Long lenses and heat distortion

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Diffraction has been more of a problem, even with a f/4 lens when using a 2x teleconverter. Shooting in DX mode may help when this occurs. With longer lenses and increase image magnification any environmental issues or shortcomings of equipment or technique are magnified as well.
 
I would then imagine the temperture differencial on a really hot day might work the same. I wonder if putting white on the lenshood might help in hot weather - thanks!
The temperature differential inside a lens hood can happen because we take the camera & lens from comfortable air temps to ambient which in summer & winter is very warmer or colder. Let the kit adjust to ambient conditions before shooting with it. A white covering on the hood might help somewhat, but consider shooting without it, too.
 
I learned about the "Mirage Monster" one day at an air show. All of my pictures of the B-17 Taxiing showed wavy bottoms on the fuselage from the heat on the runway surface. It was reinforced the day a flight of F-22s were doing an "around the valley" flyover. They were following a nearby Highway at about 1500 feet. It was about 1 P.M. on a warm and sunny day. I got a few fair shots, because they were some distance away, and when I enlarged them, The aircraft were 'WAVY" from the unstable air rising from the pavement. The same can be said of any photography genre... some surfaces are worse than others...just anorher one of those things that makes us think we chose the wrong passion!:)
 
A question that came to mind today based on earlier conversations: is heat distortion a multiplicative function, and additive one, a limiting one, or some combination?

For instance, say that for some made up measure of sharpness a given 500pf gives you 50 units of sharpness in ideal conditions and the 180-600 gives 45.

Now say that there is a certain level of heat distortion. Which of the following is the way it works:

A) (Multiplicative) This particular heat distortion costs 20% of sharpness, so the 500pf now gives 40 units and the 180-600 gives 36.

B) (Additive) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units, so the 500pf is now at 45 and the 180-600 is at 40.

C) (Limiting) This particular heat distortion limits sharpness to a level of 42 units, so now both lenses produce about the same results.

D) (Combination) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units and yields a maximum value of 43, so the 180-600 is now at 40 sharpness while the 500pf is at 43.
 
A question that came to mind today based on earlier conversations: is heat distortion a multiplicative function, and additive one, a limiting one, or some combination?

For instance, say that for some made up measure of sharpness a given 500pf gives you 50 units of sharpness in ideal conditions and the 180-600 gives 45.

Now say that there is a certain level of heat distortion. Which of the following is the way it works:

A) (Multiplicative) This particular heat distortion costs 20% of sharpness, so the 500pf now gives 40 units and the 180-600 gives 36.

B) (Additive) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units, so the 500pf is now at 45 and the 180-600 is at 40.

C) (Limiting) This particular heat distortion limits sharpness to a level of 42 units, so now both lenses produce about the same results.

D) (Combination) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units and yields a maximum value of 43, so the 180-600 is now at 40 sharpness while the 500pf is at 43.
Interesting question. I think the only way to answer it with certainty is through testing. However, sharpness is subjective, which complicates the analysis.
 
A question that came to mind today based on earlier conversations: is heat distortion a multiplicative function, and additive one, a limiting one, or some combination?

For instance, say that for some made up measure of sharpness a given 500pf gives you 50 units of sharpness in ideal conditions and the 180-600 gives 45.

Now say that there is a certain level of heat distortion. Which of the following is the way it works:

A) (Multiplicative) This particular heat distortion costs 20% of sharpness, so the 500pf now gives 40 units and the 180-600 gives 36.

B) (Additive) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units, so the 500pf is now at 45 and the 180-600 is at 40.

C) (Limiting) This particular heat distortion limits sharpness to a level of 42 units, so now both lenses produce about the same results.

D) (Combination) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units and yields a maximum value of 43, so the 180-600 is now at 40 sharpness while the 500pf is at 43.

A, B, C, or D, the atmospheric distortion far outweighs the relatively minuscule differences between the lenses. For myself it means pack up the camera and try again another time.
 
When heat distortion looks like it might be a problem, I often try shooting bursts, even of static subjects. It seems to me that atmospheric distortion is not constant and when I shoot a burst I sometimes get a few images that are sharper than the others.
I agree with Bill, that shooting in bursts can help somewhat when heat distortion conditions exist. Currently shooting eagles out over the oyster beds is in full swing, but it only takes a few hours of the sun heating up the oyster beds and shooting is really hampered by the distortion. On my last day out shooting in this environment I noticed that no all of my shots were affected with the heat distortion, it seemed like I would get a few good sharp images out of a burst of shots, which made me a believer of shooting in bursts when encountering these conditions.
 
One thing regarding heat distortion: it is part of the subject we photograph. And as such, I don't think it negatively impacts the sharpness at all. It reduces sharpness of an ideal subject, ignoring environmental circumstances. We do take pictures of subjects and the environment so. You don't want that, shoot in a studio, there will still be environmental impacts, but they can be better controlled.

That being said, sharpness is overrated anyway.
 
A question that came to mind today based on earlier conversations: is heat distortion a multiplicative function, and additive one, a limiting one, or some combination?

For instance, say that for some made up measure of sharpness a given 500pf gives you 50 units of sharpness in ideal conditions and the 180-600 gives 45.

Now say that there is a certain level of heat distortion. Which of the following is the way it works:

A) (Multiplicative) This particular heat distortion costs 20% of sharpness, so the 500pf now gives 40 units and the 180-600 gives 36.

B) (Additive) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units, so the 500pf is now at 45 and the 180-600 is at 40.

C) (Limiting) This particular heat distortion limits sharpness to a level of 42 units, so now both lenses produce about the same results.

D) (Combination) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units and yields a maximum value of 43, so the 180-600 is now at 40 sharpness while the 500pf is at 43.
Well, the real answer is that it is usually calculated as a convolution of the corresponding kennel function(s) over the signal in the spatial domain - which is each sort of a sum of multiplications using a 2D sliding window. That happens to be like the complex multiplication (phase and amplitude) in the frequency domain... But I'm not sure if this is a helpful reply although reasonably accurate :)

Resolution is often measured as the frequency where e.g. "half the contrast" remains (MTF50). You can multiply two values at the same frequency to get the combination of two "transfer functions" at that frequency, but the new MTF50 will be the frequency where the two individual transfer functions multiple now end up being 50% - so it's not just multiplying two MTF50 values together, nor adding them somehow.

In this particular case, the heat distortion will most often be dominant, so there will be only small benefits from a better lens when the conditions get bad.
 
Well, the real answer is that it is usually calculated as a convolution of the corresponding kennel function(s) over the signal in the spatial domain - which is each sort of a sum of multiplications using a 2D sliding window. That happens to be like the complex multiplication (phase and amplitude) in the frequency domain... But I'm not sure if this is a helpful reply although reasonably accurate :)

Resolution is often measured as the frequency where e.g. "half the contrast" remains (MTF50). You can multiply two values at the same frequency to get the combination of two "transfer functions" at that frequency, but the new MTF50 will be the frequency where the two individual transfer functions multiple now end up being 50% - so it's not just multiplying two MTF50 values together, nor adding them somehow.

In this particular case, the heat distortion will most often be dominant, so there will be only smallv benefits from a better lens when the conditions get bad.
i am not sure I understood any of that except the last sentence.
My photo buddy and I have been running real world comparisons between his 600mm pf with teleconverter and my well-loved 800mm pf. We both have encountered a lot of atmospheric issues lately. Looking at results dealing with atmospherics I think the 800 has done slightly better. But that may be due to t’he fact that I shoot at 20 fps a lot while he rarely goes that fast. I tend also to have a heavy trigger finger so I end up with many more images to choose from.

My overall conclusion is to pack it up and go home. We need To stop sleeping in and start heading out early so we are on site at the crack of dawn.

My buddy complains he is an old man and this is a hard life. I tell him to stop whining and Man Up.

We have a lot of fun.:):):):):)
 
A question that came to mind today based on earlier conversations: is heat distortion a multiplicative function, and additive one, a limiting one, or some combination?

For instance, say that for some made up measure of sharpness a given 500pf gives you 50 units of sharpness in ideal conditions and the 180-600 gives 45.

Now say that there is a certain level of heat distortion. Which of the following is the way it works:

A) (Multiplicative) This particular heat distortion costs 20% of sharpness, so the 500pf now gives 40 units and the 180-600 gives 36.

B) (Additive) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units, so the 500pf is now at 45 and the 180-600 is at 40.

C) (Limiting) This particular heat distortion limits sharpness to a level of 42 units, so now both lenses produce about the same results.

D) (Combination) This particular heat distortion costs 5 units and yields a maximum value of 43, so the 180-600 is now at 40 sharpness while the 500pf is at 43.

I'd say in practical terms it is C. It could be one of the others but the shots are worthless no matter what lens you are using. Stop shooting and go do something more productive instead of wasting your time.
 
i am not sure I understood any of that except the last sentence.
My photo buddy and I have been running real world comparisons between his 600mm pf with teleconverter and my well-loved 800mm pf. We both have encountered a lot of atmospheric issues lately. Looking at results dealing with atmospherics I think the 800 has done slightly better. But that may be due to t’he fact that I shoot at 20 fps a lot while he rarely goes that fast. I tend also to have a heavy trigger finger so I end up with many more images to choose from.

My overall conclusion is to pack it up and go home. We need To stop sleeping in and start heading out early so we are on site at the crack of dawn.

My buddy complains he is an old man and this is a hard life. I tell him to stop whining and Man Up.

We have a lot of fun.:):):):):)
Well, I guess the key message anywas was that "it's complicated" and not something you can easily calculate by multiplying two numbers :cool:

Your 800mm pf likely (slightly) outresolves the 600mm pf w/1.4 extender in the best conditions (according to PL at least, but it sounds reasonable to me).

However, as you say, given a strong heat haze, taking more images is like buying more lottery tickets :) You have a better chance of getting at least one reasonable shot and that's also my experience: I can only directly compare the 600mm pf bare to the 600mm pf w/1.4 TC and the 200-500mm f/5.6 (I don't have the the 800mm pf). The 600mm pf is super sharp, and even if my particular 200-500mm does pretty well even at 500mm wide open, it's not as sharp. Comparing the 600mm bare at closer distances with the 600mm w/1.4 TC at a longer distance shows you loose some resolution in good conditions. But when shooting in heat haze, the differences often becomes marginal between those lenses/combinations.
 
I don't understand how shooting bursts would help in a atmospheric distortion situation. The air is wobbly for every shot, no? It's not like the lens or camera is doing something wrong, it is taking an accurate image of what is really there in the world- an object behind a lot of wobbly air.
 
I'd say in practical terms it is C. It could be one of the others but the shots are worthless no matter what lens you are using. Stop shooting and go do something more productive instead of wasting your time.
I agree, but frankly lately I've been finding this means never photographing anything. I know all the theories and suggestions about avoiding it, but I don't know if it's where I live or what it's like I can't escape it.

If I go out very early in the morning before there's really any light at all, I can take clean photos but it's still too dark to do much and the lighting is dull and boring anyways. As soon as there's any sunlight at all, I start seeing the sharpness plummet and everything is a muddy mess. The very low sun that gives gorgeous dramatic early morning lighting? This is the time you're supposed to shoot in to get clean shots - but when I see this light it's too late.

The same in the evening. Close to sunset is supposed to be the other time to get around the haze, but I don't see it disappear until it's truly dark.

Elevate off the ground a bit, or shoot in the sky if it's really bad are other things that you hear a lot. No change.

So I've been wondering more about any value of higher end lenses in trying to deal with it.
 
One thing regarding heat distortion: it is part of the subject we photograph. And as such, I don't think it negatively impacts the sharpness at all. It reduces sharpness of an ideal subject, ignoring environmental circumstances. We do take pictures of subjects and the environment so. You don't want that, shoot in a studio, there will still be environmental impacts, but they can be better controlled.

That being said, sharpness is overrated anyway.
If we were talking about something that reproduced what we'd see if we were there I might agree, but there's something about haze of this sort that you don't usually see with the naked eye but it captured in a photo so that the photo looks very unlike the true scene. I've even found that shooting video and photosnside by side when there is this kind of distortion that the video doesn't look all that different from what you see with your eye but the photos do.
 
Well, the real answer is that it is usually calculated as a convolution of the corresponding kennel function(s) over the signal in the spatial domain - which is each sort of a sum of multiplications using a 2D sliding window. That happens to be like the complex multiplication (phase and amplitude) in the frequency domain... But I'm not sure if this is a helpful reply although reasonably accurate :)

Resolution is often measured as the frequency where e.g. "half the contrast" remains (MTF50). You can multiply two values at the same frequency to get the combination of two "transfer functions" at that frequency, but the new MTF50 will be the frequency where the two individual transfer functions multiple now end up being 50% - so it's not just multiplying two MTF50 values together, nor adding them somehow.

In this particular case, the heat distortion will most often be dominant, so there will be only small benefits from a better lens when the conditions get bad.
Say, what?!
 
Pictures never look like what we see with our Mk I eyeballs anyway, never did. Let's rephrase it: heat distortion is part of the intended subject in its environment as the camera and lens captured it. I don't have a problem with that. And not being a pro earbing my living of my pictures, if I don't have a usable one from a certain location I might be disappointed but not more.

Heat distortion exists, as does haze and what not. Fate of an outdoor activity. If I want clinically sharp pictures without anything, which I don't really like to begin with, I look at or buy one from a said pro who had the time in the field to capture those.

As an aside, the only non-issue I have with my Z6 and Z glass is that: compared to the old D700, images look too clear, too sharp. Don't get me wrong, they look great, just a tad too good almost. So for me, there is a lot of wiggle room there anyway.

I wouldn't worry too much about some lacking sharpness, some heat distortion and other slight imperfections. Takes away the joy from being out in the field and taking great pictures, or enjoying ones time trying to.
 
I agree, but frankly lately I've been finding this means never photographing anything. I know all the theories and suggestions about avoiding it, but I don't know if it's where I live or what it's like I can't escape it.

If I go out very early in the morning before there's really any light at all, I can take clean photos but it's still too dark to do much and the lighting is dull and boring anyways. As soon as there's any sunlight at all, I start seeing the sharpness plummet and everything is a muddy mess. The very low sun that gives gorgeous dramatic early morning lighting? This is the time you're supposed to shoot in to get clean shots - but when I see this light it's too late.

The same in the evening. Close to sunset is supposed to be the other time to get around the haze, but I don't see it disappear until it's truly dark.

Elevate off the ground a bit, or shoot in the sky if it's really bad are other things that you hear a lot. No change.

So I've been wondering more about any value of higher end lenses in trying to deal with it.
It's vexing. In my area (which is pretty far south, but not south texas like) the summer is a time of ... far fewer wildlife shots for me. Though I haven't found it as bad/pervasive as you do. In the morning, I can usually get something. Evenings too, in spots that get shade due to trees well before sundown. I'll also do things like shoot smaller birds or insects in shade, and that often works all day. Actually the macro stuff is less prone to the heat distortion due to the short distances anyway.

Though yeah, during much of the daylight hours, there is really no point in taking shots out in the sun. Can be okay for birds not too close to the ground or water, so I don't have the "anywhere at all" problem that you are seeing. I cannot agree with another poster that sharpness is overrated :). Fuzzy shots ... I don't keep very many of those.

I'm shooting with a 500 pf on a crop sensor, sometimes with 1.4 converter. But I'm using the reach to get close, not for things really far away.
 
I agree, but frankly lately I've been finding this means never photographing anything. I know all the theories and suggestions about avoiding it, but I don't know if it's where I live or what it's like I can't escape it.

If I go out very early in the morning before there's really any light at all, I can take clean photos but it's still too dark to do much and the lighting is dull and boring anyways. As soon as there's any sunlight at all, I start seeing the sharpness plummet and everything is a muddy mess. The very low sun that gives gorgeous dramatic early morning lighting? This is the time you're supposed to shoot in to get clean shots - but when I see this light it's too late.

The same in the evening. Close to sunset is supposed to be the other time to get around the haze, but I don't see it disappear until it's truly dark.

Elevate off the ground a bit, or shoot in the sky if it's really bad are other things that you hear a lot. No change.

So I've been wondering more about any value of higher end lenses in trying to deal with it.
I’ve always found that up until about 9 am , even in summer in NJ along the shore, heat haze is at a minimum. A lot of it is avoided for me at this time if you get can get as close as possible. After that it’s a crap shoot. I’ve also found that DXO can eliminate some if not all the distortion if it isn’t too bad . One thing I have found is that shooting across a large expanse (field or marsh) after things have heated up is almost a waste of time. I shoot a 500pf with a 1.4tc on a D500.
I have noticed that when the wind picks up, heat haze is mitigated.
 
Atmospheric distortion also plagues astronomy. One solution to this is to put the telescope high on a mountain, or into space. Not a solution for us earthbound astronomers.

So, an alternative (for astronomers with deep pockets) is to us a "Guide Star". One shoots a laser beam at the subject along the same optical path. The return image will be distorted, of course. But then, use adaptive optics in the light path to restore the laser image to a point, hence reversing the effect of atmospheric distortion.

Adaptive optics are (usually) deformable mirrors. There are actuators beneath the mirror's surface that control the figure of the surface, resulting in just the right amount of distortion to restore the image of the Guide Star to a point. The frequency response required, which is related to the coherence time of the incoming distorted waves, is typically a few kHz.

It may also be possible to reverse the distortion without using a Guide Star if a feature on the object (i.e. an eye) is known. I know this has been tried but don't know the outcome.

So, it is physically possible to reverse the effects of atmospheric distortion. In recent times, deformable optics have been fabricated using MEMS (micro electromechanical system), so mass fabrication is becoming feasible.

Look forward to an announcement from your favorite supplier any moment now, I'm sure. :ROFLMAO:
 
I try to relegate my summer shooting for early evening and get some reasonable images then. I shoot High 10 shots and get 2 or 3 keepers. The heat seems to put the animal activity down during the daytime anyway. This is a cropped image at about dx. 500 PF on a Z8.
 

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I don't understand how shooting bursts would help in a atmospheric distortion situation. The air is wobbly for every shot, no? It's not like the lens or camera is doing something wrong, it is taking an accurate image of what is really there in the world- an object behind a lot of wobbly air.
Because you might get a shot where the air is less distorted. Look up lucky imaging
 
I recently shot a private concert, shooting over a crowd of about 50 seated people at 200mm f2.8, 1/200s. The two best shots of the lead performer came out slightly blurry. I was beside myself since the performers on stage formed a unique combination..

In desperation, I ran the images through Topaz Photo AI and it cleaned them up perfectly. I am not sure what caused the blurriness: missed focus, motion blur or heat distortion.

Still, has anyone found one of these recent AI programs useful for known atmospheric distortion correction?
 
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