Are you sure the contraption doesn’t have some limits? I was looking at these for backup options. I thought they had some.
diy cfe-b cards
- Thread starter John Navitsky
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
these devices have no circuits. they are simply (electro-)physical adapters.
am i sure? no, i don't think i'd go quite that far.
we might get some better feel if i can get some benchmark numbers using my pci-to-cfe-b adapter card.
but all my results are consistent. ALL the high end cards, including the lexar diamond which i measured at 1666.42MB/s and that should pretty comfortably support 20fps lossless.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i spent many, many hours trying to get my four sabrent rocket 4.0 2230 drives to the current fw level.
i had four of these drives, 2 x 512GB, 2 x 1TB, and i managed to get only half of them updated. in all cases they were all one rev behind in fw.
i will say that my pc does not like those particular drives connected in any way other than usb (which isn't a method i can use to flash).
my system won't boot with those connected via pci to m.2 adapter, nor via pci to cfe-b adapter, nor in a motherboard m.2 slot.
for a while there i started to think it was just my system, but i confirmed that i could use a different m.2 module in the pci to m.2 adapter in any of the pci slots.
i don't know if these drives are "bad" or what. they work when used via usb and in the camera, but this inability to work in this way and my inability to get their fw up to date makes me trust them less and highlights a risk with the diy approach. i think this will all be better on thunderbolt systems since i understand we can flash thunderbolt connected devices, and there are lots of thunderbolt enclosures, and now even thunderbolt cfe-b readers that we can use
i had four of these drives, 2 x 512GB, 2 x 1TB, and i managed to get only half of them updated. in all cases they were all one rev behind in fw.
i will say that my pc does not like those particular drives connected in any way other than usb (which isn't a method i can use to flash).
my system won't boot with those connected via pci to m.2 adapter, nor via pci to cfe-b adapter, nor in a motherboard m.2 slot.
for a while there i started to think it was just my system, but i confirmed that i could use a different m.2 module in the pci to m.2 adapter in any of the pci slots.
i don't know if these drives are "bad" or what. they work when used via usb and in the camera, but this inability to work in this way and my inability to get their fw up to date makes me trust them less and highlights a risk with the diy approach. i think this will all be better on thunderbolt systems since i understand we can flash thunderbolt connected devices, and there are lots of thunderbolt enclosures, and now even thunderbolt cfe-b readers that we can use
John Navitsky
Well-known member
one thing i picked up is while cfe is “just” nvme, it does have a lower power threshold, which implies not all modules may work
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i’ve decided to do one last performance related test. there are some intel optane m.2 modules on fire sale and they have incredibly low latency. i’ve ordered on of these and will try it in the m.2 to cfe adapter in-camera
i actually have a little expectation that if these run at all that it’ll run somewhat faster in camera than anything we’ve seen before since while i think the camera is the bottleneck, these should reduce the time the camera is waiting between operations
i actually have a little expectation that if these run at all that it’ll run somewhat faster in camera than anything we’ve seen before since while i think the camera is the bottleneck, these should reduce the time the camera is waiting between operations
Intel OPTANE SSD P1600X Series 118GB M.2
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
optane in-camera test is a bust. green light goes on and never goes off. GUESSING it doesn't get enough power. works in a card reader in the same rig.
suggestions welcome, but seems like it's a bust
INTEL SSDPEK1A118GA : 118.4 GB
FW: U5110550
suggestions welcome, but seems like it's a bust
INTEL SSDPEK1A118GA : 118.4 GB
FW: U5110550
What is the reason at half full the card choked? Are Delkin cards double in size for that matter?
I have a feeling Nikon throttles the buffer to control the heat buildup.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
John Navitsky
Well-known member
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
i haven’t tried to do full benchmarks, but i did get a couple of the current fastest 2230 cards and they perform in-camera more or less like the previous fastest cards, which is to say you still cannot sustain 20fps in HE*, the buffer slowly goes down to zero then you have some stutteringoth, cheap 2TB!
You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
So the hang up is what? The transmission from the card through the case?
John Navitsky
Well-known member
no, i think it’s an intrinsic limitation of the existing expeed7/fw
Voided warranty on whatever you put it in. Priceless!Some folks may have seen posts about building DIY CFE-b cards. Most folks who post that are trying to suggest this for budget purposes.
I think that implies the solution being a bit dodgy, and I took a look at this trying to see how much of the dodgy-ness we could remove from the equation.
Background:
* There are currently small form factor NVME drives called 2230 drives (2230 describes the physical size)
* CFE-b uses NVME, so you only need to accommodate the physical CFE-b plug. that is to say, you don't need any circuitry between the 2230 drive and the CFE-b interface, you just need to accommodate that they have different physical connectors
So the question really comes down to:
* Are there high quality 2230 cards?
* Are they fast enough
* Is there a good enough solution to deal with the physical aspects
* Reliability
First up, when I saw folks posting about this idea a while back, I immediately wondered about doing this for performance, not cost. As a result, I ended up looking around at what 2230 drives might be available.
Most of these drives are not consumer oriented, so there wasn't really any test data easily accessible. This made them somewhat un-interesting to me, because I figured you'd just have to buy and test a bunch of them.
But then I came across this review of the Sabrent Rocket 2230:
Sabrent Rocket Gen 4 2230 1TB M.2 SSD Review – Is this the Smallest and Fastest Storage Combination in the World? - The SSD Review
The theme of the day with respect to solid state storage seems to be form factor; the smaller the bewww.thessdreview.com
This is a fast, modern card. Of course you aren't going to be able to USE all that performance because CFE-b uses only two of the four NVME lanes and it's only PCI3, not PCI4 (while PCI4 drives can be used in PCI3 devices, they get the slower, PCI3, transfer rate). But still, we know this isn't a slow drive.
That solves the first two bullets.
The next thing is the shell. Here I noticed one of the videos used the following shell which is a milled solid aluminum shell. I figured it would be nice an rigid, and also provide something to heat sink to.
I figured the solid aluminum solves a lot of the reliability issue, but I figured there were a couple of outstanding issues.
I figured the screws could potentially come out and cause the card to get stuck in the camera. So I decided I'd locktight them in.
I figured we'd need good heat sinking, so I decided to use thermal paste to ensure a good, high quality bond to the shell, so I picked the Arctic MX-4 paste, which never hardens, is electrically inert and used it on BOTH sides.
I originally was thinking to pot the electronics around the connector and to secure the card in the shell, but in the end I didn't bother, but it might be something to consider to take this to the next level.
I also figured labels coming off might be a potential way things could get stuck in the camera so decided to avoid using stickers on the DIY cards.
I think this deals with the next two bullets.
The only bit of weird thing is it does seem to take a number of insertions/removals before it becomes smooth. I'd probably do this in a card reader before using in the camera.
Results with the 512GB cards suggest they are indistinguishable from my Delkin Black. Running two cards in backup mode also worked as well as with the Delkin Black cards.
All in all, I'm happy enough about this that I've ordered a pair of 1TB cards and shells.
I didn't really come at this looking for a cheaper solution, but, for those who are, it does seem like a performant setup with high quality parts and reliability risks mitigated.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KZIB1PU/?tag=backcogaller-20
Rocket 2230 NVMe 4.0 256GB
Need to upgrade your Steam Deck, Microsoft Surface, or other device where space is limited? We have you covered. It offers Gen4 NVMe performance in a tiny form factor. Hit up to 5GBps and push up to 800K IOPS with slick responsiveness. Backward compatible with Gen3 and Gen2 PCIe slots with...sabrent.com
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VN345D4/?tag=backcogaller-20
Costs:
* 512GB 2230 card $80 / $170 1TB
* Shell $50
* Thermal paste $10
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$140 512GB card
$230 1TB card
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beano
Well-known member
And why would that be the case? As someone that has been involved in computers hardware for a few decades, your comment doesn’t make any sense at all.
It is simply taking a PCIe NVMe ssd drive and pass it though an industrial standard CFEXpress B interface to your camera. No different really to buying a relatively cheap CFExpress B card and dropping it into your camera. As long as the metal clamshell is according to tolerances, no worries.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
fwiw, the new version of the metal clamshells looks more durable than the plastic/metal combos used by cfe-b manufacturers.