Nikon Z8 Overheating in Camera Mode

[John Navitsky]

@PhilM we have disc league tonight and you've convinced me to take the z8 instead of the z9 and just see how it goes. it's only about 77F here tho but i'll see what i notice

as an aside, do you see it in both cards?

have you done a full format in the computer then a format in the camera before use?

 

[John Navitsky]

Have you tried a slightly slower frame rate - maybe 15 fps? If it's related to the processor, that might do it.

the weird thing is, looking at the z8 teardown pictures, i don't see anything over in that corner. the processor is dead center, the card and the battery are on that other side. it's weird.

 

[John Navitsky]

Now I see your avatar. Looks like dock diving.

indeed. my girl loves dock diving, disc, agility, scent work, well, basically anything and i tend to shoot whatever game she plays

 

[PhilM]

Interesting to hear comments about the temperature. I have a golf event in three weeks that is a high volume shoot - especially on the last day. Temperatures can be 90 degrees or more.

Have you tried a slightly slower frame rate - maybe 15 fps? If it's related to the processor, that might do it.

How about cold packs placed on the camera body? In some situations I have the ability to chill a cold pack and use that periodically to cool the body.

I've heard that a warm card is not a problem - just a warning to the photographer that it is warm to their touch. Ricci suggested just raising the warning level. But if it precedes a hot card warning, we probably want to take some action to mitigate the problem.

Hey Eric,

I have not tried slowing it down below 20fps. It may be worth a try, but I'd hate to be forced to wonder "what if" because I missed the money shot. For testing, it's probably a reasonable step. I'll see about that this weekend.

With regard to cool packs, I was initially thinking that could be another interesting test. However, as I thought more about it I am concerned that it could easily introduce condensation because it is so ridiculously hot & humid down here. I think I'm gonna take a pass on that one. ;-)

 

[PhilM]

@PhilM we have disc league tonight and you've convinced me to take the z8 instead of the z9 and just see how it goes. it's only about 77F here tho but i'll see what i notice

as an aside, do you see it in both cards?

have you done a full format in the computer then a format in the camera before use?

I've seen it on all of my cards. Delkin Black, Prograde Cobalt, Delkin G4 and I've used all of these cards in both of my Z9's w/o any issues whatsoever. I format them in the camera I am going to use them in. I've long been an advocate of not allowing a desktop OS do anything to my cards except pull the data off. I'm not keen on the idea of formatting the card from a computer (MAC or PC).

I do quick formats on them before each outing and periodically do full formats, but that's more like once a month or two depending on usage.

FWIW, I have taken one of the Prograde and/or Delkins from the Z8 after experiencing the heat issue (and pulling the files off) and formatted it in a Z9 and used it w/o issue - same as a brand new card.

indeed. my girl loves dock diving, disc, agility, scent work, well, basically anything and i tend to shoot whatever game she plays

Love it! My boy is too old for games now, but I am certainly intrigued by the dics games & diving events. Maybe next time.

Interesting comment in your reply to Eric regarding CPU location as seen in the tear-down pics. I would have bet $$ that the CPU was in the corner diagonally opposite the cards slots.

Enjoy your event tonight!

Phil

PS - Feel free to send some of that cool weather down south!!!

 

[EricBowles]

the weird thing is, looking at the z8 teardown pictures, i don't see anything over in that corner. the processor is dead center, the card and the battery are on that other side. it's weird.

It looks like the circuitboard plate connects to the metal plate at the bottom with the tripod mount (around 2:21 in the Kolari Vision teardown) I suspect the circuitboard plate and bottom plate serve as a heat sink and are supposed to get hot as part of keeping the processor cool. What it's lacking is a lot of the conductive heat sink elements of the Z9.

I think little steps to manage heat are going to be important. Dropping the frame rate to 15 fps from 20 fps - or shooting JPEG to reduce the amount of data. Consciously shortening bursts slightly would help. Or switching between cameras to allow cool down time.

 

[Nimi]

It looks like the circuitboard plate connects to the metal plate at the bottom with the tripod mount (around 2:21 in the Kolari Vision teardown) I suspect the circuitboard plate and bottom plate serve as a heat sink and are supposed to get hot as part of keeping the processor cool. What it's lacking is a lot of the conductive heat sink elements of the Z9.

I think little steps to manage heat are going to be important. Dropping the frame rate to 15 fps from 20 fps - or shooting JPEG to reduce the amount of data. Consciously shortening bursts slightly would help. Or switching between cameras to allow cool down time.

Your suggestions are spot on, but also highlight why the 8, A1, and R5 as great as they are, are not for everyone. If you require certain performance levels (eg high frame rate, Raw, 8k, long-takes, etc), there is only one FF hybrid camera on the market that doesn't overheat. Same discussion, btw is raging on the new small "vlogging" cameras that are now out, especially the Sonys. I think the next generation of gripless pro-am cameras from the three FF purveyors would address it.

 

[Geoff_G]

It looks like the circuitboard plate connects to the metal plate at the bottom with the tripod mount (around 2:21 in the Kolari Vision teardown) I suspect the circuitboard plate and bottom plate serve as a heat sink and are supposed to get hot as part of keeping the processor cool. What it's lacking is a lot of the conductive heat sink elements of the Z9.

I think little steps to manage heat are going to be important. Dropping the frame rate to 15 fps from 20 fps - or shooting JPEG to reduce the amount of data. Consciously shortening bursts slightly would help. Or switching between cameras to allow cool down time.

Good point on the heatsink.....this pic shows what you describe.

Seeing this suggests a helpful 'fix". Attaching an Arca Swiss plate or L bracket creates a new heat path - and more heatsinking - thru the attacking screw and into the plate/L bracket. IOW, given the image below, an Acra Swiss plate/L Bracket adds heatsink capability and should help reduce heat buildup in the camera.

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[PhilM]

It looks like the circuitboard plate connects to the metal plate at the bottom with the tripod mount (around 2:21 in the Kolari Vision teardown) I suspect the circuitboard plate and bottom plate serve as a heat sink and are supposed to get hot as part of keeping the processor cool. What it's lacking is a lot of the conductive heat sink elements of the Z9.

I think little steps to manage heat are going to be important. Dropping the frame rate to 15 fps from 20 fps - or shooting JPEG to reduce the amount of data. Consciously shortening bursts slightly would help. Or switching between cameras to allow cool down time.

Thanks for posting the link Eric.

Not that it's necessary, but I've indicated the area that noticeably heats up in the screenshot below.
JPG's may be an option in some cases but when you're forced to shoot at elevated ISO levels, some of the current 3rd party software is better at working the noise than in-body processing so one may be better off shooting RAW.

As I'm writing this, it occurred to me that it "could" be possible that the additional processing required to compress the lossless RAW into an HE* format might require enough additional CPU cycles that it is generating more than anticipated heat when shooting bursts. I'll try Lossless RAW rather than HE* and see if there's a noticeable difference - at least in the heat from the body. I doubt it would make the cards run any cooler (or perhaps hotter due to increased file size).

Regarding burst "length", my bursts are 20 ~ 30 shots (1 ~ 1.5 seconds). For background sake, the dogs get 60 ~ 90 seconds (depending on the game) on the field and are trying to complete various tasks (be it catching a frisbee, jumping, running thru a tunnel, etc.), usually as many times as possible. So, I may have 10 ~ 15 of these 1 ~ 1.5 second bursts in a 60 ~ 90 second "run. The runs have 1 ~ 2 minutes in between. There may 30 to 60 dogs to run "per game" and these all run back to back (with the 1 ~ 2 mins in between. Then there is usually 15 ~ 20 minutes in between "games" and the cycle repeats - with a "typical" day being 4 to 6 "games" (each with 30 to 60 runs/dogs).

I'm going to try the Z8 a couple more times, and if I decide I need to use a Z9 for these events that's what I'll do.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Geoff_G]

Thanks for posting the link Eric.

Not that it's necessary, but I've indicated the area that noticeably heats up in the screenshot below.
JPG's may be an option in some cases but when you're forced to shoot at elevated ISO levels, some of the current 3rd party software is better at working the noise than in-body processing so one may be better off shooting RAW.

As I'm writing this, it occurred to me that it "could" be possible that the additional processing required to compress the lossless RAW into an HE* format might require enough additional CPU cycles that it is generating more than anticipated heat when shooting bursts. I'll try Lossless RAW rather than HE* and see if there's a noticeable difference - at least in the heat from the body. I doubt it would make the cards run any cooler (or perhaps hotter due to increased file size).

Regarding burst "length", my bursts are 20 ~ 30 shots (1 ~ 1.5 seconds). For background sake, the dogs get 60 ~ 90 seconds (depending on the game) on the field and are trying to complete various tasks (be it catching a frisbee, jumping, running thru a tunnel, etc.), usually as many times as possible. So, I may have 10 ~ 15 of these 1 ~ 1.5 second bursts in a 60 ~ 90 second "run. The runs have 1 ~ 2 minutes in between. There may 30 to 60 dogs to run "per game" and these all run back to back (with the 1 ~ 2 mins in between. Then there is usually 15 ~ 20 minutes in between "games" and the cycle repeats - with a "typical" day being 4 to 6 "games" (each with 30 to 60 runs/dogs).

I'm going to try the Z8 a couple more times, and if I decide I need to use a Z9 for these events that's what I'll do.

View attachment 66824

Just out of curiosity, do you have a plate or L bracket attached to your Z8?
I'd be interested to know if there is any heat difference between Lossless vs HE*....it's a good theory!

 

[John Navitsky]

so last night at disc i shot about 1300 frames over about an hour and a half in direct, but low, sun, ambient temp about 80F. all shots lossless compressed, 20fps, delkin black 650GB v2 card.

so not a super heavy shooting schedule, but it was what it was

i did realize that i normally turn off the camera between runs. i have my cameras set up NOT to sleep, and instead turn off the camera when not in use. remember this for the second half i left the camera on.

nothing more than slightly warm.

i suspect folks seeing hot card have a combination of high ambient temperature, direct sun and somewhat heavy shooting schedule

 

[John Navitsky]

View attachment 66824

i did notice that corner got mildly warm and agree it's due to the heat sink connection there. if you note the little square on the bottom of the camera, i noticed that was the most noticeably warm thing and it seems like it's because it's directly attached to the heat sink

 

[John Navitsky]

As I'm writing this, it occurred to me that it "could" be possible that the additional processing required to compress the lossless RAW into an HE* format might require enough additional CPU cycles that it is generating more than anticipated heat when shooting bursts.

i think this is a reasonable hypothesis

I'll try Lossless RAW rather than HE* and see if there's a noticeable difference - at least in the heat from the body. I doubt it would make the cards run any cooler (or perhaps hotter due to increased file size).

right, but the heat sink interconnects all the components including the card. so if the processor generates more heat, that heat gets shared with the card via the heat sink

 

[PhilM]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a plate or L bracket attached to your Z8?
I'd be interested to know if there is any heat difference between Lossless vs HE*....it's a good theory!

Hi Geoff,

I did add a SmallRig L-Bracket just before my last event. I'm trying to remember if I had the thermometer indicator then or not, but I cannot say for sure. I definitely had the Hot Card messages.

The more I think back, I may not have had the body (thermometer) alert. I'll pay close attention this weekend.

 

[EricBowles]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a plate or L bracket attached to your Z8?
I'd be interested to know if there is any heat difference between Lossless vs HE*....it's a good theory!

Geoff - that's a good thought.

The L-bracket could serve as a heat sink via the tripod socket. I have never heard of an L-bracket getting warm - but there might be some positive impact.

 

[John Navitsky]

Geoff - that's a good thought.

The L-bracket could serve as a heat sink via the tripod socket. I have never heard of an L-bracket getting warm - but there might be some positive impact.

and you might be able to increase it slightly by adding a little rectangle of thermal tape to that little square on the bottom so it thermally bridges that square with the heat sink connected behind it to the mass of the l-bracket or plate

 

[Geoff_G]

Geoff - that's a good thought.

The L-bracket could serve as a heat sink via the tripod socket. I have never heard of an L-bracket getting warm - but there might be some positive impact.

Yeah, I think the tripod socket may provide a 'significant' heat path for additional cooling. It'll be something to monitor.
I also Like Phil's thought that additional HE* processing is adding to the heat. HE* may reduce data flow to the card but it likely adds heat due to additional processing. SOme tradeoffs are involved here i think....

 

[bumeister]

so last night at disc i shot about 1300 frames over about an hour and a half in direct, but low, sun, ambient temp about 80F. all shots lossless compressed, 20fps, delkin black 650GB v2 card.

so not a super heavy shooting schedule, but it was what it was

i did realize that i normally turn off the camera between runs. i have my cameras set up NOT to sleep, and instead turn off the camera when not in use. remember this for the second half i left the camera on.

nothing more than slightly warm.

i suspect folks seeing hot card have a combination of high ambient temperature, direct sun and somewhat heavy shooting schedule

None of these were the case for my situation earlier this week, but I can certainly envision a variety of combinations of conditions/activities leading to excess heat that has to be dissipated via the camera body.

In my case: no l-plate yet, no direct sun, room temp, stills only, modest shooting (~200 shots in 3 hours, no bursts). We've already noted that having dual cards configured with RAW --> CFE + jpeg --> SD likely caused the higher temps in my Z8, so I've adjusted the config based on that. I won't get a chance to shoot more until this weekend to test that hypothesis however.

While acknowledging these are high performance handheld computers that require some consideration when using in demanding situations, a not-small part of me feels like we shouldn't have to think this much about how we use a $4000 camera in non-demanding situations...

Then again it's not like the Z8 is the only camera that gets hot, so maybe I'm just overthinking/worrying too much (normal for me), and I should just go out and take photos lol.

 

[EricBowles]

None of these were the case for my situation earlier this week, but I can certainly envision a variety of combinations of conditions/activities leading to excess heat that has to be dissipated via the camera body.

In my case: no l-plate yet, no direct sun, room temp, stills only, modest shooting (~200 shots in 3 hours, no bursts). We've already noted that having dual cards configured with RAW --> CFE + jpeg --> SD likely caused the higher temps in my Z8, so I've adjusted the config based on that. I won't get a chance to shoot more until this weekend to test that hypothesis however.

While acknowledging these are high performance handheld computers that require some consideration when using in demanding situations, a not-small part of me feels like we shouldn't have to think this much about how we use a $4000 camera in non-demanding situations...

Then again it's not like the Z8 is the only camera that gets hot, so maybe I'm just overthinking/worrying too much (normal for me), and I should just go out and take photos lol.

It's always a good idea to understand what the limits are for both gear and technique. I know my brakes will heat up on mountain roads, but I also know how to drive on mountain roads in a manner that puts less stress on my brakes and keeps temperatures down. The same is true for my Z8 - I can shoot any way I want until there is a problem, but I also need to know how to shoot it so it does not overheat, what to do to help it to cool after overheating, and if there are small changes I can make that maintain performance with less impact on heating.

It's a big help having input from others who are running their own testing. The reality is for 90% of what I shoot, temperature will not be a problem. There is about 10% though that falls into the area where it is a critical issue or would cause a significant adverse impact - and in those situations I would always have a backup camera available.

 

[John Navitsky]

Then again it's not like the Z8 is the only camera that gets hot, so maybe I'm just overthinking/worrying too much (normal for me), and I should just go out and take photos lol.

yep. a friend shoots fuji and they just got a fan thingy that mounts to the back of their camera for cooling. dunno if it's a fuji thing or aftermarket, but yah, heat happens

and we should be clear, while the z9 has higher thermal limits than a lot of cameras, it has limits too

 

[John Navitsky]

It's always a good idea to understand what the limits are for both gear and technique.

this

 

[John Navitsky]

just keeping the dog sport theme going
(from last night)
[Edit: oy, that 1200px lside really doesn't do justice]

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[O]

Has anyone heard if Nikon will be addressing the overheating issue in camera shooting mode? I experienced this (yes it was hot outside), but only taking small bursts of like 5pfs maybe 10fps. And not for like 10 or 20 at a time.

I feel the design capacity of the Z8 and other brand cameras with the similar issues in some units depending on application have reached a peak, there is no more head room to introduce more processing power, resolution, speed, or additional video capabilities without compounding more possible heat issues. New hardware camera models will need to be introduced, there is no more room under the bonnet to put in a larger engine with more cylinders as you need a larger radiator to keep it from over heating !
In fact i feel many of the issues being experienced are simply related to poor design and mostly cost saving.

Apple, Samsung, Microsoft to mention a few all have increased enormously processing power speed with reliability and quality with much of the hardware even made in China under strict quality control and with smart design, along with head room, camera manufacturers when you tear down their cameras should really be more proactive and clever in designs, its really obvious, its like putting a 8 ltr V8 engine in a Fiat Bambino with a tinny radiator because there isn't enough room is just an example. Sorry its such a fundamental mistake with what is served up so often, there is no excuse for issues happening.

Heat issues be it caused from cards, processors, batteries, or a combination there off can all be dealt with easily, they need to just do it.

SD cards in particular have limitations by shear physical size to deal with heat, Flash cards the good ones handle things better than the cheaper ones but have their limitations, hence my point that camera designs are often not the smartest by choice.

We all get sympathetic of manufacturers and accept poor design, quality control etc because we are told things are cutting edge technology, why can some manufactures have the issues and others don't.

When you as a design team have to design and make a product with lowest cost and highest margin and to a strict budget.........it can often dictate a design and outcome.

What would you say and do if there was a camera that was perfectly designed to do absolutely flawlessly everything it claimed to do with total reliability and have 100% of the performance you were promised or expected, cant remember when that last was, if at all ? impossible you say ?

Manufactures sadly have conditioned consumers to tolerate issues more and more.

Only an opinion

 

[Viseguy]

Wondering if attaching an L-bracket, and using some thermal paste along portions which are in direct contact might help in transferring heat to the bracket????

 

[John Navitsky]

just did a very quick and dirty test.

set up both the z8 and z9 with a 128GB lexar diamond card. i picked this card because i wanted a smaller card so i can use the card-full as a stop point. both with the 14-28 2.8 afixed, lens cap on, ss 1/1600s and 15fps (i was trying to set it to something both could sustain so we'd have the same shooting schedule).

checked starting temp of card
formated-in-camera, shot until card was full
checked ending temp of card

results were basically identical within the margin of error, which, admittedly is pretty big

cards started out about 75F, ended around 85F. but the readings where not super consistent

while i have no doubt the z9 dispels heat faster, the card wasn't super hot coming out of a full 128GB of images

i would be interested what kind of results folks who are seeing this issue have with their cards. is the card hot at the end of the shooting? mine was only warm, consistent with the 85F reading and like 10F rise over nominal