I thought your current kit was everything you could dream of and you dont care about the next new thing because you just spend your time shooting....
Nikon Hot on Sony's heels???
- Thread starter Wes Peterson
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I'm a bit confused about this whole global shutter thing. According to googling…the entire sensor is read at the same time…but that seems like it would require a far greater amount of computer horsepower and bandwidth to the memory card than can easily fit into a camera body. The only way I can see is if there's a RAM buffer outside of the FPS buffer that essentially mirrors the sensor…but even then I don't understand how every pixel can be updated simultaneously…sure, a RAM buffer can be updated faster than a write buffer but it's still not all at the same time. I wonder how much of this all at the same time is marketing hype as opposed to just "a whole lot faster than a sequential line by line read/write to the buffer and card. Obviously this is a lot like parallel processing as opposed to serial processing…but for something like a Z9 with a 45MP sensor…that's a whole passle of parallel processing.
Yup I do but when spending $6k might as well have something a little different. I haven’t been wasting time on rumors about what’s coming.
Global shutter alone wont impact buffer or card performance. All other things being equal once the data gets to the A/D converter its the same file.
Processing isn't the issue, been addressed by powerful and parallel proceasors for other fast readout rolling ahutter sensors. The main beneficiaries are sports photography (think swinging golf club or flickering indoor fluorescent lighting) and videography (panning in particular). The issue historically with CMOS global shutters has been dynamic range, which is why there are almost none used in videography (Red Komodo being an exception). That's probably why the A9iii has a limited ISO range, and why no one e has reported the actual DR range. It's a feat of engineering and would absolutely eat into Canon's primacy in professional sports photography.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
the other thing that is a bit of interest, is (assuming the rumors are true), which body will they put it into and what that will do to the price point.
i'm kinda guessing that a 24mp stacked sensor will be cheaper than a 45mp stacked sensor.
so if they put that in a z9 body, that perhaps lowers the price point to like 5k and of a z8 based body to like 3.5k?
i'm kinda guessing that a 24mp stacked sensor will be cheaper than a 45mp stacked sensor.
so if they put that in a z9 body, that perhaps lowers the price point to like 5k and of a z8 based body to like 3.5k?
Yeah…I read and watched the videos on it…and it's still an awful lot of "read it all at the same time" bandwidth for a high MP sensor…which may be the reason the A9III is only 24MP.
The probable reason is heat and noise, not the ability to clear the sensor. Blackmagic replaced a global sensor with a fast-readout rolling one for that reason. But Sony today is by far leader in this technology, so I expect them to have a high MP global shutter sensor in their Venice III or FX9 II in the next couple years. Both have active cooling.
The 24.5mp sensor is the new Zf is BSI and stacked. And a thing of wonder. $2k.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i didn't think the zf sensor was stacked?!
Actually you're right. That was an earlier debunked rumor. Sorry.
Okay, wait. The Olympics are coming up. OF COURSE Nikon would be trying to get a camera like this out soon. No surprise at all. 
fcotterill
Well-known member
Pure speculation here .... As a untestable rumour started this thread....
Starting with the architecture of the Z9 stacked sensor, with EXPEED7, Nikon engineers have redesigned it to 24mp (less likely to 33mp for 8K). They have increased the scanning ie readout speed to perhaps 200fps or even higher, but still using the rolling shutter.... Yes and high speed RAW output, using only necessary HE* at the highest fps.
This will have high dynamic range and excellent lowlight quality, so using high ISO will be routine. Base ISO probably 100 and dual gain sensor...
Starting with the architecture of the Z9 stacked sensor, with EXPEED7, Nikon engineers have redesigned it to 24mp (less likely to 33mp for 8K). They have increased the scanning ie readout speed to perhaps 200fps or even higher, but still using the rolling shutter.... Yes and high speed RAW output, using only necessary HE* at the highest fps.
This will have high dynamic range and excellent lowlight quality, so using high ISO will be routine. Base ISO probably 100 and dual gain sensor...
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Midway
Well-known member
It might not be a want for wildlife shooters but from a sports shooter perspective, this rumor is interesting. Less MP is of no concern; sports shooters look to frame tight. Faster frame rates aren’t a big deal but there are advantages. Low light, fast accurate focusing and quality out of camera jpg files are very important.
One thing I’ve noticed with my Z 9 is that jpg files aren’t always as acceptable as I remember with my D5. When shooting a game, sports shooters are competing with other photographers and time and not only need to get a quality shot but need to crop, edit, caption, and submit it as quickly as possible.
I would want the new body to improve in the quality of out of camera jpg. RAW processing allows great output from the Z 9 but I have not been as satisfied with the jpg files and low light improvements would be welcome. Adding a RAW processing step while in the photo room takes valuable time. Sports Shooters are still able to get quality Z 9 jpg files and get images submitted quickly but I see room for improvement. Even importing smaller files faster is valuable time saved.
One thing I’ve noticed with my Z 9 is that jpg files aren’t always as acceptable as I remember with my D5. When shooting a game, sports shooters are competing with other photographers and time and not only need to get a quality shot but need to crop, edit, caption, and submit it as quickly as possible.
I would want the new body to improve in the quality of out of camera jpg. RAW processing allows great output from the Z 9 but I have not been as satisfied with the jpg files and low light improvements would be welcome. Adding a RAW processing step while in the photo room takes valuable time. Sports Shooters are still able to get quality Z 9 jpg files and get images submitted quickly but I see room for improvement. Even importing smaller files faster is valuable time saved.
A 24mp Z9 that shoots 14bit HE* at 120fps with pre capture and 1/500th sync speed (rolling shutter) with a base ISO of 64 would in my eyes be a more valuable than a camera that matches the A9iii specs exactly.
When the D3 came out, no one was calling it ‘low res ‘. I had a D700 then, and my buddy’s Canon was 16 mpxl. I thought that was amazing. My D6 is less than 21. Is it low res?
binned???? Please explain
John Navitsky
Well-known member
today it is. i came from the d500 and was not unhappy with the resolution, but in context of cameras like the z9, r5 and a1, i think low res is the typical reference.
which isn’t to say i find it inadequate. personally i’d really dig a 24mp stacked fx sensor in a z8 package
which isn’t to say i find it inadequate. personally i’d really dig a 24mp stacked fx sensor in a z8 package
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i don’t think that’s right anyway. binned suggests you select parts based on their quality, and i’m not sure how that would work for sensors
for example if they made a v8 engine, but if the process yielded varying results they might sell the engine as a v8, v6 or v4 depending on the quality
afaik, this is pretty common with computer processors where how fast they can run may vary or how many cores are functional may vary
but with a sensor, you need that pixel in a very specific location. you can’t just map a pixel on the edge into the center to fill in for one that isn’t working
EricKlees
Well-known member
Binned is just a term to explain that they aren't using the full amount of the pixels, like a restriction.
That could be because that's what Nikon likes to do with their sensors. It could be that's it's a restriction that Sony put on on Nikon that to buy their sensor, Nikon couldn't match their A1 at 50MP. There could be a number of reasons. But this is fine so Sony doesn't need to manufacturer multiple sensors
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O
Well-known member
The Sony A9 III at 678 Grams shows incredible power and ground breaking performance even in Raw, all in a small compact light body compared to the Z9 Z8 even. The Sony A1 is around 737 grams, i hope Nikon decides to put their new models coming on a diet LOL.
The Z9 time line indicates its due for a upgrade, hardware needs as well as next level needs.
More power- speed indicates lower resolution sensors compliment this direction, especially if going RAW at 120 fps.
There is a greater collaboration or business relationship between Sony and Nikon than we may assume.
Its been known all along there will be significant changes in 2023 2024.
More horsepower, speed flash sync speed, raw at 120 fps will attract people to up grade. Like phones refreshing digital technology is fast and furious, the A9 released i think in 2017indicate around every 3 years there is a model up grade so is it fair to assume 2024 is real for the Z9.
Stacking images, faster read outs the list is endless going forward.
The one camera does it all will always be avoided, we will always need two cameras. One hi res one a speed demon.
You can now see why the Z8 was a hurried launch to lock down customers that may want a smaller lighter fast 45mp.
Previously Nikon was left 2 years behind, now the game as predicted has raised the bar, Nikon fortunately are in a better position to respond if needed.
When you look at JP's snap first look at he A9III one thing that stood out for me was 120 fps raw full focus images, unless i misunderstood, in a short burst there were 650 ? images to look through, you could review every frame pick the perfect one out of 650, bingo you have your money shot, i assume you delete the rest.
A) what a need for huge card resources and is there a real buffer limitation. Can you switch to JPEG fine only, i mean do you really need RAW at that frame rate.
B) unless you have time what a lengthy process
C) Frame wide let the camera identify the subject, optimize its tracking settings accordingly, do its thing tracking, focusing, eye lock on for every frame, all with perfect exposure, while all you do is press the start and go button and frame the area, the camera does everything else,
Isn't that great...........
I then wondered is this the way some people are taking stills from video and is this A9III actually almost there or actually there.
Are we moving closer and faster to becoming videographers, pulling stills if ever even needed that much anymore going forward all from video.
The fundamentals of time light and speed haven't changed in recording a moment sharing a story evoking emotion.
I think the A9III tool is very interesting, its a modern computerized Jet fighter by comparison to where it all started, a twin wing bi plain LOL.
Only an opinion
The Z9 time line indicates its due for a upgrade, hardware needs as well as next level needs.
More power- speed indicates lower resolution sensors compliment this direction, especially if going RAW at 120 fps.
There is a greater collaboration or business relationship between Sony and Nikon than we may assume.
Its been known all along there will be significant changes in 2023 2024.
More horsepower, speed flash sync speed, raw at 120 fps will attract people to up grade. Like phones refreshing digital technology is fast and furious, the A9 released i think in 2017indicate around every 3 years there is a model up grade so is it fair to assume 2024 is real for the Z9.
Stacking images, faster read outs the list is endless going forward.
The one camera does it all will always be avoided, we will always need two cameras. One hi res one a speed demon.
You can now see why the Z8 was a hurried launch to lock down customers that may want a smaller lighter fast 45mp.
Previously Nikon was left 2 years behind, now the game as predicted has raised the bar, Nikon fortunately are in a better position to respond if needed.
When you look at JP's snap first look at he A9III one thing that stood out for me was 120 fps raw full focus images, unless i misunderstood, in a short burst there were 650 ? images to look through, you could review every frame pick the perfect one out of 650, bingo you have your money shot, i assume you delete the rest.
A) what a need for huge card resources and is there a real buffer limitation. Can you switch to JPEG fine only, i mean do you really need RAW at that frame rate.
B) unless you have time what a lengthy process
C) Frame wide let the camera identify the subject, optimize its tracking settings accordingly, do its thing tracking, focusing, eye lock on for every frame, all with perfect exposure, while all you do is press the start and go button and frame the area, the camera does everything else,
Isn't that great...........
I then wondered is this the way some people are taking stills from video and is this A9III actually almost there or actually there.
Are we moving closer and faster to becoming videographers, pulling stills if ever even needed that much anymore going forward all from video.
The fundamentals of time light and speed haven't changed in recording a moment sharing a story evoking emotion.
I think the A9III tool is very interesting, its a modern computerized Jet fighter by comparison to where it all started, a twin wing bi plain LOL.
Only an opinion
Cameron T
Well-known member
Yes, we understand you want light cameras. Not all of us do. I would hate a super light camera, especially with the bad ergos on sony bodies.
Not really.
Some people. Most of us don't care, or are willing to wait for nikon to get the next set of bodies out.
That's a bold assumption, and probably not accurate. Nikon isn't sony.
No?
It wasn't, but alright. Tons of people wanted that exact camera, so I'm not sure why you're making it out to be something it's not (well, I am, but that's a different post...)
The z9 was better than nearly everything out there across the board, and still is better than nearly everything. Nikon is doing fine
We get it, you love sony. My opinion is you're making them to be much better than they actually are, and nikon to be much worse than they are.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
also i’m guessing that the fact we just got a new small battery (EN-EL25a), i’m guessing we’ll see a new dx camera by the end the year (z50ii?).
i’m guessing is they shoehorn an expeed7 into a low cost dx it’ll be a huge hit. and just in time for the holidays
i’m guessing is they shoehorn an expeed7 into a low cost dx it’ll be a huge hit. and just in time for the holidays
Cameron T
Well-known member
I'm not sure about end of year, but early next year at the latest for something (z6/7iii or next dx body) is my guess.
EricKlees
Well-known member
A lot of dudes with women's hands 
i didn't get the issue with wanting point and shoot teeny tiny camera bodies. Most of these bodies like the A1 are so small that my hands cramp using them and I'm not a big dude. I'm 5'9 185lbs. Plus the buttons are way to small. I need something that is substantial and can withstand the elements and heavy use.
Pro bodies for the win!
i didn't get the issue with wanting point and shoot teeny tiny camera bodies. Most of these bodies like the A1 are so small that my hands cramp using them and I'm not a big dude. I'm 5'9 185lbs. Plus the buttons are way to small. I need something that is substantial and can withstand the elements and heavy use.Pro bodies for the win!