Exploring 600mm Lens

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Mommacat said:
Early morning views in better lighting. These are not heavily cropped. Amazing how you can track a bird "over" filling the frame at 600mm with the Nikon 600mm TC! I wish I had more time with it in better lighting, but the morning sun appeared on the last day. I think the combo did great! Amazing setup! :)
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So what are you going to buy?
 
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Mommacat said:
Early morning views in better lighting. These are not heavily cropped. Amazing how you can track a bird "over" filling the frame at 600mm with the Nikon 600mm TC! I wish I had more time with it in better lighting, but the morning sun appeared on the last day. I think the combo did great! Amazing setup! :)
Click to expand...
Beautiful photos!
 
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I guess we all have different opinions and experiences. It's ok to disagree. I was simply stating my findings that the 600pf, when compared to the 300GM with 2x TC was sharper. AF was very close, too close to say there's any significant differences. For me, I prefer the Z8 with latest firmware over the A1 which I shot for 2.5 years. I also prefer the deeper grip and feel build quality is superior. But that's my opinion. Very happy with my choices . Later

arbitrage said:
Yeah, your experience with the 300/2x does sound a good bit different than mine and my two friends who also have the 300. All three of us also own the 600GM. All three of us used to own the 200-600 and all three of us have sold that off at different times in the past. All of us have been very impressed with the 300/2x. One of my friends is maybe a bit less picky/demanding of ultimate IQ/AF as I and my other friend are. Myself and my one friend are really critical of the Sony TC IQ. Neither of us uses the 2x on our 600 and 400GMs and don’t even really like the 1.4x on those two lenses. We mostly shoot them bare lens. Myself the least likely to use any TC on the 600 or 400.

But all of us our happy to use the 2x on the 300GM. The 600GM will focus faster and IQ is better but so far the 300/2x hasn’t held me back from shooting very sharp images of very challenging BIF. The 200-600 suffers from slow AF and inconsistent AF whereas the 300/2x doesn’t suffer like that.

My plan was to buy a Z8 and 600PF as I didn’t have any hope that the 300GM would be good with the 2x. Luckily my friend bought it day one and let me shoot it as otherwise I would never have given it the time of day. It was a strange string of events…I borrow my friend’s Z8/400/4.5 to test Z8 on latest FW and a short time after I get to try the 300GM with the TCs. The Z8 disappointed me just like my two affairs with the Z9 had previously and the 300/2x blew me away. I still think for a 600mm lens the 600PF must be better than the 300/2x but I’m using the 300 at 600 only 50% of the time so that makes it a better choice for me.

As far as exposure on the Z8/9 the histogram can work if the white areas at risk of clipping are large enough in the frame. But for something like the neck band of a Belted KF it won’t show clipping for such a small area of white. I don’t see others complaining about the Z8/9 EVF so I’m certainly on my own not liking it.

The only MILC I'm okay using without a battery grip is the Z8. I can't be comfortable shooting the R5/R5II or any Sony camera without the BG. I wish all cameras were built within the R3 body but with Sony's button/wheel layout.
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Here are my general thoughts based on the Nikon Z9 + 600mm TC rental vs my Sony A1 + Sony 600mm GM rental. I had the Nikon for a week (in lousy weather) and the Sony 5 1/2 days (in beautiful lighting). These are just my personal opinions, and as many say here YMMV.

LENSES
  • VR - Nikon outstanding; Sony ok.
  • Lens foot - Sony slightly longer so slightly more comfortable for handholding for someone who has to attach the foot to their BR strap connector and for holding while walking.
  • Hand-holdability - about the same, but surprisingly even though the Nikon is heavier, it is shorter so I found it easier to maneuver when photographing from low positions or from moving docks.
  • Built-in tele - definitely a plus for the work I do.
  • Customizable lens buttons are reachable by both the thumb and index finger on the Sony but I really had to contort my hand in order to reach one button on the Nikon.

CAMERAS
  • EVF - Sony almost "real like" and I would give them the edge with their blinkies; Nikon workable but not "real like" although the workaround for blinkies is very helpful in the field.
  • AF - Nikon is reliable and stickier even in changing backgrounds. On Sony I can only use Zone or spot, but the Nikon's Auto (similar to Sony's Wide) was so outstanding I could use that for diving birds even in low light situations. Nikon's Auto stays on the bird better than my A1 even around water. It was amazingly reliable and easier to use! Nikon also did a fantastic job finding the eye in difficulty situations. Also, 0 issues finding/tracking a white bird.
  • Buffer - on the Z9 I had no buffer anxiety including when spraying and praying during testing. On my A1, I often play the "wait wait wait" game and hope that I have enough buffer left.
  • Grip - Nikon was more natural and more comfortable for me; on Sony, I always use the battery grip and have to overextend my pinky into the VG to hold the camera.
  • Button customizations - I found the Nikon Z9 to have all the customizations I needed similar to my Sony A1. That said, I do wish it had more buttons on the back of the camera (e.g., AEL button like Sony) that could be customized since I had issues reaching all of the Fn buttons on the front of the Z9.

IMAGE QUALITY - the jury is still out. I have fallen in love with the Sony images the past 2.5 years and loved the attempted fishing views I shared here with the 600mm GM rental. I spent many hours trying/hoping for a similar opportunity when I had the Nikon rental but it wasn't meant to be. This is a huge decision for me given the amount of money. I also wish the EVF was more like Sony's and really don't want to wait over a year for a Z9ii. Perhaps it is best to purchase a used Z9 in the meantime while I wait for the Z9ii. I'll need time to thoroughly review images before deciding.

Thank you all again for your support and help!! Very very much appreciated!!
 
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Good luck. It is a big decision for sure, but you might look at it this way. Base your decision on the glass available instead of the bodies. The camera bodies come and go and are always changing. The lenses should be for the long haul. Take care

Mommacat said:
Here are my general thoughts based on the Nikon Z9 + 600mm TC rental vs my Sony A1 + Sony 600mm GM rental. I had the Nikon for a week (in lousy weather) and the Sony 5 1/2 days (in beautiful lighting). These are just my personal opinions, and as many say here YMMV.

LENSES
  • VR - Nikon outstanding; Sony ok.
  • Lens foot - Sony slightly longer so slightly more comfortable for handholding for someone who has to attach the foot to their BR strap connector and for holding while walking.
  • Hand-holdability - about the same, but surprisingly even though the Nikon is heavier, it is shorter so I found it easier to maneuver when photographing from low positions or from moving docks.
  • Built-in tele - definitely a plus for the work I do.
  • Customizable lens buttons are reachable by both the thumb and index finger on the Sony but I really had to contort my hand in order to reach one button on the Nikon.

CAMERAS
  • EVF - Sony almost "real like" and I would give them the edge with their blinkies; Nikon workable but not "real like" although the workaround for blinkies is very helpful in the field.
  • AF - Nikon is reliable and stickier even in changing backgrounds. On Sony I can only use Zone or spot, but the Nikon's Auto (similar to Sony's Wide) was so outstanding I could use that for diving birds even in low light situations. Nikon's Auto stays on the bird better than my A1 even around water. It was amazingly reliable and easier to use! Nikon also did a fantastic job finding the eye in difficulty situations. Also, 0 issues finding/tracking a white bird.
  • Buffer - on the Z9 I had no buffer anxiety including when spraying and praying during testing. On my A1, I often play the "wait wait wait" game and hope that I have enough buffer left.
  • Grip - Nikon was more natural and more comfortable for me; on Sony, I always use the battery grip and have to overextend my pinky into the VG to hold the camera.
  • Button customizations - I found the Nikon Z9 to have all the customizations I needed similar to my Sony A1. That said, I do wish it had more buttons on the back of the camera (e.g., AEL button like Sony) that could be customized since I had issues reaching all of the Fn buttons on the front of the Z9.

IMAGE QUALITY - the jury is still out. I have fallen in love with the Sony images the past 2.5 years and loved the attempted fishing views I shared here with the 600mm GM rental. I spent many hours trying/hoping for a similar opportunity when I had the Nikon rental but it wasn't meant to be. This is a huge decision for me given the amount of money. I also wish the EVF was more like Sony's and really don't want to wait over a year for a Z9ii. Perhaps it is best to purchase a used Z9 in the meantime while I wait for the Z9ii. I'll need time to thoroughly review images before deciding.

Thank you all again for your support and help!! Very very much appreciated!!
Click to expand...
 
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Mommacat said:
Here are my general thoughts based on the Nikon Z9 + 600mm TC rental vs my Sony A1 + Sony 600mm GM rental. I had the Nikon for a week (in lousy weather) and the Sony 5 1/2 days (in beautiful lighting). These are just my personal opinions, and as many say here YMMV.

LENSES
  • VR - Nikon outstanding; Sony ok.
  • Lens foot - Sony slightly longer so slightly more comfortable for handholding for someone who has to attach the foot to their BR strap connector and for holding while walking.
  • Hand-holdability - about the same, but surprisingly even though the Nikon is heavier, it is shorter so I found it easier to maneuver when photographing from low positions or from moving docks.
  • Built-in tele - definitely a plus for the work I do.
  • Customizable lens buttons are reachable by both the thumb and index finger on the Sony but I really had to contort my hand in order to reach one button on the Nikon.

CAMERAS
  • EVF - Sony almost "real like" and I would give them the edge with their blinkies; Nikon workable but not "real like" although the workaround for blinkies is very helpful in the field.
  • AF - Nikon is reliable and stickier even in changing backgrounds. On Sony I can only use Zone or spot, but the Nikon's Auto (similar to Sony's Wide) was so outstanding I could use that for diving birds even in low light situations. Nikon's Auto stays on the bird better than my A1 even around water. It was amazingly reliable and easier to use! Nikon also did a fantastic job finding the eye in difficulty situations. Also, 0 issues finding/tracking a white bird.
  • Buffer - on the Z9 I had no buffer anxiety including when spraying and praying during testing. On my A1, I often play the "wait wait wait" game and hope that I have enough buffer left.
  • Grip - Nikon was more natural and more comfortable for me; on Sony, I always use the battery grip and have to overextend my pinky into the VG to hold the camera.
  • Button customizations - I found the Nikon Z9 to have all the customizations I needed similar to my Sony A1. That said, I do wish it had more buttons on the back of the camera (e.g., AEL button like Sony) that could be customized since I had issues reaching all of the Fn buttons on the front of the Z9.

IMAGE QUALITY - the jury is still out. I have fallen in love with the Sony images the past 2.5 years and loved the attempted fishing views I shared here with the 600mm GM rental. I spent many hours trying/hoping for a similar opportunity when I had the Nikon rental but it wasn't meant to be. This is a huge decision for me given the amount of money. I also wish the EVF was more like Sony's and really don't want to wait over a year for a Z9ii. Perhaps it is best to purchase a used Z9 in the meantime while I wait for the Z9ii. I'll need time to thoroughly review images before deciding.

Thank you all again for your support and help!! Very very much appreciated!!
Click to expand...
Great summary and thoughts.

When you've had trouble with Sony Wide AF mode before were you using it the Tracking version or the regular version?
If you do end up sticking to Sony for a while (like maybe till Z9II arrives) I would ask you to try Sony Wide regular version without the Tracking on. Wide+Tracking isn't great for most things. Nikon's Auto AF is better. But I shoot Wide (no tracking) for 80-90% of all my BIF work with the A1. I find it phenomenal for all sorts of crazy BIF from swallows to diving kingfishers to diving osprey, you name it. I've shot chickadees and nuthatches in straight on flight agains busy backgrounds by using Wide (no tracking). I've yet to find another AF mode from Sony, Canon or Nikon that can perform as good as the A1's Wide mode. Anyways, if you do keep shooting the A1 give that a try. Otherwise sounds like you have had great success with Nikon's Auto AF. I found Nikon's Auto AF to be much, much improved on the latest FW (it was next to useless on Z9 FW 1.0-3.0) but still couldn't hold a bird as stable as Sony's Wide, it would acquire and then lose it halfway through and then acquire again. This was with a Bufflehead duck coming angled towards me.
 
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I would often use Zone and switch between Wide area AF without tracking for BIF with the A1. I also had a button configured to enable Tracking overide when needed. That said , I feel the Z8 with FW 2.0 does at a least as good, and better in some situations ( can be stickier at times) I do feel the Bird Eye mode is more precise in the Nikon , truly focusing on the eye when the A1 didn't. Often I would find that A1 AF bird 📳 to be imprecise, and I've heard other members on FM forum making same claim. I am not seeing this issue as often with the Z8. Then again, I'm probably not shooting insanely fast birds like you do, so it doesn't really matter all that much to me. In the end I am getting the same photos with my Z8 that I did with the A1, but with the lense I really wanted (600pf). Again, these are soley my opinions. Tyl

arbitrage said:
Great summary and thoughts.

When you've had trouble with Sony Wide AF mode before were you using it the Tracking version or the regular version?
If you do end up sticking to Sony for a while (like maybe till Z9II arrives) I would ask you to try Sony Wide regular version without the Tracking on. Wide+Tracking isn't great for most things. Nikon's Auto AF is better. But I shoot Wide (no tracking) for 80-90% of all my BIF work with the A1. I find it phenomenal for all sorts of crazy BIF from swallows to diving kingfishers to diving osprey, you name it. I've shot chickadees and nuthatches in straight on flight agains busy backgrounds by using Wide (no tracking). I've yet to find another AF mode from Sony, Canon or Nikon that can perform as good as the A1's Wide mode. Anyways, if you do keep shooting the A1 give that a try. Otherwise sounds like you have had great success with Nikon's Auto AF. I found Nikon's Auto AF to be much, much improved on the latest FW (it was next to useless on Z9 FW 1.0-3.0) but still couldn't hold a bird as stable as Sony's Wide, it would acquire and then lose it halfway through and then acquire again. This was with a Bufflehead duck coming angled towards me.
Click to expand...
 
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maxxus46 said:
Good luck. It is a big decision for sure, but you might look at it this way. Base your decision on the glass available instead of the bodies. The camera bodies come and go and are always changing. The lenses should be for the long haul. Take care
Click to expand...
Totally agree, @maxxus46! It is hard to beat the Nikon 600mm with a built-in tele! It's too bad Sony doesn't have one.
 
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arbitrage said:
Great summary and thoughts.

When you've had trouble with Sony Wide AF mode before were you using it the Tracking version or the regular version?
If you do end up sticking to Sony for a while (like maybe till Z9II arrives) I would ask you to try Sony Wide regular version without the Tracking on. Wide+Tracking isn't great for most things. Nikon's Auto AF is better. But I shoot Wide (no tracking) for 80-90% of all my BIF work with the A1. I find it phenomenal for all sorts of crazy BIF from swallows to diving kingfishers to diving osprey, you name it. I've shot chickadees and nuthatches in straight on flight agains busy backgrounds by using Wide (no tracking). I've yet to find another AF mode from Sony, Canon or Nikon that can perform as good as the A1's Wide mode. Anyways, if you do keep shooting the A1 give that a try. Otherwise sounds like you have had great success with Nikon's Auto AF. I found Nikon's Auto AF to be much, much improved on the latest FW (it was next to useless on Z9 FW 1.0-3.0) but still couldn't hold a bird as stable as Sony's Wide, it would acquire and then lose it halfway through and then acquire again. This was with a Bufflehead duck coming angled towards me.
Click to expand...
Thank you, @arbitrage! I don't use tracking on my A1. It's been a long time but I'll try it again. Thank you!
 
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Mommacat said:
Thank you, @arbitrage! I don't use tracking on my A1. It's been a long time but I'll try it again. Thank you!
Click to expand...
If you aren't using Tracking then that is good. I'm saying my experience is much better without Tracking. Just plain old Wide (1st choice on the list) is my go to for all BIF. Zone AF occasionally.
I only use the tracking modes for perched birds some of the time with a smaller Flex Spot AF mode or Small Spot AF mode.
 
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maxxus46 said:
In the end I am getting the same photos with my Z8 that I did with the A1, but with the lense I really wanted (600pf). Again, these are soley my opinions. Tyl
Click to expand...
For sure. Everything is so good these days. Just best to go with what makes you happy!!
I'd be in pure bliss if I could mount a Z400TC and 600PF onto a future A1II. But the physics of mount size will never allow that to happen.
I will for sure be testing the Z9II or Z8II whenever they come out to see if I'm happy enough with them to take the dive back to Nikon for the 400TC.
 
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