Does the Z6ii/Z7ii even have the capability for better AF with a firmware update?

[Kenny88]

Not knowing anything about how AF technology works and its dependency, all who own a Z6ii or Z7ii are hoping that Nikon releases a firmware update that will deliver fast autofocusing for sports/BIF, etc....but is the hardware in these models even capable of delivering fast AF such as that found in the Sony A1, or Z9?

With Nikon's Z9 advertised AF capability, and if it's good as they say, Nikon already knows what it takes, so the question will a firmware update is all that's needed, or would there need to be a new III model of the Z6/Z7?

Since not everyone can afford a Z9, and some might not like the bulkiness of it, I'd say Nikon would be smart to introduce another camera body with same AF as the Z9.

 

[John Navitsky]

I think at this point we can only make guesses.

Clearly Nikon put the second processor in the Z6ii and Z7ii for a reason, but that reason could have been as simple as enabling the second media card and the improvements we currently have.

We don't know if the second processor provides enough processing capability to provide a significantly better AF system than what we have. My hope has been that there is, and there was a widely circulated rumor that they would come out with a 2.0 FW that would add a reasonable improvement, but we don't know if that's true or possible.

What I think is clear is even if they provide a 2.0 FW with reasonably improved AF, it's not going to be anything close to the Z9 for a couple of reasons.

First, it sounds like the Expeed 7 provides about 10X improvement over the dual Expeed 6 configuration in the Zii cameras. Second, I don't know a lot about the AF portions of the sensors on the Z9 and the current Zii cameras, but they are likely significant.

I think the best we can _hope_ for is a reasonable, incremental improvement in the Zii cameras. And maybe we won't get that.

I think Nikon will be strongly motivated to release "iii" version(s) of it's cameras as soon as they can, probably powered by the Expeed 7. I'm guessing these will be in a new slightly larger body to accommodate a bit bigger battery, but that's just a wild guess.

I will say I've been very frustrated with and disappointed in Z6ii AF performance for action, and while I was toying with the idea of keeping my Z6ii for a backup camera, I've decided to forgo a backup all-together and sell the Z6ii and wait for the next generation.

 

[DRwyoming]

...but is the hardware in these models even capable of delivering fast AF such as that found in the Sony A1, or Z9?

I'm sure Nikon can add improvements to the Z6II and Z7II cameras but matching the performance of the Sony A1 or their own Z9 will almost certainly require a fast reading stacked sensor that both of those cameras use. That's a hardware upgrade.

IOW, sure there's almost certainly some ability to improve the current ZII cameras but matching the flaghships like the A1 or Z9 will require new hardware and not just firmware upgrades.

 

[RichF]

I'm sure Nikon can add improvements to the Z6II and Z7II cameras but matching the performance of the Sony A1 or their own Z9 will almost certainly require a fast reading stacked sensor that both of those cameras use. That's a hardware upgrade.

IOW, sure there's almost certainly some ability to improve the current ZII cameras but matching the flaghships like the A1 or Z9 will require new hardware and not just firmware upgrades.

Agree. There are probably two limitations. Sensor readout and how much firmware can the include in the camera. How is firmware stored and what is the storage limitation.

Wonder when we will see Z6/Z7 III?

 

[Charlie Lasswell]

What I'd like to see is some of the object detection AI from the Z9. There's probably hardware limitations on scan rate, blackout, etc., but what I want is an improvement in target acquisition. Maybe it's scaled back in what it can detect and the frequency of calculations so it's not as tenacious as a Z9, but it's the same flavor with a similar user experience.

 

[abc123brian]

The short answer is no, they cannot make the current Z bodies anywhere near the Z9 in performance. What we can expect within reason is the new tracking interface, improved object recognition and tracking, and faster target acquisition. The Z9 is just a lot faster overall and that will show. I think we will see enough of an improvement that the Z7ii will be seen as good enough AF for most wildlife. The EVF will still be an issue for trying to keep fast moving subjects in the frame. The Z7iiI will likely be the camera most are looking for, but still won’t be a Z9.

 

[BLev65]

The short answer is no, they cannot make the current Z bodies anywhere near the Z9 in performance. What we can expect within reason is the new tracking interface, improved object recognition and tracking, and faster target acquisition. The Z9 is just a lot faster overall and that will show. I think we will see enough of an improvement that the Z7ii will be seen as good enough AF for most wildlife. The EVF will still be an issue for trying to keep fast moving subjects in the frame. The Z7iiI will likely be the camera most are looking for, but still won’t be a Z9.

I hope you are right!

 

[FB101]

The real question in my mind is whether they can make the Z7ii into an R5... i think if they could they would have already but one can only hope. My guess based on rolling shutter is that the Z7 sensor is slower than the R5’s and the dual processor of the Z7ii is still shy of the capability of the single processor in the canon. But hopefully I’m wrong.

 

[John Navitsky]

The real question in my mind is whether they can make the Z7ii into an R5...

^ this right here

 

[BLev65]

The real question in my mind is whether they can make the Z7ii into an R5... i think if they could they would have already but one can only hope. My guess based on rolling shutter is that the Z7 sensor is slower than the R5’s and the dual processor of the Z7ii is still shy of the capability of the single processor in the canon. But hopefully I’m wrong.

I think that this is wishful thinking. The R5 has a faster and more responsive image sensor. It was designed to be the camera it is. Nikon's Z-ii series are incremental upgrades with some opportunity for improvement, but I don't think they could reach the AF sophistication or frame rate of an R5.
I would be pleased if Nikon could meet Brian123's limited requests: "What we can expect within reason is the new tracking interface, improved object recognition and tracking, and faster target acquisition" and possibly add bird/animal (non pet) eye AF.
I was shooting deer all weekend and gave eye-AF tracking a go in wide mode, and my Z6II was pretty impressive. All of my images were sharp and focus was on the eye. Deer have large eyes and are pretty slow, it would be nice to get this type of eye tracking on a sandpiper or otter.

regards,
bruce

 

[jeffnles1]

Can't speak for anyone but me and my shooting style. I don't "need" 20 or 30 or 120 fps. I'm more than satisfied with the 10fps of my D500. If Nikon could update the Z7ii to bring about tracking AF on par with some of the others I'd be happy. If not, then a Z6, Z7 iii would be welcome. I don't really care about stacked sensor and blazing frame rates but solid AF that can lock on and be snappy is a need. I have not used the current Z cameras but every review and "opinion" seems to suggest their AF is not up to the D500 or D850 standard of quality. Maybe not the same but different but not necessarily different in a good way.

However, only Nikon knows what Nikon will do next. Sitting on the sidelines watching for now.
Jeff

 

[Anjin San]

What they all said. The second processor in the Z7II will alaloe some…firmware space permitting…of the improvements to be put into the earlier models. Some of the improvements…FPS and no blackout EVF for instance…require hardware and aren’t happening.

what we might see is the Zo sensor in the Z7III…depending on cost of it compared to the current sensor and how much Nikon wants to differentiate the models. The Zo is too large, heavy, and expensive for a lot of us and putting as many of the Z9 features in the $3500ish body would sell a lot more cameras.

only Nikon really knows what they want to do though.

 

[MartyD]

I do think there is some room for firmware improvements in the Z6ii and Z7ii, but what I am not exactly sure. The Ziis should have close to double the processing power of the original Zs with the additional Expeed 6 processor. What I hope has happened is that Nikon put all of their programming power towards the development of the algorithms necessary for the Z9. I think the Z6ii/Z7ii were selling well enough for Nikon and releasing the Z9 was their most important programming project so it received all of the resources possible. Once the Z9 algorithms are developed I hope Nikon will determine what features can be scaled back to fit into the Z6ii/Z7ii processors.

 

[Kenny88]

Well said - that's what my thought is as well - the Z9 is all mighty great, but it's target to a different audience, and for one, those that can afford to pay for it. We'll have to see what the sales % ratio is between the Z9 vs the Z6ii/Z7ii - I suspect that there'll be a higher Z6ii/Z7ii owner base than the Z9. Well, if Nikon can produce a D500 mirrorless equivalent, they'd make a lot more $$ since I think there's a larger population in the more consumer group vs Pro level - not to say that the Z6ii/Z7ii isn't by any means Pro level, but to me Pro level means someone who makes a living with their camera and gets paid to support and justify the spending of such high end camera bodies, which supports the work that they do.

What they all said. The second processor in the Z7II will alaloe some…firmware space permitting…of the improvements to be put into the earlier models. Some of the improvements…FPS and no blackout EVF for instance…require hardware and aren’t happening.

what we might see is the Zo sensor in the Z7III…depending on cost of it compared to the current sensor and how much Nikon wants to differentiate the models. The Zo is too large, heavy, and expensive for a lot of us and putting as many of the Z9 features in the $3500ish body would sell a lot more cameras.

only Nikon really knows what they want to do though.

 

[RichF]

I do think there is some room for firmware improvements in the Z6ii and Z7ii, but what I am not exactly sure. The Ziis should have close to double the processing power of the original Zs with the additional Expeed 6 processor. What I hope has happened is that Nikon put all of their programming power towards the development of the algorithms necessary for the Z9. I think the Z6ii/Z7ii were selling well enough for Nikon and releasing the Z9 was their most important programming project so it received all of the resources possible. Once the Z9 algorithms are developed I hope Nikon will determine what features can be scaled back to fit into the Z6ii/Z7ii processors.

Hopefully Nikon will be able to improve AF firmware in these cameras. Perhaps even go to a higher FPS when in electronic shutter mode.

Nikon needs to be weigh the benefits of improving the Z6/7 II which could hurt Z9 sales or cannibalize Z6/7 III sales. I would love to be in a fly on the wall in their product planning meetings

 

[jeffnles1]

Hopefully Nikon will be able to improve AF firmware in these cameras. Perhaps even go to a higher FPS when in electronic shutter mode.

Nikon needs to be weigh the benefits of improving the Z6/7 II which could hurt Z9 sales or cannibalize Z6/7 III sales. I would love to be in a fly on the wall in their product planning meetings

I think at the end of the day they will have to differentiate the product lines like they did with the D500, D850, D780 and D5/6. The spec sheet on the Z9 looks like a great, although very expensive, camera. If, through firmware, they can up the AF capability on the Zii series making them "80-90%" the Z9 they won't eat much into the Z9 sales but may eat into the Canon R5 and Sony A7Riv and A74 sales which would be a big win for Nikon.

Pricing and product differentiation is more art than science. Hope there are some artists in the ranks of Nikon.
Jeff

 

[Ductape]

With pre orders for the Z9 already through the roof, why shouldn't Nikon now work on retaining the ZII crowd.

 

[John Navitsky]

With pre orders for the Z9 already through the roof, why shouldn't Nikon now work on retaining the ZII crowd.

I think they will if they can. It would be a huge win for them if you could have near R5/R6 performance with a FW update. The big question is does the dual Expeed 6 configuration have enough chops to do it and that's very unclear.

 

[RichF]

I think at the end of the day they will have to differentiate the product lines like they did with the D500, D850, D780 and D5/6. The spec sheet on the Z9 looks like a great, although very expensive, camera. If, through firmware, they can up the AF capability on the Zii series making them "80-90%" the Z9 they won't eat much into the Z9 sales but may eat into the Canon R5 and Sony A7Riv and A74 sales which would be a big win for Nikon.

Pricing and product differentiation is more art than science. Hope there are some artists in the ranks of Nikon.
Jeff

Agree but the caveat that 90% of Z9 in the Z7 II would definitely hurt Z9 sales. 75% not much.

 

[BLev65]

Agree but the caveat that 90% of Z9 in the Z7 II would definitely hurt Z9 sales. 75% not much.

The sensor in the Z6/Z7II is the bottleneck, so these camera will never be within "90%" of the AF, frame rate, or video performance of the Z9. In addition, most people buying the Z9 are doing so for the whole package.
However, I have little doubt that some of these Z9 buyers plunked their money down wanting some of the Sony A1 goodness. Willing to spend what it takes in the heat of the moment, I think that a few bodies will be on the used market within a year. While it is fun to own the best, many will tire of lugging around a big camera, realize that their photography did not take the next step forward, or decide that they invested too much money in a hobby that they do not embellish any longer. These people will wonder why they have a $5500 brick in their bag. This will be good news for some of us who waited, and are willing to buy a previously owned camera
However to your point, the Z6ii/Z7ii will benefit from an improved AF interface, better tracking, better button customization, and software that allows the sensor to find a wider array of eyes. If Nikon could just do these things, the cameras will improve the shooting experience.
In the end, all of the Ai in the world has not magically made the quality of the typical image any better. There are a lot of mediocre (dare I say lousy) photos presented throughout various photography-devoted forums and social media pages. The opportunity to capture a viewer's attention remains intimately linked to three basic factors: The quality of the light + composition nuance + subject. Through my years of experience, the last variable in my "equation" is the least important... I've seen photos of pears and peppers that have held my gaze of long moments only because of the lighting and compositional character.
As Steve likes to say... the most important part of the photographic process lies between the ears.

regards,
bruce

 

[jeffnles1]

Agree but the caveat that 90% of Z9 in the Z7 II would definitely hurt Z9 sales. 75% not much.

Yep, you're probably right about the 90%. However, honestly, 75% of the Z9 would probably put me in a Z ecosystem as long as it was the right 75%. 2 things limiting frame rate would be the processor speed (although the 6 and 7 ii have dual processors, it depends on the architecture and what they have the processors doing), and the bus speed to and from the cards. The fastest cards in the world can only go as fast as the processor and bus will allow them to go.

I would think (hope) button customization and some improvement in AF capability would be software related and a firmware update could address these. To me, button customization and AF capability would be the "right" 75%. I wouldn't expect a 6 of 7 series camera to be the equal of a 9 series any more than I would think a D750 or D780 would be the equal to the D5/6.

Guess at the end of the day what I would really like to see would be a mirrorless equivalent to the D850 or my (much loved) D500.

I realize every photographer has different needs and different photographic styles. I don't need 20+fps. Fact is, 20fps would most likely slow me down in the end to end process as I wade through 2X as many photos to find the keepers. Maybe some small percentage of the time the "keeper" I wanted may have fallen between frames at 10fps where 20fps would have caught it but I cannot imagine that would happen a lot.

Give me 45-50mp sensor, multiple buttons I can customize the way I want, the ability to switch AF modes without diving into menus, 10fps, and snappy AF that locks onto a target quickly and accurately and the other inherent mirrorless benefits (silent shutter, WYSIWYG in the viewfinder, and ability to shoot video without needing to look at the rear LCD panel) and I would be a happy camper.

I agree though that balancing the product mix so as to not skim off the high end models is a tricky business.

 

[TonyB]

Give me 45-50mp sensor, multiple buttons I can customize the way I want, the ability to switch AF modes without diving into menus, 10fps, and snappy AF that locks onto a target quickly and accurately and the other inherent mirrorless benefits (silent shutter, WYSIWYG in the viewfinder, and ability to shoot video without needing to look at the rear LCD panel) and I would be a happy camper.

This describes the Canon R5 pretty well.

 

[GRE]

It'd be nice to just not be forgotten

I'll even be happy with a minor upgrade before the dust settles.

Gary

 

[Roy]

Not knowing anything about how AF technology works and its dependency, all who own a Z6ii or Z7ii are hoping that Nikon releases a firmware update that will deliver fast autofocusing for sports/BIF, etc....but is the hardware in these models even capable of delivering fast AF such as that found in the Sony A1, or Z9?

With Nikon's Z9 advertised AF capability, and if it's good as they say, Nikon already knows what it takes, so the question will a firmware update is all that's needed, or would there need to be a new III model of the Z6/Z7?

Since not everyone can afford a Z9, and some might not like the bulkiness of it, I'd say Nikon would be smart to introduce another camera body with same AF as the Z9.

Unfortunately the already great AF improvement of the Z6/Z7 is probably already near its limits.

 

[jeffnles1]

This describes the Canon R5 pretty well.

Yes it does, all except the mountain of Nikon glass I would have to replace with Canon glass.