Nikon Z8 Banks - Really poor implementation of user settings or am I missing something?

[ccirelli]

Big discussion here, hopefully I'm not being redundant with this comment. But my main wish for Banks is: the option to LINK THEM. Having to change TWO sets of banks is a PIA, and this is where U1-2-3 is so much faster. Personally, I don't see a scenario where I'd change the Custom Settings bank without changing the Shooting Menu bank.

Another odd behavior, in the interest of changing these together as quickly as possible - if you dedicate two Info screen tiles to Custom Settings and Shooting Menu banks (best place for them IMO), only ONE bank type allows the option of a quick switch (I forget which one). Meaning, if the tile is highlighted, you can just jog the command dial and it's a very quick change. BUT only ONE bank type allows for this - the other bank type requires you to "dive into" the tile, change bank, and press the OK button (the command dial doesn't work unless the tile is "opened"). Hope that makes sense. But very different behaviors when changing both bank types using the Info screen.

That aside, I actually REALLY like that Banks retain any changes you've made, when turning the camera off or even when switching to other Bank sets. U1-2-3 drove me BANANAS because if you shut the camera off or change to another U set, it reverts to your base saved settings. Example: U3 was my Portrait setup. When I'm using flash / strobes, depending on the situation I'm always making tweaks to settings. Having these reset throughout the event was NOT good, so, I had to set everything up in M so settings would retain no matter what. Just a headache, and not an issue with Banks. Those that don't like the way Banks remember recent settings changes - simply keep Save/Load Menu Settings in your My Menu, and just load your "base" saved set when you're done with the current shoot. Super easy.

So IMO there are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. I find Banks more useful and powerful overall, but we need a "Link Banks" option and/or they need to work the SAME when they're in the i-Menu. Too cumbersome to change both. On the U1-2-3 side, just give us the option to retain changed settings so we don't lose our settings mods during outings / sessions.

 

[ccirelli]

Funny I just wrote the opposite - I actually appreciate how Banks don't "forget" what you tweak during sessions. I can't stand how U1-2-3 just resets everything when the camera is turned off (more details in my earlier reply).

So the easy way around this is to get your Banks set up exactly the way you like, and save them (under "Save/Load Menu Settings"). Once you do your first / primary save, definitely save this base settings file to your computer so you can reload them if you ever lose them from primary card (card format for example will wipe out your saved settings file).

Now once you have your settings saved on your camera - just load them any time you want to "reset" them back to base. Keep the "Save/Load Menu Settings" in your My Menu and it's a 3 second reset.

^ If I missed or misunderstanding something, I apologize in advance.

I gave up on using banks a long time ago. With no way to save your base settings, what is the point. Now I just check my setup to make sure things are the way I want them before each shoot. No need to reload banks or worry if I changed something and didn't change it back.

The inability to save a bank and have that be "sticky" so you can return to it after making adjustments is a long time complaint that Nikon has chosen to ignore.

 

[Maljo]

I don't use them. I don't find them helpful. I just dial a few settings when changing from wildflife to landscape to macro to whatever. Works fine.

 

[Cameron T]

I don't use them. I don't find them helpful. I just dial a few settings when changing from wildflife to landscape to macro to whatever. Works fine.

This is largely true for people and u modes too. It's when you dig into banks that it's great. Tbf, I don't need to use them myself, but I recognize they have a ton of power behind them. U modes are a lot weaker in what you can control and save.

 

[AzYooper]

I gave up on using banks a long time ago. With no way to save your base settings, what is the point. Now I just check my setup to make sure things are the way I want them before each shoot. No need to reload banks or worry if I changed something and didn't change it back.

The inability to save a bank and have that be "sticky" so you can return to it after making adjustments is a long time complaint that Nikon has chosen to ignore.

Actually you can have sticky settings. Using Bank A as example, which I have labeled General, as in everyday walk-around. Set it up with the base settings you like, Aperture, shutter, ISO, etc and then SAVE those settings. using Save/Load Settings, which I access quickly in My menu. Then after a day of changing everything around and adjusting, when I get home I restore all those original sticky settings using load Setting which restores all camera settings to the original upright position. Set the base settings for each bank and save them, they will always be there midday or end of session. Watch the series of Hudson Henry banks setup videos, along with his modifications after field testing. He then actually provides a downloable file with all of his modified settings. You can then modify them to your personal tastes. A great starting point to understand and master this complex beast. Between Hudson and Steve Perry you will have all the bases covered.

 

[carbon]

I believe it’s been said, but U modes could just have an option to remember changes to settings or to reset. That’s how my canon 1dx III works with its C1, C2, & C3 banks.

 

[fcotterill]

It's tricky to follow the 2 concurrent Banks threads

As posted earlier in the week, I cannot imagine how - without Pro banks - it would be impossible to manage menu diving to reset the huge range of features using the hybrid features of the Z9, for remote photography, Landscape-Macro besides 'typical' Wildlife and also BIF..... Bank settings are essential to recall in 2 thumb presses+Scrolling iMenu...custom configurations of AF modes, RSF, PreCapture, VR, Exposure, AutoCapture, Focus-Stacking, Image quality etc.

Tweaking the iMenu for the Respective genre in each Custom Bank is also useful: items such as Deleted Release, FocusShift for example aren't used in my standard Wildlife Banks

Do you use Banks and if so how?

Probably hashed to death but thought I would toss this out there. I use 3 of the 4 banks for wildlife, macro/landscape, and night. Intend to copy one of the 3 banks to A each time I start a new day. Don't follow this too well. I need to find a better method. Thoughts, suggestions, just get...

bcgforums.com

I started off on a refined setup system for outdoor genres using the paired Photo-Custom Banks with the D500 (2016), and its brethren (D850, D5). My D6 is also configured similarly for: A. Wildlife, B. standard, C. Landscape-Macro, D. Action with Extended Banks On.

Big discussion here, hopefully I'm not being redundant with this comment. But my main wish for Banks is: the option to LINK THEM. Having to change TWO sets of banks is a PIA, and this is where U1-2-3 is so much faster. Personally, I don't see a scenario where I'd change the Custom Settings bank without changing the Shooting Menu bank.

Another odd behavior, in the interest of changing these together as quickly as possible - if you dedicate two Info screen tiles to Custom Settings and Shooting Menu banks (best place for them IMO), only ONE bank type allows the option of a quick switch (I forget which one). Meaning, if the tile is highlighted, you can just jog the command dial and it's a very quick change. BUT only ONE bank type allows for this - the other bank type requires you to "dive into" the tile, change bank, and press the OK button (the command dial doesn't work unless the tile is "opened"). Hope that makes sense. But very different behaviors when changing both bank types using the Info screen.

An iMenu switch on Z9 and D6) = swift bank changes. They're quick with thumb presses, particularly between A <> D, which I often switch suddenly.

It helps to stack the pair of Bank icons in the Right hand iMenu column.

That aside, I actually REALLY like that Banks retain any changes you've made, when turning the camera off or even when switching to other Bank sets. U1-2-3 drove me BANANAS because if you shut the camera off or change to another U set, it reverts to your base saved settings.

Early 2017, I switched to a capable D750 while my D500 was in sickbay.

The D750 U* menu system could be a showstopper for wildlife photography if it caught you unawares.

What a relief to return to the D500 banks system and add a D850 thereafter

Example: U3 was my Portrait setup. When I'm using flash / strobes, depending on the situation I'm always making tweaks to settings. Having these reset throughout the event was NOT good, so, I had to set everything up in M so settings would retain no matter what. Just a headache, and not an issue with Banks. Those that don't like the way Banks remember recent settings changes - simply keep Save/Load Menu Settings in your My Menu, and just load your "base" saved set when you're done with the current shoot. Super easy.

So IMO there are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. I find Banks more useful and powerful overall, but we need a "Link Banks" option and/or they need to work the SAME when they're in the i-Menu. Too cumbersome to change both. On the U1-2-3 side, just give us the option to retain changed settings so we don't lose our settings mods during outings / sessions.

As @Dave Stargazer explains above #71, Nikon seems to have snookered itself with the deep legacy of this Banks UI system. Demand for an updated system has expanded since the big sales of the Z9 and Z8, coupled with the wider diversity of features in ramifying Menus.

However, it should be feasible to add a Link-Banks submenu function, and Recall-Last-Used-Setup...

Perhaps, their strategy is to introduce a new UI system into the next generation of mid tier MILCs (Z7, Z6) and migrate it upward into the future flagships.

The future will be interesting.

 

[fcotterill]

I keep Extended Banks ON to preserve current settings.

If this setting is OFF, the exposure settings will still be maintained despite turning the camera Off then on again. However, turning Extended Banks back ON recalls the last used exposure settings.

Actually you can have sticky settings. Using Bank A as example, which I have labeled General, as in everyday walk-around. Set it up with the base settings you like, Aperture, shutter, ISO, etc and then SAVE those settings. using Save/Load Settings, which I access quickly in My menu. Then after a day of changing everything around and adjusting, when I get home I restore all those original sticky settings using load Setting which restores all camera settings to the original upright position. Set the base settings for each bank and save them, they will always be there midday or end of session. Watch the series of Hudson Henry banks setup videos, along with his modifications after field testing. He then actually provides a downloable file with all of his modified settings. You can then modify them to your personal tastes. A great starting point to understand and master this complex beast. Between Hudson and Steve Perry you will have all the bases covered.

 

[dabhand16]

Henry Hudson's setup videos are long, yet they are also so good. I had no idea how to practically make use of banks until I discovered that I need to keep a copy of my bank settings on my memory card, put bank save/recall and delete photos on My Menu, assign My Menu to a button and then never reformat the card in order to erase photos. Using delete photos maintains a copy of the bank settings on the card, something lost if reformatting.

I always thought that deleting images in camera can affect the memory card adversely. Plenty of stuff on the web about it, but this one is by an ex-director at Lexar:

Why you should not delete images on your memory card using your camera - and other memory card tips!

Jeff Cable Photography, Memory Cards, Best practice, Proper care, How to take care, Format, FAT table, Lexar, Image Rescue, Image Recovery

blog.jeffcable.com

I keep my settings on separate cards and on my computer too.

 

[Patrick M]

I always thought that deleting images in camera can affect the memory card adversely. Plenty of stuff on the web about it, but this one is by an ex-director at Lexar:

Why you should not delete images on your memory card using your camera - and other memory card tips!

Jeff Cable Photography, Memory Cards, Best practice, Proper care, How to take care, Format, FAT table, Lexar, Image Rescue, Image Recovery

blog.jeffcable.com

I keep my settings on separate cards and on my computer too.

He's very clear. He says do not delete individual images from the camera as this can bugger up the FAT table ie the index that tells the computer where the images are in memory. He also says format the card in camera before a shoot - of course, only after you've copied all the images safely. That keeps it all clean and tidy.

 

[viper699]

Speaking as a UI designer and software developer, Nikon has a conundrum going forward - there is a large base of professionals that are used to the way banks have worked for years now - warts and all - organically growing into the morass it is today. It is muscle memory for those pros to use them, and make the adjustments they need on the fly. I'd be surprised if Nikon doesn't realize that banks need a redesign to be much more useful, but changing that UI would "break" the muscle memory of all those pros - and they would not be happy.

So forcing the pros onto a redesigned UI would be a big risk for them. They could do a parallel UI for banks - create a new UI, but leave the old one as an option. The problem with that is 1) double maintenance (if you've worked in the production software world you'll recognize this as a very bad idea, and almost guarantees bugs!) 2) some people will never transition to the new UI, so the old one must be kept around for a very very long time - which means increased costs.

Personally for me, I'd welcome a complete redesign of bank organization, and deal with the learning curve. Also hopefully that redesign would make it much more clear how banks are designed to be used, and easier for the U1 etc. folk.

Cheers!

I don’t think Nikon will change.

But not being a UI programmer, Im not sure why there couldn’t be a toggle switch to turn on Us, and turn off banks?

 

[dabhand16]

He's very clear. He says do not delete individual images from the camera as this can bugger up the FAT table ie the index that tells the computer where the images are in memory. He also says format the card in camera before a shoot - of course, only after you've copied all the images safely. That keeps it all clean and tidy.

Exactly. Just flagging this up to dplawrence who is deleting "Using delete photos maintains a copy of the bank settings on the card, something lost if reformatting" rather than formatting. I keep a separate card for my settings.

 

[ccirelli]

Sure, it's all doable. I guess my main point there is one type of bank allows for faster changing via a command dial, the other doesn't. Maybe it's the one that affects the i-Menu tile setup (can't check at the moment).

I understand most of us are in the context of fine-tuning / secondary wish-list items, and these can essentially be endless among all users. I just really want a link option for both banks and I'd be happy. Also for me, thinking on this some more - changing bank setups isn't something I (for my use case) really need to do all that quickly anyway. So none of it's a big deal for me

An iMenu switch on Z9 and D6) = swift bank changes. They're quick with thumb presses, particularly between A <> D, which I often switch suddenly.

 

[carbon]

I always thought that deleting images in camera can affect the memory card adversely. Plenty of stuff on the web about it, but this one is by an ex-director at Lexar:

Why you should not delete images on your memory card using your camera - and other memory card tips!

Jeff Cable Photography, Memory Cards, Best practice, Proper care, How to take care, Format, FAT table, Lexar, Image Rescue, Image Recovery

blog.jeffcable.com

I keep my settings on separate cards and on my computer too.

I wouldn’t worry about deleting images in-camera. Mark Smith does it all of the time.

Not saying that something bad could not happen, but if I’m not on the moon shooting irreplaceable “first step for mankind” type shots, then I’m continuing to delete in-camera.

 

[DRwyoming]

I believe it’s been said, but U modes could just have an option to remember changes to settings or to reset. That’s how my canon 1dx III works with its C1, C2, & C3 banks.

That's what I might actually use, something between what the U settings and Banks. IOW, something where pressing a single button you could save the currently adjusted settings to a memory bank that would hold that until overwritten even after powering the camera off and on again. You could still adjust settings on the fly but the baseline would reflect the last saved state. Bringing the control or sub-control wheels into it you could save current settings to any of the banks as its new baseline. That along with good alphanumeric labeling to keep the purpose of each bank clear might get me to use them on a regular basis.

 

[JAJohnson]

I don’t think Nikon will change.

But not being a UI programmer, Im not sure why there couldn’t be a toggle switch to turn on Us, and turn off banks?

Consumer-oriented cameras with user settings (U1 thru U3) have hardware which isn’t present on enthusiast/pro models. The firmware which enables the user settings is developed specifically for those cameras. Could Nikon make modification to its banks concept on enthusiast/pro models to enable capability somewhat similar to user settings? Certainly, but I don’t expect it in the near to intermediate term.

 

[JanH]

Funny I just wrote the opposite - I actually appreciate how Banks don't "forget" what you tweak during sessions. I can't stand how U1-2-3 just resets everything when the camera is turned off (more details in my earlier reply).

So the easy way around this is to get your Banks set up exactly the way you like, and save them (under "Save/Load Menu Settings"). Once you do your first / primary save, definitely save this base settings file to your computer so you can reload them if you ever lose them from primary card (card format for example will wipe out your saved settings file).

Now once you have your settings saved on your camera - just load them any time you want to "reset" them back to base. Keep the "Save/Load Menu Settings" in your My Menu and it's a 3 second reset.

^ If I missed or misunderstanding something, I apologize in advance.

I have a similar observation. I thought I didn't like the Z8 banks - even though I use them - until I set up my new Z50II as travel camera but tried to copy as many settings from the Z8 as possible. Yes, it would be great if Nikon could link the custom setting menu bank and the shooting menu bank, but having the Z50II user modes default to the set shutter speed, aperture, etc. after adjusting them for the scene when the camera turns off makes me appreciate the banks after all.

 

[Robert.Panick]

I have a similar observation. I thought I didn't like the Z8 banks - even though I use them - until I set up my new Z50II as travel camera but tried to copy as many settings from the Z8 as possible. Yes, it would be great if Nikon could link the custom setting menu bank and the shooting menu bank, but having the Z50II user modes default to the set shutter speed, aperture, etc. after adjusting them for the scene when the camera turns off makes me appreciate the banks after all.

I'll go further and like them to save settings to an XML file instead of the binary file format they use now. Some cameras will have more settings than others, those can be ignored by cameras that don't have them. The difference between pro and consumer cameras is usually more capabilities, though sometimes less capabilities in the Pro (e.g. you can use a cheap Bluetooth remote trigger with consumer, but not pro.)

Of course this will never happen, that would require the Nikon software developers actually understand how people use cameras.

 

[TonyF]

I've not found banks useful for anything you need to change on the fly (in an instant). That includes bodies with the C1/U1 type set up where going to the dial on the top of the camera is still too slow. That said - I have always found a way to set up rapid changes (like sitting birds/birds in flight/mammals) within the one bank/C1/U1. There are some short comings (like the frame rate) on every model I've ever used. I used to think that ultimate customisation ability was the way forwards but found out it isnt all its cracked up to be in the real world (be careful what reviewers who type it all out on the keyboard but didnt actually try what they say you can do ) - especially when making decisions in a fraction of a second is what really counts. I dont mind going to the i menu (plus a couple of manual tweaks) for Z8 banks but changing from wildlife to (say landscape) isnt something i would normally expect to do in an instant........just my experience if its of any use. May be helpful to some but certainly not everyone.

 

[Robert.Panick]

I've not found banks useful for anything you need to change on the fly (in an instant). That includes bodies with the C1/U1 type set up where going to the dial on the top of the camera is still too slow. That said - I have always found a way to set up rapid changes (like sitting birds/birds in flight/mammals) within the one bank/C1/U1. There are some short comings (like the frame rate) on every model I've ever used. I used to think that ultimate customisation ability was the way forwards but found out it isnt all its cracked up to be in the real world (be careful what reviewers who type it all out on the keyboard but didnt actually try what they say you can do ) - especially when making decisions in a fraction of a second is what really counts. I dont mind going to the i menu (plus a couple of manual tweaks) for Z8 banks but changing from wildlife to (say landscape) isnt something i would normally expect to do in an instant........just my experience if its of any use. May be helpful to some but certainly not everyone.

The problem isn't going from wildlife to landscape. It's going from landscape to wildlife Granted, changing lessons is likely more of an issue.