Well that's encouraging.
Nikon Z8 Rumors
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Well that's encouraging.
I do not see Nikon ever putting out top quality DX lenses like Fuji and OM Systems do.
That being the case I would prefer a D-850 like Z camera that I can shoot in 20MP DX crop if desired. I admit I loved my D-500 but D-850 users made a strong argument that the flexibility of essentially having two lenses (500MM uncropped, 750mm cropped) was important.
The Sony A1 is a full pound lighter than the Z-9 so Nikon CAN bring a FF Z-8 in with that weight savings, and maybe even a bit more if the mechanical shutter is removed. That being the case I think I would rather have the "two lens" flexibility instead of the slight weight loss.
That being the case I would prefer a D-850 like Z camera that I can shoot in 20MP DX crop if desired. I admit I loved my D-500 but D-850 users made a strong argument that the flexibility of essentially having two lenses (500MM uncropped, 750mm cropped) was important.
The Sony A1 is a full pound lighter than the Z-9 so Nikon CAN bring a FF Z-8 in with that weight savings, and maybe even a bit more if the mechanical shutter is removed. That being the case I think I would rather have the "two lens" flexibility instead of the slight weight loss.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
i think they will only do this if they make a d500 replacement. and even if they do, maybe they'll just say use the FX lenses.
i think the z7iii will fill this role
For a high MP camera,why not a 45 MP w/ sensor shift?
There are other features that may be improvements. I am thinking Canon's Dual Pixel AF system and OM Systems Cross Quad Pixel system that are uses for autofocus.
Tom
fcotterill
Well-known member
The big factor deciding the fate of a Pro DX - Z90 - is most likely where Nikon have set the margin of costs versus profit. Much of such a camera already exists: code, EXPEED7, EVF etc, and all the experience hard won on the earlier generations of Pro DSLRs, the D850 and D500 particularly. The stacked DX sensor is the crux, it must cost significantly less than an FX equivalent, which already exists if it's not locked up already in Fuji patents/licencing. The other uncertaintiles that are also guesswork if Nikon's own redesigns/changes to optimize its performance, fully electronic shutter especially.
If a DX Z90 is priced similarly to launch RRP of the D500 : D850, it might pay Nikon back handsomely. So $2200-2500 vs S3500-4000 for a FX Z8 [aka baby-Z9]. The affordability of the former will lure in Z buyers from elsewhere as well as upgraders. This is where the 200-600 Z zoom should sell rather well.
The hard cold fact is the D500 and 200-500 f5.6E has sold very well, and today it remains one of the best choices for excellent wildlife (and sports). Nikon cannot have missed the obvious ie sales of a Z90 + 200-600, plus other Z Nikkors.... all pushing up sales to average 1:2 MILCs : Z Nikkors.
The other corollary is the only DX lenses are likely to be capped at the kit zooms and 1-2 budget primes; however, the FX muffin primes are still the better choice IMHO (the 40 f2 is a great bargain). The awaited Uwide DX zoom is the only serious gap. Nonetheless, the quality of Nikon's kit zooms continues to be excellent
If a DX Z90 is priced similarly to launch RRP of the D500 : D850, it might pay Nikon back handsomely. So $2200-2500 vs S3500-4000 for a FX Z8 [aka baby-Z9]. The affordability of the former will lure in Z buyers from elsewhere as well as upgraders. This is where the 200-600 Z zoom should sell rather well.
The hard cold fact is the D500 and 200-500 f5.6E has sold very well, and today it remains one of the best choices for excellent wildlife (and sports). Nikon cannot have missed the obvious ie sales of a Z90 + 200-600, plus other Z Nikkors.... all pushing up sales to average 1:2 MILCs : Z Nikkors.
The other corollary is the only DX lenses are likely to be capped at the kit zooms and 1-2 budget primes; however, the FX muffin primes are still the better choice IMHO (the 40 f2 is a great bargain). The awaited Uwide DX zoom is the only serious gap. Nonetheless, the quality of Nikon's kit zooms continues to be excellent
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fcotterill
Well-known member
Nikon has admitted how its R&D responds to photographer's feedback, well at least Press and Sports pros. These genres have had a big influence on the D5 and D6 and most recently the Z9.
It remains to be seen how seriously Nikon consider feedback from wildlife photographers. Judging from advertising of their top end cameras and telephotos, over the past few years, it's clear they more than recognize the market eg early views of the 800 PF and 600 TC to Steve in USA, and other visible Nikon users in other countries, and at least one of the Z9 teaser videos highlighted wildlife
It remains to be seen how seriously Nikon consider feedback from wildlife photographers. Judging from advertising of their top end cameras and telephotos, over the past few years, it's clear they more than recognize the market eg early views of the 800 PF and 600 TC to Steve in USA, and other visible Nikon users in other countries, and at least one of the Z9 teaser videos highlighted wildlife
Why frame this as though it is a bad thing -- but what is missing is the link to the type of products it is developing / improving -- its R&D "for Pro-gear" responds to photographer's feedback. BUT - the recent addition of Timecode jamming via Timecode Systems Blue/One is a direct response to feedback from production video/cinema users -- I was asked and gave it to them directly. BUT -- Hi-Res Zoom which down samples 8k video feed to sub-4k and then up samples in REAL TIME -- who knew this level of processing was possible in camera for such huge data flows.
Nikon R&D respond to feedback submitted via NPS reps and focus groups. Nikon and all camera brands have very sophisticated market research and channels to feed and prioritise its R&D resources. However, it is clear that large bureaus/agencies have deep and long relationships with Nikon and Nikon support.
Nikon is clearly not alone -- e.g. my Hasselblad has forwarded my recent requests to their R&D team.
I wonder what spurred Fuji to launch their C2C grip (which has to be connected to WIFI) -- did they receive feedback that pros (sports pros) were not using their non SMF bodies because they could not FTTP/send their images back to their desks in real time -- a non issue for the Z9/R3 etc...
fcotterill
Well-known member
Well I was citing interviews with Nikon engineers / execs, in response to a question raised in this thread. I don't see it as not a bad thing they listen to sports pros per se, as I see it but judging from Nikon's own statements emphasis has been until very recently strongly confined to these 2 genres. If they listened to wildlife photographers wrt the development of the earlier cameras, eg D500 and D850 I never heard/read this stated. And the Z6 and Z7 - also continues to suffer from neglect of simple firmware fixes to the Menus: i.e. AFMode+AFOn option - why I dumped mine and repeatedly warn newcomers away from these to a more suitable camera for wildlife (which are bargains Used in any case for a D500 or D850 even D5).
I am also feeding requests and suggestions via my route through NPS, which is to Nikon Asia (Singapore). It is clear in Nikon's actions - recent products and marketing videos - that Nikon has recognized the significance of the market in wildlife photographers, which must be huge. In this context, as an aside, Nikon's R&D of binoculars have definitely been targeting birders - and with success - as well as other outdoor pursuits.
How Many Wildlife Photographers are there?
This question came up in a discussion about the new Z II Nikon cameras. It's an elephant in the room IMHO. The reports below examining the economics of ecotourism and wildlife management suggest the wildlife photography industry is significant, both in numbers and economic worth. Even if these...
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So it's encouraging to read your experience of inside developments, which concurs with Nikon's recent statements it's prioritizing video support in Pro Z cameras. This is obvious in many positives in recent releases, as well as official statements by the Tokyo HQ.
The fact that the Z9 launched with a base ISO of 64 -- strongly suggests that voices from other genres were very clearly listened too -- otherwise we would have seen a Base ISO of 200.
Plus all the other features that are increasingly in support of Studio and Event shooters -- the new Flash LV/Ambient settings and High-Frequ Flicker Reduction.
Some of us Wildlife/Action shooters wanted other base settings
The 45.7 MP is clearly not solely designed for news/action/sports. What "we" still "want" are 34 mp (3/4) and 24 mp (53%) downsampled full-frame image size in Lossless and HE* RAW formats -- as well as JPG.
Great keep going -- Steve P, Thom H and others (yes including me -- see my running blog entry):
- allow multiple recall shooting function hold options on each menubank
- add a role we can assign for the camera to set the lens focus to the theoretical hyperfocal distance for the lens/aperture combination. On button press to set the focus distance to this “distance” - it is very difficult to do this consistently by hand with fly by wire lenses
- add turn Subject Detection ON / OFF as a programable role for buttons — we would select the type of Subject Detection while it was turned on
- add over-exposure blinkies/zebras for still shooters viewable in the EVF/Live view
- higher flash sync speed before switching to HSS/ Auto-FP — please push the boundaries for faster/higher flash sync speeds when using strobes — I would like to control when the camera pushes my strobes into HSS. Currently black banding occurs at 1/250 (starting at) and higher shutter speeds — can the Z9 not deliver 1/400th or 1/800th?
- add file size options for RAW shooters using downsampling NOT image area reduction — as previously noted the 30mp jpg is a useful file size - can this be delivered for RAW too — AND would that allow higher FPS
- consider how to use HE* to provide higher FPS RAW options — since the file size is 50%-60% of the lossless file size - why can’t the camera deliver 30fps on Full-Frame in HE* RAW
- add more Grid display and cropping options — Is it possible to add/apply crops like 16x9, 1x1 at least overlays, even if the whole output of the sensor is saved to a file.
- add support for frame averaging — this is when one takes a series of shots with — similar to an exposure bracket — but with NO change to the exposure setting and then uses tools like photoshop to combine the shots using the MEAN blending option for smart objects. This is similar to the process used the IQ4 backs for long “exposure” shots — basically one exposes for the scene and takes “say” 100 images then blends the results to achieve the equivalent of a 10-stop ND filter. The 2nd benefit is that noise can be reduced by the equivalent of Square root (number of shots averaged) (see Jim Kasson’s blog for the maths). Is there a remote possibility of in camera frame averaging?
Yes Nikon corp seems to be going a lot better these days -- developments with the precision business and the 3 new strategic businesses are all good for the company's financial health.
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DRM
Well-known member
I’m not sure the D500 was as big of a hit for Nikon as it was for those who bought it. They still make DSLRs and have said they are going to continue to do so even though they aren’t developing DSLRs anymore. But they’ve essentially discontinued the D500, right?
And looking at the reported numbers of Nikon’s sold bodies (linked below), I can easily see why Nikon has said what they have about DX’s future in the Z line, the DX being slotted for entry level cameras. Because entry level DX bodies gave Nikon a much greater return on their investment than their flagship DX body did with the F mount. And similarly, the D800 line gave Nikon a greater return than did the flagship DX. So to me, a Z8 is much more likely than a Z90.
Nikon let their flagship DX F mount body die. As much as I have thought a Z90 would pair great with my 400 f/4.5, I don’t see Nikon bringing a flagship DX back in the Z line if they’ve already let the previous one die. I do see them bringing out a baby FF Z9, but perhaps they are holding it’s release back while they figure out why the related tech in the Z9s keep reportedly locking up.
And looking at the reported numbers of Nikon’s sold bodies (linked below), I can easily see why Nikon has said what they have about DX’s future in the Z line, the DX being slotted for entry level cameras. Because entry level DX bodies gave Nikon a much greater return on their investment than their flagship DX body did with the F mount. And similarly, the D800 line gave Nikon a greater return than did the flagship DX. So to me, a Z8 is much more likely than a Z90.
Nikon let their flagship DX F mount body die. As much as I have thought a Z90 would pair great with my 400 f/4.5, I don’t see Nikon bringing a flagship DX back in the Z line if they’ve already let the previous one die. I do see them bringing out a baby FF Z9, but perhaps they are holding it’s release back while they figure out why the related tech in the Z9s keep reportedly locking up.
If Nikon can bring a 40+mp Z8 to market that is relatively light and had the capability for a DX crop mode, would many buy a Z90 DX body at about the same price point? When the D500 came out sensor size had a large role in camera prices. That seems to be changing now.
The Z50 is a great inexpensive little (almost “pocketable“) camera. A Z90 would not (for me) be anything like the Z50. I used my D500 on full frame telephoto f-mount lenses and to backup my D850. I did not care about DX lenses for my D500. For me, I would (will) buy a fairly light Z8 full frame body as a backup for my Z9 - and not a Z90 unless the Z90 had similar performance to a Z9 but was priced much lower than the hypothetical Z8.
The Z50 is a great inexpensive little (almost “pocketable“) camera. A Z90 would not (for me) be anything like the Z50. I used my D500 on full frame telephoto f-mount lenses and to backup my D850. I did not care about DX lenses for my D500. For me, I would (will) buy a fairly light Z8 full frame body as a backup for my Z9 - and not a Z90 unless the Z90 had similar performance to a Z9 but was priced much lower than the hypothetical Z8.
Well I was citing interviews with Nikon engineers / execs, in response to a question raised in this thread. I don't see it as not a bad thing they listen to sports pros per se, as I see it but judging from Nikon's own statements emphasis has been until very recently strongly confined to these 2 genres. If they listened to wildlife photographers wrt the development of the earlier cameras, eg D500 and D850 I never heard/read this stated. And the Z6 and Z7 - also continues to suffer from neglect of simple firmware fixes to the Menus: i.e. AFMode+AFOn option - why I dumped mine and repeatedly warn newcomers away from these to a more suitable camera for wildlife (which are bargains Used in any case for a D500 or D850 even D5).
I am also feeding requests and suggestions via my route through NPS, which is to Nikon Asia (Singapore). It is clear in Nikon's actions - recent products and marketing videos - that Nikon has recognized the significance of the market in wildlife photographers, which must be huge. In this context, as an aside, Nikon's R&D of binoculars have definitely been targeting birders - and with success - as well as other outdoor pursuits.
How Many Wildlife Photographers are there?
This question came up in a discussion about the new Z II Nikon cameras. It's an elephant in the room IMHO. The reports below examining the economics of ecotourism and wildlife management suggest the wildlife photography industry is significant, both in numbers and economic worth. Even if these...
So it's encouraging to read your experience of inside developments, which concurs with Nikon's recent statements it's prioritizing video support in Pro Z cameras. This is obvious in many positives in recent releases, as well as official statements by the Tokyo HQ.
Apropos, latest Insta post from a highly-followed feed typically showcasing cine lenses from Arri, Cooke, Fujinon, etc. I don't remember ever seeing a Nikon lens, here paired with a Z9. Relatively unknown (to me) photographer and agency.
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fcotterill
Well-known member
As I summarize above, much of a Baby Z8 /Z90 already exists, in code, Expeed7, the EVF et al.
The crux is whether Nikon can price a DX Z90 at a similar ratio to the launch RRP of the D500 : D850
This will arguably pay Nikon back handsomely BUT only IF it's possible to get a $2200-2500 Z90 vs S3500-4000 for a FX Z8 [aka baby-Z9]. The affordability of the former will lure in Z buyers from elsewhere as well as upgraders.
This is where the 200-600 Z zoom should sell rather well.Nikon cannot have missed the obvious here ie sales of a Z90 + 200-600, plus other Z Nikkors.... all pushing up sales to average 1:2 MILCs : Z Nikkors. Lenses have higher profit margins.
fcotterill
Well-known member
Sensor cost is probably still the deciding factor. The ILC market has shifted in key respects, which ink already spilled on these changes. But the really interesting change is the future of the (almost) solid state camera.
Stacked sensors appear essential for a fully electronic shutter. A stacked DX sensor incurs less production errors and higher yields/platter, but the R&D costs might be the real deciding factor as to whether Nikon has decided to go this route.
Stacked sensors appear essential for a fully electronic shutter. A stacked DX sensor incurs less production errors and higher yields/platter, but the R&D costs might be the real deciding factor as to whether Nikon has decided to go this route.
John Navitsky
Well-known member
the reason i think a d500 replacement makes sense for nikon is it gives them a way to provide another action oriented camera at a lower price point that has significant differentiation from the z9. a lot of people basically want a z9 that’s smaller and cheaper, but that doesn’t make much sense from nikon’s perspective. but as a dx this makes more sense
fcotterill
Well-known member
Nikon have undoubtedly modelled projected sales of only FX Hobbyist/Pro cameras versus the cost-benefits of adding a DX Prosumer MILC. Lenses sales are the third critical variable.
Again, the key question is whether a more affordably priced DX MILC leverage more sales of Z Nikkors?
The big catch will be its Z9 level performance, albeit 8K video(?) will require a high res sensor (~40mp). It should be lighter too. If it nets more hobbyists it could be attractive to some Pros as an additional camera.
8k needs 33mp which is now easily attainable on a crop sensor. I still agree that the value proposition might not be there since I can't see Nikon putting resources into good, dedicated crop lenses, and without those, might as well stick with full-frame for the "500 replacement."
fcotterill
Well-known member
Thanks for your valued input of video information
I agree Nikon is likely to cap their design as only a bare few dedicated DX lenses, and 'entry' level; the one exception is perhaps a decent 12-24 DX (this is roadmapped). Most owners of a DX Z90 will buy FX Nikkors, telephotos particularly and/or adapt F-mounts.Again, the crux of net production cost is how well such an action MILC leverages lens sales. A proportion of Z90 owners are likely to grow up a Z collection as budgets permit: especially if their earnings increase in due course. A tertiary student would be the model costumer in this context.
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John Navitsky
Well-known member
for a prosumer/pro dx, they prolly can get away with the use of fx lenses. it’s less expensive dx cameras they need other options i think
Calson
Well-known member
As with the F4 and the F100 or the D3 and D300, what is needed is a lower priced Z9 that retains the subject detection and autofocus capabilities. But it also should have the same menu structure and the same controls on the body - something Nikon is notoriously poor at doing as we see with the Z7 and Z9 cameras.
When I compared the Z7 to the Z9 I decided that they were not a good combination and waited to buy a second Z9 instead when migrating from DSLR to mirrorless.
When I compared the Z7 to the Z9 I decided that they were not a good combination and waited to buy a second Z9 instead when migrating from DSLR to mirrorless.