If nikon can not give us 30 FPS in Raw

[RichF]

shooting 30mph dogs in action at 20fps, there is still a lot of space between shots. while, yes, faster isn't important for most people i can say faster *is* better for some shooting scenarios.

how far is 1/20s?

View attachment 39603

this far:

View attachment 39604

(i really hate the 1200px limit)

I agree though I use 30 fps and suffer through raw

 

[BillW]

I'd love to see 30 fps with raw, even if only HE raw *.

For my shooting, I'd even more like to see precapture extended to raw, even if only HE Raw* and even if it has to be a bit more limited in number of frames than the jpeg precapture for C30 and C120.

 

[Chris K]

shooting 30mph dogs in action at 20fps, there is still a lot of space between shots. while, yes, faster isn't important for most people i can say faster *is* better for some shooting scenarios.

how far is 1/20s?

30mph is 44 feet per second. Here’s the distance a dog would travel at various frame rates:

8fps = 5.5 feet
15fps = 3 feet
20fps = 2 feet
30fps = 1.5 feet
120fps = 4 inches

Note that the apparent distance the dog travels would be less if the dog was moving at less than a 90° angle to the camera.

The last time I shot fast dogs I was using a 7D. 8fps was enough to get the shot with running dogs, but I sometimes wished I had more for dogs fetching or hunting. I sometimes had better luck anticipating the shot than relying on 8fps when trying to get the pose I wanted when a frisbee or bird was involved.

Playing with frame rates, I don’t find that much difference in my end results between 15, 20, and 30fps. More is always better, but if 15fps isn’t enough, 30fps generally isn’t, either.

Now, at 120fps I can pretty much pick the exact moment in time I want. 120fps is a totally different ballgame for very fast action. I just need more lens to shoot it, because ”cropability” is limited.

Somebody give me 120fps RAW. I’ll buy four CFE cards and the camera can interleave them.

 

[PeggyBaker]

Photo Mechanic is fun for culling all those extra frames. I'm importing a lot fewer pictures when I use it to make the first cut.

 

[John Navitsky]

30mph is 44 feet per second. Here’s the distance a dog would travel at various frame rates:

8fps = 5.5 feet
15fps = 3 feet
20fps = 2 feet
30fps = 1.5 feet
120fps = 4 inches

exactly. i don't think people realize this until you do the math.

fwiw, this exercise is very useful for people to visualize shutter speed. of course, relative shutter speed is the key bit, but it still puts perspective on things.

ditto how hard an af system needs to work to keep that dog in focus while it's running or jumping toward you.

 

[Chris K]

I wish my Z9 allowed me to configure any button to change drive mode. I switch between CL8, CH20, and C120 a lot, and shooting with a telephoto makes reaching the top-left dial a royal pain without losing my framing.

I’d love to get some “safety frames of a perched bird at CH20, and then quickly switch to C30 or C120 to get some pre-capture action shots. I’ve also missed some good pre-capture opportunities when I noticed the bird was going to do something interesting, and decided to stick with CH20 instead of risk losing the moment when switching.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

That is an image to be jealous of. Fanatastic!!!

I agree that there will be creep in desire. If you have a boat, you have 2' itis (want a new boat 2 feet longer). For lenses, it is either 100mm longer or 2mm wider. For camera bodies, as you say another xx FPS either in stills or video.

How did you get the king fisher diving? Knowing exactly where to focus or was it skill and some luck?

100% skill of course.........
Shoot held at Otterbourne Hides & Studio - Hampshire, England, UK. Images shot with Nikon Z9+400/2.8E-FL+TC14 and a Nikon Z7+70-200/2.8+1.4TC.
Obviously we baited the pond (technically a large bowl) with tiny local river fish, set a perch/branch for the bird to use; prefocused on the centre of the bowl and waited.
This image was shot at 560 mm 1/5000th sec at f/7.1 Exposure Bias -1 EV - ISO 3200 - 120 fps 11mp
Ideally I would have shot at 1/10,000th or faster and with a slightly more closed down aperture f/8-f/11 but the light was far from good. So- it was all I could do to shoot deliberately dark and recover 1+ stops in post.
The flickr album of some of the output from the shoot can be seen here Album -- you will note that the use of 120fps was the final attempt of the day - I had tried just about every other option available to me on the Z9 and simply could not get "the shot" - sure shots of the birds coming out of the water with fish in their bills, on the branch, on the branch eating the fish -- but not the shot of the bill just pressing on the surface of the water. My simple maths prove to me that the bird moved about 0.6mm while the exposure was taken

 

[BillW]

I wish my Z9 allowed me to configure any button to change drive mode. I switch between CL8, CH20, and C120 a lot, and shooting with a telephoto makes reaching the top-left dial a royal pain without losing my framing.

I’d love to get some “safety frames of a perched bird at CH20, and then quickly switch to C30 or C120 to get some pre-capture action shots. I’ve also missed some good pre-capture opportunities when I noticed the bird was going to do something interesting, and decided to stick with CH20 instead of risk losing the moment when switching.

While you can set frame rate in recall shooting functions, it tops out at C20 in RSF and will not get you to C30 or C120 to start precapture. I would very much like to be able to set precapture using RSF.

As to changing drive mode, I set the left dial to Quick release mode selection, so I do not have to unlock the dial when I want to change it. I then set the custom setting f#6 (don’t know if this number changed in firmware 2.0, I hear that some menu items changed their numbers) so you can press that left dial button, let it go, and still turn the command dial to change frame rate. Makes it a bit easier if your left hand is holding a longer telephoto. But especially when using a longer telephoto, there is no single right hand way that I have found to make the change (other than RSF which won’t pick up C30 or C120), not even the i-Menu (which in contrast to the Z6/Z6II/Z7/Z7II does not include drive mode).

 

[RichF]

100% skill of course.........
Shoot held at Otterbourne Hides & Studio - Hampshire, England, UK. Images shot with Nikon Z9+400/2.8E-FL+TC14 and a Nikon Z7+70-200/2.8+1.4TC.
Obviously we baited the pond (technically a large bowl) with tiny local river fish, set a perch/branch for the bird to use; prefocused on the centre of the bowl and waited.
This image was shot at 560 mm 1/5000th sec at f/7.1 Exposure Bias -1 EV - ISO 3200 - 120 fps 11mp
Ideally I would have shot at 1/10,000th or faster and with a slightly more closed down aperture f/8-f/11 but the light was far from good. So- it was all I could do to shoot deliberately dark and recover 1+ stops in post.
The flickr album of some of the output from the shoot can be seen here Album -- you will note that the use of 120fps was the final attempt of the day - I had tried just about every other option available to me on the Z9 and simply could not get "the shot" - sure shots of the birds coming out of the water with fish in their bills, on the branch, on the branch eating the fish -- but not the shot of the bill just pressing on the surface of the water. My simple maths prove to me that the bird moved about 0.6mm while the exposure was taken

Great and creative setup. Very well done. As long as you are setting up the shot, adding flood lights might help you lower the ISO or increase the shutter speed and DOF.

 

[Alistair]

If it is that important get the A1

Thanks. I am aware of the A1. Fantastic camera, in particular the AF tracking as I understand it. But not the platform for me.

 

[Chris K]

While you can set frame rate in recall shooting functions, it tops out at C20 in RSF and will not get you to C30 or C120 to start precapture. I would very much like to be able to set precapture using RSF.

As to changing drive mode, I set the left dial to Quick release mode selection, so I do not have to unlock the dial when I want to change it. I then set the custom setting f#6 (don’t know if this number changed in firmware 2.0, I hear that some menu items changed their numbers) so you can press that left dial button, let it go, and still turn the command dial to change frame rate. Makes it a bit easier if your left hand is holding a longer telephoto. But especially when using a longer telephoto, there is no single right hand way that I have found to make the change (other than RSF which won’t pick up C30 or C120), not even the i-Menu (which in contrast to the Z6/Z6II/Z7/Z7II does not include drive mode).

Thanks for the tips. Changing the mode is more important to me than the FPS in CH or CL, cause I’m mostly going between CH20 and the pre-capture modes. I thought RSF might save the day, but you’re right; it won’t change modes.

Using the “don’t have to hold the button” setting is a good idea. That would definitely make the finger gymnastics easier. I really do like the hold-and-release method, but if we don’t get a firmware update to let us get into pre-capture quickly, I might have to do that.

Thanks again, Bill!

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

Great and creative setup. Very well done. As long as you are setting up the shot, adding flood lights might help you lower the ISO or increase the shutter speed and DOF.

Thanks- my plan is to return to the same place in the summer after they have hatched their eggs, when the sun is higher. I also spoke to the owner about some creative tree work. I have a Profoto B10 with a telephoto light modified, grid and snood that I was planning to use, but there is no power at the spot so I would need a lot of batteries etc..

 

[Ken Miracle]

I have throttled back from 20 to 15 fps almost all of the time.

 

[jeffnles1]

RichF -- it really depends on what you are shooting and how important the "timing of that shot is".

After 8 failed attempts at 20fps and 30fps I took the following at 120fps. But 1/5000th was just not quick enough.
We will find out how in a firmware update just far Nikon can address the CLAMOUR from Z9 users now we have access to 20fps to more and more RAW shooting options.
AND we will then hear more and louder clamour from Video shooters for 240fps at some kinda resolution presumably higher than 1080p.
Most of my shoots are at 3fps. But with Shooting Recall Hold 20fps is just a button press away.

https://flic.kr/p/2n3FAwx

I really like that image Andy. Wow. One thing I don't understand is the ripple ring spreading out from the bird. Was that from a fish that had just surfaced? It couldn't have been from the bird diving unless it was dripping from a prior dive?

At any rate, it's a great image. I like it a lot.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I really like that image Andy. Wow. One thing I don't understand is the ripple ring spreading out from the bird. Was that from a fish that had just surfaced? It couldn't have been from the bird diving unless it was dripping from a prior dive?

At any rate, it's a great image. I like it a lot.

Hi — the top of the bait bowl is visible - we provide 20-30 very small river fish in a 8-10” diameter repository that sits in a pond for the birds to catch - this allowed me to shoot very tight manually prefocussed on the centre of the bowl. Baiting a relatively small but deep container is the only way to secure such clean images and is perfectly safe for the birds. My issue was the light and the need to increase the shutter speed by x2 or x4 to reduce the motion blur at 1/5000th and reduce the ISO.

 

[HRB]

In my view it's a curve of diminishing returns. Once you have 5 fps the next 5 is not as important as the first 5, and the next 5 after that even less important, and on and on.

Sometimes I wonder if the # of frames before you press the shutter aren’t more important…

 

[jeffnles1]

Hi — the top of the bait bowl is visible - we provide 20-30 very small river fish in a 8-10” diameter repository that sits in a pond for the birds to catch - this allowed me to shoot very tight manually prefocussed on the centre of the bowl. Baiting a relatively small but deep container is the only way to secure such clean images and is perfectly safe for the birds. My issue was the light and the need to increase the shutter speed by x2 or x4 to reduce the motion blur at 1/5000th and reduce the ISO.

that is a pretty cool way to get the shot. I like the idea.

 

[Roy]

How about 24 FPS. I believe the clock in the system is 120 hertz.

30 FPS is 4 cycles
20 FPS is 6 cycles

24 FPS would be 5 cycles.

Like to see high speed bumped up to 24 FPS and pre-capture added. Please Nikon ...

I dont need more than 20fps.
I'd be happier if Nikon gave us 16bit still images...

 

[John Navitsky]

I dont need more than 20fps.
I'd be happier if Nikon gave us 16bit still images...

ooh, i’d be down for more dynamic range

 

[O]

How about 24 FPS. I believe the clock in the system is 120 hertz.

30 FPS is 4 cycles
20 FPS is 6 cycles

24 FPS would be 5 cycles.

Like to see high speed bumped up to 24 FPS and pre-capture added. Please Nikon ...

1st comes light
2nd comes focus
3rd comes exposure
4th comes speed

a camera only provides a record of what you see using (time light and speed) in an infinite number of combinations to suite the need.

I think that before asking for Number 4 more speed, maybe we should ask for number 2 to be perfect or better, as with out correct or good focus nothing else matters.

 

[O]

I dont need more than 20fps.
I'd be happier if Nikon gave us 16bit still images...

Agreed, i think on the D3X D850 the blacks are 16 bit unless i misunderstood.

With the large lens mount dia its the gateway for Crooped sensor size in medium format then we could see full 16 bit?

 

[O]

I used the Z9 at 20 FPS yesterday and am still going through my files. I'm ready to go back to my manual-wind FM with 24 or 36 exposure film!

Hear you loud and clear, 20 fps......... the novelty has worn off LOL i am back to 5 10 12 FPS and even that's to much at times, i can understand 20-30-120 fps is great for a specific application......but gee whiz i was spending to much time sitting behind a desk.

I am hearing stills are coming from video on the Z9..........interesting......and the recent update was mostly for video...........

If you look at lenses like the new 400 its pricing level is inline with expensive video lenses.........

 

[bleirer]

Agreed, i think on the D3X D850 the blacks are 16 bit unless i misunderstood.

With the large lens mount dia its the gateway for Crooped sensor size in medium format then we could see full 16 bit?

The specs say 12 or 14 bit selectable.

 

[Viathelens]

For birds you might need more speed but I'm finding 20fps to be crazy fast for what I'm photographing in Yellowstone and Teton NP's, fox, wolves, bear and some birds. I ended up with wayyyy too many images until I realized what was happening and a lot of them were the exact same image over and over because the camera is so fast. I don't need more fps. I would like it if the animal recognition were a little quicker though and if it followed through more accurately so I vote for that first!

 

[O]

30mph is 44 feet per second. Here’s the distance a dog would travel at various frame rates:

8fps = 5.5 feet
15fps = 3 feet
20fps = 2 feet
30fps = 1.5 feet
120fps = 4 inches

Note that the apparent distance the dog travels would be less if the dog was moving at less than a 90° angle to the camera.

The last time I shot fast dogs I was using a 7D. 8fps was enough to get the shot with running dogs, but I sometimes wished I had more for dogs fetching or hunting. I sometimes had better luck anticipating the shot than relying on 8fps when trying to get the pose I wanted when a frisbee or bird was involved.

Playing with frame rates, I don’t find that much difference in my end results between 15, 20, and 30fps. More is always better, but if 15fps isn’t enough, 30fps generally isn’t, either.

Now, at 120fps I can pretty much pick the exact moment in time I want. 120fps is a totally different ballgame for very fast action. I just need more lens to shoot it, because ”cropability” is limited.

Somebody give me 120fps RAW. I’ll buy four CFE cards and the camera can interleave them.

Amazing information on dogs and speed thank you.......
Interesting.........120fps that's so fast, it has its application i guess, but as you say no real crop ability, Nikon should have in a flag ship like the Z9 put in more horsepower ie: two processors, i guess they will have a reason to do it when we all buy the Z9 II or III.
I think taking teh perfect still from video is on the door step so we should learn to become videographers.......there are people already doing it i am told.....and very successfully, that also means anyone who can hold a video camera is a winner.....no need to skill sets in photography any more, is that the new sales growth market for the industry..

Personally i find the the Z8 with 12 fps and 60 mp would be my preferred choice of camera over the Z9.............then again the visual difference between 45 mp and 60 mp isn't a great deal at this resolution level. but gee the body will be smaller and lighter, oh no, then we will want to buy a grip with big battery oh no we are now the same weight and size as a Z9, LOL .................and the wheel goes round, however the benefit of a Z8 is when not using the grip we have a great small light camera with lots of crop ability, the focus system should be on par with the Z9 ?

Speed and glass go hand in hand............there goes that new car LOL.........

Certainly 12 fps to 15 fps is a real sweet spot, like you say so many images are the same so in their i feel what is a perception or the reality of benefit to consider, will we ever be happy LOL.

The Z9 is defiantly a versatile speed demon, i don't use the tracking unless in ideal simple conditions.........if at all.

When the A9 first came out Sony Australia lent me a unit with glass to play with, as ignorant as i was i gave it a red hot go, i soon dialed it back from 20 fps to 10 even way back then, but for fast action birds yes the 20 fps was good.

The world she is a changing...............buckle up for a white knuckle ride ............