Direct comparison 800mm f6.3 vs 600mm f4 FL

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An awful lot of recommendations for tripods, light, MTF charts, etc. etc. Those are all great to evaluate a piece of kit under controlled conditions. The question I always ask myself is this: Does the lens offer the performance I need in my typical shooting conditions? If the answer is yes, great! If the answer is no, then the rest is irrelevant.
 
Does the lens offer the performance I need in my typical shooting conditions? If the answer is yes, great! If the answer is no, then the rest is irrelevant.

If you don't have a baseline of how good a lens is, how do you know if a lens is not suited for your typical shooting conditions or it is straight up bad/defective ?

What the OP obstinately refuses to do is establish that baseline...
 
Just a thought...
You do not need to crop your images to make them "fit" the forum. You can just resize them to the forum image size.
If you do that you can show both full frame and your crop.

Regards
Daniel
Hmm, yeah, I've convinced myself it is too cumbersome. In Studio NX, I need to change the size as saved, but I actually use TIFF16, not JPEG normally, so all this changes the default for future use that I then forget to revert. Poor excuse I know but thanks for this suggestion.
 
Well, to be fair the only reason I cropped is to get the files be accepted by this forum! My files are normally much bigger in size. This admittedly skews you opinion as you cannot appreciate (sometimes) nice environment.

It was overcast today for the most part, beating the weatherman. Having said that, I'm preparing for a trip to Scotland and overcast is what I'm going to get in spades.

The best way around this is to post on Flickr and then link the page. Or put up a file sharing for the raw file so people can play around with it.
 
If you don't have a baseline of how good a lens is, how do you know if a lens is not suited for your typical shooting conditions or it is straight up bad/defective ?

What the OP obstinately refuses to do is establish that baseline...
Let me try to explain why I would do it but I feel it is not a priority. The first copy was faulty, let's just trust the Nikon staff member saying that. What are the odds for the second one to be faulty? Close to zero in my book.

What this means is that I just need to know--in most typical photography scenarios I'm interested short- to mid-term:

1. Is there anything I can do with a big 600mm f4 that I cannot do with this 800mm f6.3 lens.
2. Is there anything I can do with this 800mm f6.3 that I could not do with a 600mm f4.
 
Heavily overcast weather and shooting upwards as well as cropping are not ideal for developing appreciation of a lens, I agree with others. I have seen such good images from this lens that it's hard to know if this is optimal performance given the difficult circumstances.

The shot that has me puzzled though, is the pheasant shot. I would expect a much sharper, much more detailed shot from an 800mm prime. I know that the Sony 600GM would be far more detailed even at large distance and in overcast wheather, and even when cropping to show a 100% image.
Either the focus was off, or there was another cause of blur it seems to me. How distant was the pheasant and how much of a crop is it that you posted?

I have to say though, that the Sony shoots at f4 wide open, is wickedly accurate at distance, and I am not familiar with the focus accuracy in low contrast light of the f6.3 800PF.
 
Heavily overcast weather and shooting upwards as well as cropping are not ideal for developing appreciation of a lens, I agree with others. I have seen such good images from this lens that it's hard to know if this is optimal performance given the difficult circumstances.

The shot that has me puzzled though, is the pheasant shot. I would expect a much sharper, much more detailed shot from an 800mm prime. I know that the Sony 600GM would be far more detailed even at large distance and in overcast wheather, and even when cropping to show a 100% image.
Either the focus was off, or there was another cause of blur it seems to me. How distant was the pheasant and how much of a crop is it that you posted?

I have to say though, that the Sony shoots at f4 wide open, is wickedly accurate at distance, and I am not familiar with the focus accuracy in low contrast light of the f6.3 800PF.
DX shot with horizontal dimension of 5532 was turned into 3577 for the pheasant crop. I would estimate the distance as no more than 30 m. The focus box was small but displaced a little bit down from the eye so that the eye ended up on the upper edge of the box.

My feeling so far is I am not confident in the long-range performance but with suitable tweaks to how I operate it, I could make the short distances/small birds work very well.

And funny you should mention Sony, I was and am still considering jumping ship, even just adding the A1 with a 200-600 as an extra combo would be a blast I feel.
 
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DX shot with horizontal dimension of 5532 was turned into 3577 for the pheasant crop. I would estimate the distance as no more than 30 m.
At 3577 pixels and the pheasant at only 30m, that shot should be wáy sharper. To be clear: I don't use Nikon at the moment, I transitioned from the D500 to the Sony A1, but intend to add a Z8. So I can only reason from my own frame of reference, but the pheasant at 30m would be pin sharp in even, overcast light without any thermal activity, with the 600/4.

As awkward as it may sound, I feel you would have to check whether your camera is having an issue of some sorts if the 800PF is an optimal copy. There simply isn't an explanation nor an excuse for the blur in that shot. Nikon's VR is superior to my Sony 600's OS.
 
At 3577 pixels and the pheasant at only 30m, that shot should be wáy sharper. To be clear: I don't use Nikon at the moment, I transitioned from the D500 to the Sony A1, but intend to add a Z8. So I can only reason from my own frame of reference, but the pheasant at 30m would be pin sharp in even, overcast light without any thermal activity, with the 600/4.

As awkward as it may sound, I feel you would have to check whether your camera is having an issue of some sorts if the 800PF is an optimal copy. There simply isn't an explanation nor an excuse for the blur in that shot. Nikon's VR is superior to my Sony 600's OS.
Thanks, this is something to puzzle out for sure with a cool head. Late time for me 22:44 in the UK so I'll say goodnight for now. Thanks again!
 
It was overcast today for the most part, beating the weatherman. Having said that, I'm preparing for a trip to Scotland and overcast is what I'm going to get in spades.
Overcast per se isn't a problem, in fact I prefer overcast light. The problem arises when the overcast sky is a substantial part of the background as it is when the bird is high in the tree, which also means the light on the side of the bird facing the camera is much dimmer. It is a rare lens that can control flare and internal reflections well enough in this situation to not affect the colors and detail on the bird. If you cannot find a way to get on the same level as the bird (to get a background that isn't so bright) this may be the best you can hope for particularly when cropping.
 
Overcast per se isn't a problem, in fact I prefer overcast light. The problem arises when the overcast sky is a substantial part of the background as it is when the bird is high in the tree, which also means the light on the side of the bird facing the camera is much dimmer. It is a rare lens that can control flare and internal reflections well enough in this situation to not affect the colors and detail on the bird. If you cannot find a way to get on the same level as the bird (to get a background that isn't so bright) this may be the best you can hope for particularly when cropping.
My point precisely and this results in the subject being relatively underexposed without proper compensation. Moreover, the resultant image against a bright, overcast background will likely be less than satisfying. Shooting in these conditions not only challenges the lens but the sensor as well.
 
I have reached my decision and will be keeping the lens.

1. It is more portable, cabin baggage, carrying, handling.
2. At this point, I/we cannot see any obvious defect, and if one is found, I have return rights for a time, plus warranty.
3. It is a mirrorless lens with no adapter required and safer connection to the body.
4. It has its limits, all tech does.
5. My skills need improving and I need to pay a bit less attention to finding subjects, crawling through bushes (these two need to stay, they are very important in my neck of the woods), and focusing, but also concern myself more with lighting.

Still a question though, a poster above suggested the pheasant was too soft (and the background is not sky but grass), but the last two posters focused on overcast skies. What is the opinion of the last two posters and generally on the pheasant? Also, the blackcap in the thickets was taken with 600mm f4, what are your thoughts on that? By the way, all song birds shots were done under pressure. The blackcap was come and gone completely in 30 seconds, the woodpecker, maybe in 20 seconds, never to come back dutring the day.
 
Still a question though, a poster above suggested the pheasant was too soft (and the background is not sky but grass), but the last two posters focused on overcast skies. What is the opinion of the last two posters and generally on the pheasant? Also, the blackcap in the thickets was taken with 600mm f4, what are your thoughts on that? By the way, all song birds shots were done under pressure. The blackcap was come and gone completely in 30 seconds, the woodpecker, maybe in 20 seconds, never to come back dutring the day.

How much processing and cropping was done on the pheasant or blackcap is a big unknown, but they do seem to have more detail. BTW being in North America I'll have to assume from the context what a blackcap is. 30 seconds or less with a songbird is quite typical for these birds.
 
I have reached my decision and will be keeping the lens.

1. It is more portable, cabin baggage, carrying, handling.
2. At this point, I/we cannot see any obvious defect, and if one is found, I have return rights for a time, plus warranty.
3. It is a mirrorless lens with no adapter required and safer connection to the body.
4. It has its limits, all tech does.
5. My skills need improving and I need to pay a bit less attention to finding subjects, crawling through bushes (these two need to stay, they are very important in my neck of the woods), and focusing, but also concern myself more with lighting.

Still a question though, a poster above suggested the pheasant was too soft (and the background is not sky but grass), but the last two posters focused on overcast skies. What is the opinion of the last two posters and generally on the pheasant? Also, the blackcap in the thickets was taken with 600mm f4, what are your thoughts on that? By the way, all song birds shots were done under pressure. The blackcap was come and gone completely in 30 seconds, the woodpecker, maybe in 20 seconds, never to come back dutring the day.
Whilst not quite an apples to apples comparison, PL tested the 800 5.6 F mount against the Z800 6.3 & found the sharpness of the former to be measurably superior (see link below). Obviously, as you note, it’s always a compromise with these things & I hope things work out for you. I have an older 600 f4 g vr & a 500 pf, and I often find myself using the pf more often simply because it is significantly easier to carry around. However, there is a noticeable difference in quality/rendering between the two in favour of the former in my opinion (I cannot quite articulate it, but amongst other things the colour, the background & the sharpness).

https://photographylife.com/comparison/nikon-z-800mm-f-6-3-pf-vs-nikon-800mm-f-5-6e-fl
 
If you don't have a baseline of how good a lens is, how do you know if a lens is not suited for your typical shooting conditions or it is straight up bad/defective ?

What the OP obstinately refuses to do is establish that baseline...
I don't need a baseline using methods that don't impact a typical shoot. I take the lens out, I shoot it, I check the results. That's my baseline. If I don't shoot with a tripod, then that information does me no good.

The information I need shows up in post. Most of us have an established workflow and base settings, right? Does this new lens deliver the same results without taking extraordinary measures? Does it need considerable sharpening, contrast, saturation, CA adjustment, or does it fall within a normal range? If I can process an image using normal settings and it looks like my typical output, then the lens is good for my use. (y)

When evaluating a lens before purchase, I check some reviews and a few charts to get an idea of the viability, but I am far more interested in seeing the results that everyman is achieving. Forums like this and others are invaluable in assessing possible results.
 
I have reached my decision and will be keeping the lens.

1. It is more portable, cabin baggage, carrying, handling.
2. At this point, I/we cannot see any obvious defect, and if one is found, I have return rights for a time, plus warranty.
3. It is a mirrorless lens with no adapter required and safer connection to the body.
4. It has its limits, all tech does.
5. My skills need improving and I need to pay a bit less attention to finding subjects, crawling through bushes (these two need to stay, they are very important in my neck of the woods), and focusing, but also concern myself more with lighting.

Still a question though, a poster above suggested the pheasant was too soft (and the background is not sky but grass), but the last two posters focused on overcast skies. What is the opinion of the last two posters and generally on the pheasant? Also, the blackcap in the thickets was taken with 600mm f4, what are your thoughts on that? By the way, all song birds shots were done under pressure. The blackcap was come and gone completely in 30 seconds, the woodpecker, maybe in 20 seconds, never to come back dutring the day.
Keep the lens only if you think you can use it effectively. Your 5th point is the most important with regard to practice and improving the skill set. There is no substitute for understanding light (quantity, quality, temperature, atmospherics, etc.) and how the camera interprets it. I appreciate that you want to "get the shot" at all costs and sometimes that's ok when one wants to shoot to work on other aspects of photography such as AF, tracking, framing, etc. Recognize how these factors will impact your image and utilize your knowledge and experience to leverage better results. You mentioned that the bird shots were, "done under pressure". What does that mean? Nearly every WL shot (and most photography) involves some degree of "pressure" namely timing, lighting, composition, physical environment, and other limitations. Gaining comfort in those circumstances and understanding how to best manipulate those factors given the situation are most important. Even with a degree of mastery, at times the outcomes will be less than ideal.

We addressed the issues of overcast conditions and many people (myself included) prefer overcast light because of its diffuse and even fill characteristics. It still has directionality and can change depending on the situation and may be associated with atmospherics. As we mentioned, generally one wants to avoid shooting subjects against a stark, overcast sky if possible and/or compensate exposure accordingly.

Let me pivot to some important aspects of your photography which are worth exploring, namely proper exposure and post processing. It is essential that one endeavors to get the exposure right (ETR) in camera as much as possible. That being said, the image the camera captures rarely represents what your eye and brain perceives and therein lies the importance of post processing. When I looked at the latest series of images you posted, nearly all of them were underexposed whether it was the birds against the sky, the birds in the thicket, etc. Without discussing HDR and bracketing in general, underexposure sacrifices information and that may be contributing to some of your lackluster results. For maximum image fidelity, you need to expose correctly.

Additionally, it is important that you spend some time post processing your images to achieve optimal results. Again, it is difficult to assess an image's acutance, focus, etc. when it is underexposed. Take your Blackcap (?) for instance (the exif information is missing). When I opened the image in my browser, it was clear from the histogram that the image was between 2/3rds to almost a stop underexposed. I didn't do much to the image other than opening the exposure, setting the white/black points, and adding a bit of contrast. That alone improved the image significantly (see below). When I looked at the pheasant image (exif missing), it was apparent that you had sacrificed the whites (namely the ring around the neck and beak), they were blown in the .jpg and the detail was largely unrecoverable (maybe it can be done in the original RAW?). Nonetheless, I did some basic tonal adjustments, and likewise the image has improved. An image such as this would require a bit more effort than I applied and would benefit from dodging/burning and other adjustments. I should note, the downloaded image appears sharper than the one displayed on the site for whatever reason and you may want to add some additional sharpening for the intended output.

Without knowing the degree of crop applied to these two images, and other factors, they seem reasonably representative of what one can expect out of the 800 PF in terms of color, contrast, sharpness, etc. Hope this helps.
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I am someone who has only been involved with long lenses and bird photography for about a year. As such I have a lot of sympathy for the OP’s situation and experience here.

I remember when I first started shooting birds with long lenses I was very disappointed with the results. I was very intimidated and felt like it was my fault.

i went through a learning process. I read a lot on here and I reviewed the Steve Perry guides. Shot a lot and learned what works.

Gradually I came to understand how these lenses need to be worked and things got better.

Part of the fun about this whole photography thing is thatthere is always more to learn and improve technique.

iNow I take my z800 out on a shoot and am very happy with what I am now able to produce. I am having a lot of fun and it keeps me engaged and active.

Plus I now have all this cool s*8
 
I have been using long lenses with good results for at least 14 months. My motivation in considering a lighter long lens was weight on long photo expeditions as opposed to one-off hikes. My frustration had to do especially with the first copy of 800mm and then I was surprised I was not getting particularly good results with the second copy as well. Turning back to my trusty 600mm f4e I realised that I am not having good time with this either, to a lesser degree but still noticeable.

I am now pursuing two parallel investigations of my raw files and equipment by Nikon UK and a vendor here. My current suspicion is that the Z9 may have dirty sensor or a mechanical fault due to several falls on hard surface. I am afraid there is nothing more substantial I can say until this is confirmed or debunked. It is all on the clock as I need to either return or accept the second 800mm lens.

I'll post an update here when I have some clarity.

Many thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.
 
Following up on this, a Nikon specialist here has examined a bunch of NEF files and we had a call and I will be sending the camera and the 600mm f4 lens to Fixation UK for full checkup, cleaning, aligning etc, whatever it takes to bring this back to the expected good working state. The files he is completely certain are a) not normal, b) not caused by atmospherics--they are due to the hardware issues. The 800mm in question (and potentially, the first copy) should not have been blamed for these issues, so the point about the comparison was made very muddled by a likely camera fault.

Once the equipment is back from Fixation--assuming a fix is even possible--there will be another story to follow up in terms figuring out the way forward with the right equipment.

Again, many thanks to all who contributed, it all highlights the point that there are many factors affecting the resulting photos we take, and they all matter with one of the chief ones being taking good care of the equipment.
 
I have been using long lenses with good results for at least 14 months. My motivation in considering a lighter long lens was weight on long photo expeditions as opposed to one-off hikes. My frustration had to do especially with the first copy of 800mm and then I was surprised I was not getting particularly good results with the second copy as well. Turning back to my trusty 600mm f4e I realised that I am not having good time with this either, to a lesser degree but still noticeable.

I am now pursuing two parallel investigations of my raw files and equipment by Nikon UK and a vendor here. My current suspicion is that the Z9 may have dirty sensor or a mechanical fault due to several falls on hard surface. I am afraid there is nothing more substantial I can say until this is confirmed or debunked. It is all on the clock as I need to either return or accept the second 800mm lens.

I'll post an update here when I have some clarity.

Many thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.

I'm betting something will come back and be faulty in the body with that report.

In January 2024 I dropped my Z9 + 400TC from shoulder height to cement. While both appeared okay, they both had internal issues that required fixing. These are complex pieces of tech and there are many things that our untrained eyes cannot see.

I think you'll soon be in a place to appreciate and love the 800PF. Best of luck.
 
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