Disclosing Wildlife Locations On a Public Forum -Your Thoughts

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I’m a relative newbie to wildlife photography and can’t seem to even find bears at Cade’s Cove and so I wondered why folks were reluctant or just refused to share information about the locations of animals. But then I saw first hand what happens in Yellowstone , and other places, and was grossly upset at what I witnessed and the utter disrespect shown for the animals. There is a beautiful field in upstate NY where owls nest on the ground and winter over. I’d go out there and be completely alone until word got out. Suddenly the parking lot and road sides were loaded with cars and people and, if you can believe it, hunting dogs off leash running through the fields Kicking up the owls. That ended for me the sharing of information and I reported it to NYS department of conservation. I’ve never been back there and have no idea the damage that may have been done and the stress experienced by those owls. This thread has confirmed for me the correctness of my decision.
 
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I am in agreement with NOT revealing exact locations. The general area is fine ( like the Rockies west of Calgary or Kananaskis Country ).
Unfortunately, I have seen areas flooded with “photographers” taking pictures of owls, for example, within the city. I have even heard of “photographers” BAITING for birds or wildlife ( wolves !!).
Not everyone is responsible and stressing these animals is not a good idea.
My 2 cents.
 
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PAUL50 said:
I’m a relative newbie to wildlife photography and can’t seem to even find bears at Cade’s Cove and so I wondered why folks were reluctant or just refused to share information about the locations of animals. But then I saw first hand what happens in Yellowstone , and other places, and was grossly upset at what I witnessed and the utter disrespect shown for the animals. There is a beautiful field in upstate NY where owls nest on the ground and winter over. I’d go out there and be completely alone until word got out. Suddenly the parking lot and road sides were loaded with cars and people and, if you can believe it, hunting dogs off leash running through the fields Kicking up the owls. That ended for me the sharing of information and I reported it to NYS department of conservation. I’ve never been back there and have no idea the damage that may have been done and the stress experienced by those owls. This thread has confirmed for me the correctness of my decision.
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Sending dogs to flush them out? Wow - that is nuts!
 
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Steve said:
Sending dogs to flush them out? Wow - that is nuts!
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I was astounded and that’s when I called the conservation folks. Turns out they are pretty good at enforcement but as I said, I never went back. I did learn from the conservation person I spoke to that that particular area is used every winter by the owls and the neighboring farmers are protective of the owls. I probably wasn’t the first to call. I don’t remember what species of owls it was but it also surprised me to learn they nested in the field and not in trees.
 
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Thern said:
I never share nor will I ever share locations on a forum or other social media.

The problem with the concept to share info with those you think you can trust is a simple one.
There’s allways at least one which happens to be not trustworthy.
Sounds bitter and it is, but I’ve seen that happen more than once.
It’s a bit like telling a secret to your best friend who passes that info to his best friend and so on.....
Before you know it that secret is a public secret reaching ‘a best friend’ who wouldn’t qualify to be your best friend at all.

In the Netherlands they have a site Waarneming.nl where people can pass info about sightings of rare species.
Resulting in literrally hundreds of photogs jumping in their cars to go to that location and shoot that species

a pic tells more than a thousand words...
(Shot within half an hour after the first sighting):oops:


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I am still laughing at the links you posted. Those crowds are hilarious. I've been to Holland many times and can appreciate your links. and comments. Those crowds are typical but the people are generally very polite. and considerate.
 
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My friend and I would bicycle the California coast from Oregon to Los Angeles, roughly 800 miles, a coupe times each year. We would see at most two other individuals touring as well and usually one of those would be a hobo. We produced a map in 1974 to show how to navigate legally on a bicycle along the coast roads and 10,000 were printed by the CA Division of Highways and the following summer we saw an explosion of the number of touring cyclists on the coastal highway. We had mixed feelings as it had been "our highway" in some respects.

If a photography gives a location for a spotted owl nest it is quite different than disclosing where there is a beaver den or elk river crossing on public lands. And it is incorrect to assume that horde of photographers at a spot in Yellowstone is not stressing the animals and causing them to alter their behavior or harming their health. The problem is that there are too many wildlife photographers in a relatively small area who need to get their shots to add to their collection and are blinded to the impacts of their own behavior.

Even driving through areas is damaging with the recent evidence that a compound produced from tire particles is going into streams and killing off most of the coho salmon. Eating meat results in the clearing of more and more of the Amazon forests to produce soy and raise beef cattle and pigs. Half the greenhouse gas emissions are from meat and dairy production. Important to have perspective as to which behaviors are doing the most damage to wildlife.
 
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birdied said:
For me, some of the best things about wildlife photography are spending time with nature, the wild animals and when we become active on an online forum, we become part of that community as well.

I think it is fair to say, that most of us share a passion and love for photography and our subjects, the ones we love to photography and possibly try to protect.

On other forums , I have seen requests for locations and see some post the locations as part of the post. ( I am not referring to the well know locations for subjects, but rather the ones that someone has to tell you about to find )

Over the years, many have helped me and I am so very grateful for that help. I feel the need to pass on what I can to those who want to know. l like to pass on information and hopefully help another photographer. In an ideal world , this is how I feel it should be . Truth be told , this is the real world and an online world at that , so maybe my best intentions are not the best idea.

I have been wondering about this disclosure of locations on a public forum where we have no idea who receives the information or what they will do with it.

I have read several incidents of animals becoming stressed and having to move to lesser productive and more dangerous places due to the pressures put on them. I have read of hunters using some of the bird sites that list species seen as road maps to targets.

I am fairly certain that most times, no harm comes to animals with information that is passed on regarding location. But what about the times you read about that it did ?

I know some will feel that if something is legal it should be acceptable. I don't necessarily feel that way, morality and ethics are a part that need to be considered in my opinion.


Not all photographers follow ethics when getting a shot. For those who are new to photography or just unaware there are several places you can search to read about what is considered ethical in wildlife photography. Here are just a few:

www.photoblog.com

Wildlife Photography Ethics That Makes You a Responsible Photographer

Aiming for popularity and likes, we've forgotten how to be ethical. In this article, we discuss wildlife photography ethics
www.photoblog.com www.photoblog.com

www.nationalgeographic.com

How to photograph wildlife ethically

Putting the well-being of animals first should be every photographer’s goal. National Geographic photographers share tips on how they do it.
www.nationalgeographic.com www.nationalgeographic.com


www.picturecorrect.com

The Darker Side of Wildlife Photography: Understanding Ethical Practices

With the advent of high-tech cameras and editing software that just about anyone can get to grips with, we’ve seen a transformation in wildlife photography. A transformation that many say is for the better. But as with any change, there are problems. Editing software now means that it’s possible...
www.picturecorrect.com www.picturecorrect.com

My thought is a simple one - Any potential harm to the animal should be considered first and foremost and is much more important than a possible offense taken by anyone you choose not to share the information.

I know some will differ on this subject . Each is entitled to their own thoughts , ethics and views.

I hope some of you will share your thoughts and experiences as I think we can all learn from each other.

Birdie
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^
Thern said:
I never share nor will I ever share locations on a forum or other social media.

The problem with the concept to share info with those you think you can trust is a simple one.
There’s allways at least one which happens to be not trustworthy.
Sounds bitter and it is, but I’ve seen that happen more than once.
It’s a bit like telling a secret to your best friend who passes that info to his best friend and so on.....
Before you know it that secret is a public secret reaching ‘a best friend’ who wouldn’t qualify to be your best friend at all.

In the Netherlands they have a site Waarneming.nl where people can pass info about sightings of rare species.
Resulting in literrally hundreds of photogs jumping in their cars to go to that location and shoot that species

a pic tells more than a thousand words...
(Shot within half an hour after the first sighting):oops:


OR


OR


OR

Click to expand...
 
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Like most of you, I don't give specific locations. I will post on eBird, but usually don't get into specifics. Nests and nesting activity is not reported to the public.

One of the useful ways to avoid creating excessive traffic for a subject is to delay any social media post a week or two. Another approach is to be very general with your location - Yellowstone is a big park and even Hayden Valley includes a huge area. Reporting wolves on a kill is the kind of thing I'd delay even general sharing for two to three weeks.
 
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So sad nobody has anything to say about this! I am very encouraged by the general agreement that we shouldn't spread this sort of species and location data. Especially where nature is concerned, I very much wish the internet and especially social media had never been invented. Those paparazzi pictures above completely turn my stomach. Also, where "trusted people" are concerned, remember that you are also telling the people THEY will (inevitably) tell. So please tell no one, ever.
 
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PAUL50 said:
I was astounded and that’s when I called the conservation folks. Turns out they are pretty good at enforcement but as I said, I never went back. I did learn from the conservation person I spoke to that that particular area is used every winter by the owls and the neighboring farmers are protective of the owls. I probably wasn’t the first to call. I don’t remember what species of owls it was but it also surprised me to learn they nested in the field and not in trees.
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I am not familiar with that region. Definitely burrowing owls nest in the ground out West. Could be other owl species that prefer trees but have taken over the nest of other birds like harriers, out of necessity???
 
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Another aspect to this issue is how you came to know of a photographic site. I go out with a guide about once a year, and I'll never share his locations with anyone. If someone asks, I give them his contact information and suggest that they hire him for a day to go out and shoot. Otherwise, the information they're asking for is out there for them to find if they are patient and persistent. And if a friend shares a "secret spot" with me, I sure don't share it with just anyone, either. It's like fishing guides get a bit upset if they find out that you're tracking their fishing spots with a GPS when you're out on a charter with them.

BTW, the last time I was out with my guide, he told me about a former client who hired him several times, and then bought a boat and went into the guide business as a competitor, which takes the issue to an extreme. And a lot of nerve, if you ask me.

W
 
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Well I think BirdDog said it best. For me and obviously many more on this forum finding these locations or should I say stumbling a pond them more like, is the best part of wildlife photography. Here in Bulgaria telling anyone would mean the animal would be in danger.
 
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It's not just wildlife. I live on the Florida Gulf Coast, east of Pensacola, and there are laws protecting the dunes on barrier islands. Many signs inform/warn visitors to stay out of and off of the dunes. Yet, there are constant issues with people disturbing the dunes. And photographers with portrait session clients are often the worst violators. I've witnessed a photographer actually telling her clients that they could be fined for what they were doing, so they had to work quickly to get the session finished so they wouldn't get caught.

You just can't make some people understand that what they do does matter, and that the rules do apply to them and not just everyone else.

W
 
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Whiskeyman said:
It's not just wildlife. I live on the Florida Gulf Coast, east of Pensacola, and there are laws protecting the dunes on barrier islands. Many signs inform/warn visitors to stay out of and off of the dunes. Yet, there are constant issues with people disturbing the dunes. And photographers with portrait session clients are often the worst violators. I've witnessed a photographer actually telling her clients that they could be fined for what they were doing, so they had to work quickly to get the session finished so they wouldn't get caught.

You just can't make some people understand that what they do does matter, and that the rules do apply to them and not just everyone else.

W
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I agree the majority of people don't care. I left the UK because our wild areas are now accessed by everyone and anyone. Twenty years ago you could walk in the lake District and not see a soul all day, now you join the queue. I moved to Bulgaria where they care even less but with a population of only 6 million ish they have less impact on the wild areas. It saddens me really but there is little that can be done about it. I think the problem is they have made access to these areas too easy. Tracks in the Uk which were n't tracks at all and were a difficult scrambles have now become paved steps.
 
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Mr F Stop. said:
I agree the majority of people don't care. I left the UK because our wild areas are now accessed by everyone and anyone. Twenty years ago you could walk in the lake District and not see a soul all day, now you join the queue. I moved to Bulgaria where they care even less but with a population of only 6 million ish they have less impact on the wild areas. It saddens me really but there is little that can be done about it. I think the problem is they have made access to these areas too easy. Tracks in the Uk which were n't tracks at all and were a difficult scrambles have now become paved steps.
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Mr F Stop. said:
I agree the majority of people don't care. I left the UK because our wild areas are now accessed by everyone and anyone. Twenty years ago you could walk in the lake District and not see a soul all day, now you join the queue. I moved to Bulgaria where they care even less but with a population of only 6 million ish they have less impact on the wild areas. It saddens me really but there is little that can be done about it. I think the problem is they have made access to these areas too easy. Tracks in the Uk which were n't tracks at all and were a difficult scrambles have now become paved steps.
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I live in England so know exactly what you mean.
There are three lakes near where I live with large sections & areas that were totally inaccessible a few years ago which became a valuable habitat for Bitterns, but due to the area around it being built up saw a demand for the new tenants to have somewhere to exercise & walk their dogs & pretty much over a period of about two years saw the entire perimeter of all three lakes made accessible. They put in paved paths including ramps for disabled access, car parks & even a cafe!
They relocated (or tried to relocate) the Bitterns but the numbers were never the same.
 
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In South Africa we have a group "SA Rare Bird News" that receives and disseminates information on rarities to group members giving species and location. Generally the sightings are on private or public land with restricted access and the "twitchers" tend to be pretty disciplined. Also the majority of the birds that turn up are non-breeding migrants. For many years there was a pair of breeding Taita falcons in a mountainous area on the road to the Kruger Park and countless birders stopped to "tick" them off their bird lists. There was a small industry as a couple of locals would point them out high on the cliff face. This was totally harmless and led to some of the people there becoming interested in birds. Where rare breeding birds are concerned the location is rarely revealed.

Currently there are a number of rarities attracting attention and this is a typical alert -

GIGA ALERT

"
This news is 4 days old already, but it is still important to get it out there now, so that people are aware of this and can check all estuaries along the northern KZN coastline in the hope of relocating this bird…

SOOTY GULL – a single bird was seen and photographed just after 9am on Saturday, 28 November, at the St Lucia estuary (KZN). I have now received 5 photos of the bird and the timestamps range from 09h02 – 09h07 – reported by Ian Macdonald.

A number of locals are already out at the St Lucia estuary right now trying to find it again, but no luck so far…

More news hopefully as and when I receive it…! "

To get there is an excursion of note from our major centres - Johannesburg 600km 7hr drive, Cape Town 1860 km 24 hour drive

However, there are always some fanatics who not only want to list the bird but get a photo record as well - go figure :)

As far as rhinos are concerned, very few people will reveal exact locations, even in the Kruger Park where poaching accounts for about 200 rhino each year. To put this in perspective the KNP is the just about the size of Wales and slightly smaller than Israel.

Fortunately our active wildlife photogarhic community is relatively spread out and we have many fantastic venues so overcrowding is almost unknown.
 
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Much of my professional career has been grounded in environmental conservation, with respect to feeding new information to decision makers. Photography is a menas to this goal, whether of museum species or of species in natural landscapes and more. This data and synthesized finding range from global decision making on monitoring ecosystems, highlighting overlooked biodiversity hotspots using new biodiversity and geobiotic insights in Africa (eg Katanga, Angola, Congo) through to flagging individual species at risk, so describing new species (often these are local aka "narrow-range" endemics eg bats, antelopes etc). One of my groups have discovered 14 or more new species of African killifishes to science - one named for Sr David Attenborough. This species is endemic to the Grumeti drainage so its flagship role for conservation of the Serengeti-Mara ecosystem cannot be overstated. Nevertheless, we are deliberately imprecise about actual collecting localities of the voucher specimens of such species, because as with herps and some insects, these fishes are popular aquaria subjects - so very valuable in the trade.

Popular destinations also end up polluted even damaged by the droves of landscape photographers seeking to emulate their own images etc and do so to gain social media profile or whatever.

The same principles apply to many large mammals notably all the rhinos but also elephants carrying big ivory - for obvious reasons. The same applies to raptors. I have been privy and indeed directly supported forensic and related antipoaching work for several threatened species. This includes this repeat offender who is back behind bars where he belongs - . The offender and his deceased father began stealing raptor eggs and fudging scientific data over 40 years ago. As seriously they forged monitoring results, which goes to show it is hard to trust anyone with sensitive data and species at risk https://www.outsideonline.com/23787...ial&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=onsiteshare

Bottom line - NEVER share precise localities of any species unless with credible conservation researchers/law enforcement.
 
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Sadly, not everyone attracted to studying wildlife, birding and nature photography are ethical. Too many seem to be insensitive to the sensitivities of their subjects; some offenders are utterly egocentric in pursuit of images. There are published guidelines
www.outdoorphotographer.com

Ethics From Empathy In Wildlife Photography - Outdoor Photographer

Field ethics in wildlife photography begins with empathy. With an informed approach, we can both protect wildlfe and capture more meaningful images.
www.outdoorphotographer.com www.outdoorphotographer.com
.

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com

I find it useful as a universal guide to apply an axiom of clandestine operations taught in counter-insurgency, anti-poaching and indeed hunting: every animal you encounter possesses the right of way, and so take great lengths to avoid disturbing any ie don't threaten any you encounter. Respect the proverbial circle of awareness, and keep well out of any threating zone. Common sense - or this should be.

The repeated offenders in wildlife photographers can be well known, even infamous personalities. This clown finally overstepped the limits but has been using prominent subjects (including captive cats) to fuel his ego for years https://fstoppers.com/animal/david-yarrow-running-afoul-ethics-wildlife-photography-again-524660

Another example: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...95136824.1073741826.1801616007&type=3&theater

www.facebook.com

Friends of Mana Pools, Zimbabwe | amazing article and pictures from Mana Pools | Facebook

amazing article and pictures from Mana Pools
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com

Some of the tourist operators and guides are equally to blame, including E Africa - chasing big tips and taking bribes to rush off a trophy list of species etc. These impacts including exposing breeding species to predators eg denning carnivores, nesting birds etc. Provoking elephants etc to charge the vehicle. Unfortunately too few of these offenders (what we locally ern "croc-bait") get themselves killed off in the process

Last but not least, certain African countries have the legislation to prosecute prominent culprits. Even brief tenure in a central African jail ie pre-trial can be a terminal experience.
 
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