and in crop mode you are 21 or 24 MP. A D850 in crop mode is essentially what you have in a D500. As sensors handle higher MP and ISO better the days of low MP sensors out performing or the need to have two cameras to do different things is becoming obsolete. With limited chips, production and R&D money it makes more sense for manufactures to invest in FF and provide good crop mode built in. Kind of the best of both worlds.

 

[fcotterill]

Even though the D850 does indeed overlap the D500 at ~20mp, but there are the other well known advantages of AF etc already mentioned
Affordability is still the Primary rationale for crop sensors.

 

[DavidT]

Even though the D850 does indeed overlap the D500 at ~20mp, but there are the other well known advantages of AF etc already mentioned
Affordability is still the Primary rationale for crop sensors.

But as we transition to a world of mirrorless cameras the AF advantages go away. I don't know of any advantage a crop sensor has in a mirrorless camera other than possibly price.

 

[eaj101]

Crop sensor lenses can be smaller, lighter, and more compact than lenses for full frame cameras. Fuji's built an excellent product line on that premise (while doing 'medium format' for those who want higher resolutions, an interesting product strategy.). Olympus/Panasonic have taken it a step further, with very light and compact lenses, and smartphones take it even further.

 

[Craig42]

I will be very surprised if Nikon ever does another "DX flagship".

 

[DavidT]

I will be very surprised if Nikon ever does another "DX flagship".

I agree

 

[abc123brian]

But as we transition to a world of mirrorless cameras the AF advantages go away. I don't know of any advantage a crop sensor has in a mirrorless camera other than possibly price.

I agree that we don’t have a need for a crop sensor anymore other than price. The EVF allows you to see the cropped image the same as you would the full frame image. Price can be a huge factor though. If you take the Z6 and the Z7, they are identical except for the sensor and there is a $1000 price difference due only to MP difference. It might be safe to say a cropped sensor could drop the price significantly. This isn’t to say Nikon will or should do it. I don’t believe they will.

I’d rather see either a lower resolution high performance model or a higher resolution, not quite Z9 level camera priced in the $4-5K range.

 

[RichF]

Crop sensor lenses can be smaller, lighter, and more compact than lenses for full frame cameras. Fuji's built an excellent product line on that premise (while doing 'medium format' for those who want higher resolutions, an interesting product strategy.). Olympus/Panasonic have taken it a step further, with very light and compact lenses, and smartphones take it even further.

If you want an entire collection of cameras and lenses that are cropped you can save $ and weight. However if you shoot both, chances are that you will double pay for some lenses just adding to the cost of your camera collection

 

[RichF]

I agree that we don’t have a need for a crop sensor anymore other than price.

And weight.

 

[DavidT]

I don't own a DX body but it appears to me most folks on here use them for telephoto reach with FF lenses. I don't hear much of people using them with native DX lenses so weight really isn't much of a savings at that point.

 

[RichF]

Here are two giving a synopsis of the primary differences and implications ....

Why the speed of Stacked CMOS is key to Nikon's pro mirrorless camera

Nikon says its professional mirrorless camera will use a Stacked CMOS sensor. We look at why this one statement holds so much promise for the camera's performance.

www.dpreview.com

Stacked CMOS image sensor from Sony improves on conventional back-illuminated designs

Tokyo, Japan--A new stacked CMOS architecture that layers pixels and circuits has been developed by Sony for improved performance and smaller size.

www.laserfocusworld.com

Thanks

 

[RichF]

I don't own a DX body but it appears to me most folks on here use them for telephoto reach with FF lenses. I don't hear much of people using them with native DX lenses so weight really isn't much of a savings at that point.

then cropping seems like the best idea to me

 

[eaj101]

I don't own a DX body but it appears to me most folks on here use them for telephoto reach with FF lenses. I don't hear much of people using them with native DX lenses so weight really isn't much of a savings at that point.

Within the world of wildlife and bird photographers that's probably true. But those for whom a DX body is their only/primary camera probably do so for reasons like cost/weight/size etc. (after all, Sony made weight/size the primary selling point for their cameras for years). For travel use for example, crop sensors are pretty common. (the Z50+kit lenses is a lot of performance in a small package).

Nikon in particular hasn't done well by DX lens sets, nor has Canon done much better from what I've seen. Sony actually has done pretty well and the crop sensor a6500 was one of my favorite cameras for a while (but the kit 'Zeiss' 16-70 was terrible). The Fuji users I've talked to love the size/weight savings and say nothing about reach advantages. Olympus/Panasonic users even more so.

I doubt crop sensor cameras are dead. Nikon may succeed in killing theirs :(

 

[abc123brian]

Within the world of wildlife and bird photographers that's probably true. But those for whom a DX body is their only/primary camera probably do so for reasons like cost/weight/size etc. (after all, Sony made weight/size the primary selling point for their cameras for years). For travel use for example, crop sensors are pretty common. (the Z50+kit lenses is a lot of performance in a small package).

Nikon in particular hasn't done well by DX lens sets, nor has Canon done much better from what I've seen. Sony actually has done pretty well and the crop sensor a6500 was one of my favorite cameras for a while (but the kit 'Zeiss' 16-70 was terrible). The Fuji users I've talked to love the size/weight savings and say nothing about reach advantages. Olympus/Panasonic users even more so.

I doubt crop sensor cameras are dead. Nikon may succeed in killing theirs :(

The problem ends up being that the size/weight argument starts to disappear with higher quality glass and equivalents.

this is the Fuji 16-55mm f/2.8 next to the Z 24-70mm F4. Not only is the Nikon smaller, it’s lighter.

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this is a Z6 next to the X-H1.

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[Hermann]

But those for whom a DX body is their only/primary camera probably do so for reasons like cost/weight/size etc. [...] For travel use for example, crop sensors are pretty common. (the Z50+kit lenses is a lot of performance in a small package).

Agreed. Size and weight matter in many situations, for instance on long hikes in the mountains. I often carry quite a lot of other gear, not just my camera, and in such situations every ounce saved makes a difference.

I doubt crop sensor cameras are dead. Nikon may succeed in killing theirs :(

I hope Nikon will make at least one decent crop sensor body. A mirrorless body with the capabilities of the D500 or even the D7500 would be very nice.

Hermann