Nikon Z8 vs. Sony A1ii

[fcotterill]

As @Nimi and others say above, it's the Glass that matters most.

Autofocus is probably the most active arena of R&D by the leading companies. Nikon's strategy releases frequent firmware updates. Besides new features added and bug fixes, it's assumed each release incorporates the latest state of Deep-Learning training of the pattern recognition algorithms.

Subject Detection has significantly changed how we use the Z9 and related MILCs with their respective versions of the Z9 Autofocus system. One advantage, for example, of SD with wildlife subjects is getting images of sharp eyes on a moving subject.

Useful sources for Nikkor reviews and data links are appended, with respect to information for wildlife gear.

Many of us rely on the FTZ adapters to use G and E type F-mount lenses on our Z cameras.

Detailed comparisons of Nikkor Telephotos

For Z system, including a few F Nikkors - synopsis of Thom Hogan's detailed testing to identify the 'Best Telephoto Options in the Z Mount' : https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-lenses/nikkor-lenses/z-mount-lens-articles/best-telephoto-options-in.html Table added:

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Natural Art Images: Brad Hill: Stuff I Use Part I: Cameras

Camera gear and related accessories regularly used by Brad Hill in the field. Part I - Cameras I currently use or have used.

www.naturalart.ca

Lens Reviews - Photography Life

This page contains all hands-on, detailed lens reviews that have been published by the team of proessional photographers from Photography Life.

photographylife.com

"Which Nikon telephoto(s)?" for Wildlife Genres: Updated

This question involves an interesting set of factors. The answer(s) depend on one's personal needs, and budget obviously, besides the diversity of subjects and respective conditions. Here's an attempt to sketch out the challenges, and outline where to find resources to help settling final...

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[Lee R]

Geeze peeze!!!! Pick your poison and move on! They’re all good….

You basically can't fail picking any one of them that's for sure.

 

[Lee R]

As @Nimi and others say above, it's the Glass that matters most.

Autofocus is probably the most active arena of R&D by the leading companies. Nikon's strategy releases frequent firmware updates. Besides new features added and bug fixes, it's assumed each release incorporates the latest state of Deep-Learning training of the pattern recognition algorithms.

Subject Detection has significantly changed how we use the Z9 and related MILCs with their respective versions of the Z9 Autofocus system. One advantage, for example, of SD with wildlife subjects is getting images of sharp eyes on a moving subject.

Useful sources for Nikkor reviews and data links are appended, with respect to information for wildlife gear.

Many of us rely on the FTZ adapters to use G and E type F-mount lenses on our Z cameras.

Detailed comparisons of Nikkor Telephotos

For Z system, including a few F Nikkors - synopsis of Thom Hogan's detailed testing to identify the 'Best Telephoto Options in the Z Mount' : https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-lenses/nikkor-lenses/z-mount-lens-articles/best-telephoto-options-in.html Table added:

bcgforums.com

Natural Art Images: Brad Hill: Stuff I Use Part I: Cameras

Camera gear and related accessories regularly used by Brad Hill in the field. Part I - Cameras I currently use or have used.

www.naturalart.ca

"Which Nikon telephoto(s)?" for Wildlife Genres: Updated

This question involves an interesting set of factors. The answer(s) depend on one's personal needs, and budget obviously, besides the diversity of subjects and respective conditions. Here's an attempt to sketch out the challenges, and outline where to find resources to help settling final...

bcgforums.com

Auto Capture also opens up a ton of opportunities as well for creative placement of the camera closer to wildlife and being able to use shorter prime lenses which are sharper than the big telephoto's.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I agree that the m43 sensor is near the end of its developmental life.

---but....
Nikon isn't there yet. It doesn't have pre-capture in RAW and the Z8 is heavy. The PF primes are great but the 180-600 zooms are also heavy. I would not sell my OM Systems gear but if money is no issue a Z8/600pf would be fun.

Sony had jumped Nikon with the A1-2. Plus the A1-2 is lighter than the Z8 but no pf lenses. Plus limited to 30 f/s when you are used to 50 f/s. Again, won't sell my OM Systems gear but an A1-2/200-600 would be fun.

Canon R5-2 plus 100-500 is the lightest of the bunch. However, how much do you gain.

Bottom line: As an OM Systems user it is not yet time to switch. Wait for the Z8-2 and see.

 

[Len Shepherd]

Thank all of you for your insights, you came up with a few thoughts I hadn't considered. Looks like the Nikon is going to make more sense

Perhaps coming in a little late, for those who handhold longer lenses a lot, in lens VR is usually distinctly more important than IBIS.
The Nikon in-lens VR system seems to have clear advantages over Sony.

 

[John Navitsky]

Perhaps coming in a little late, for those who handhold longer lenses a lot, in lens VR is usually distinctly more important than IBIS.
The Nikon in-lens VR system seems to have clear advantages over Sony.

caveat, for stills. i think it sounds like sony does better with video stabilization

 

[Bikeman]

My reasons for switching from Sony to Nikon z8 earlier this year:

Nikon 600 and 800pf lenses.

Compact flash B vs A cards are up to 3-4 times cheaper.

Body ergonomics. Especially the gap between some lenses and right hand fingers. But also the extra Function bottoms on front of camera and the lcd on top of camera.

More frequent and more feature added firmware updates.

Price compared to A1. Got a like new Z8 for $2700 vs close to $5,000 for a used A1 at the time.

Nikon mount allows Sony (and third party Sony mount) lenses to adapted to Nikon. Be aware though that focus while zooming doesn’t work, at least not for me. Otherwise it’s been flawless for me.

 

[Maljo]

Z8 and Z9 photographer and very happy. But either system is excellent. Which ever your buy, the 'grass will always be greener' on the other side of the fence. The only. logical solution is to buy both systems. We'll expect a report from you in five years on which system is better.

 

[abc123brian]

caveat, for stills. i think it sounds like sony does better with video stabilization

I don’t think this is true but also depends on a few factors. It seems lumix is the one to beat with video stabilization and handles most situations well. Sony and Nikon both suffer from some weird jerks when trying to correct movement from walking or panning but if you’re hand holding and filming a subject in an area I think Nikon is better. Watch some of Jan’s videos where he says the stabilization on the Nikon is incredible with examples. I’ve been able to handhold video at 700-840mm with the Z8/Z9 that is very stable.

 

[Nimi]

Th

I don’t think this is true but also depends on a few factors. It seems lumix is the one to beat with video stabilization and handles most situations well. Sony and Nikon both suffer from some weird jerks when trying to correct movement from walking or panning but if you’re hand holding and filming a subject in an area I think Nikon is better. Watch some of Jan’s videos where he says the stabilization on the Nikon is incredible with examples. I’ve been able to handhold video at 700-840mm with the Z8/Z9 that is very stable.

That's my experience, Lumix (less dense sensor) is the one to beat. If you're a hybrid shooter leaning more to video, the S5ii is a great camera. I got its stripped down version the S9. But it's not a great action camera and the L alliance doesn't have the lenses Sony and Nikon have.

 

[DavidT]

I've been shooting MFT since the E-M1, I really don't have a problem with the smaller sensor. Most of my existing OM glass is f/2.8, when I go to full frame I will likely go with f/4 lenses for some of it. The exceptions being a 70-200 f/2.8 and whatever I end up with for telephoto. The size/weight/cost are in line with my MFT glass for the most part. My major concern is will MFT be able to innovate. Sensors are a big issue, there isn't the volume to justify a lot of iteration. Same goes for the processor. I'm also not too sure about OM ability to push the edges like they did in the past.

I agree this is all an unknown. I would not be surprised if they move away from
M4/3 and go to an apsc size sensor. They wouldn’t have to change much and it’s much more excepted by consumers.

 

[DocKayT]

now this is a phrase I've never heard someone say before LOL

• If cost is a main factor for you, especially if you want two of your main body - Sony doesn't make a ton of sense.
• Every lens that you can use on a Sony body, you can also use on a Nikon body, even FE mounts
• Agree, 5MP is negligible
• Agree, slightly ahead but not twice as good
• Disagree, I think we'll see a successor to the Z8 release next year or 2026 at latest
• Agree
• Agree

I'm currently a Nikon user, most likely going to Sony with the A1 II.

IMO and what I've seen, the biggest (only?) draw to Nikon is the lens lineup. If you can't or don't want to shell out money on the 300GM, the 400 4.5 and 600PF are good alternatives. If you don't want to spend money on a 600GM + 1.4x, the 800PF is a good alternative. If you do want to spend money on the big lenses, the TC lenses are incredible.

My main reasons for going to Sony are: Better AF, precapture raw, 30 fps, and size and weight. I'll be reducing my kit weight by about 20% across the board. For me, at this time it seems like a good move at least until the next Z8/Z9 come out. Then I hope to come back some day

My ideal would be an R3 body with Sony internals, Canon AF, a 300TC, 600TC, and 100-500.

Just for clarification: The a1 II's 30 fps is compressed raw, not lossless compressed! That holds true for pre-capture as well. Thus, Nikon's capabilities do not look that bad even if it is "only" jpg. Sold my a1 fortunately a couple of months ago in anticipation of this disappointing "update".

 

[nmerc_photos]

Good observations, but I suspect we won't see the Z8 and Z9 refreshes for a bit yet. Things have slowed down, it costs more and takes longer to make minor improvements.

I would be extremely surprised to see a longer wait time between the Z8/Z9 II *UNLESS* they did what someone else said, and decide to just keep throwing firmware updates at them and continue to sell them that way.

Would be an interesting case study in profitability. But with Canon and Sony just dropping their new cameras, it would be very strange to me to see Nikon lag so far behind. A lot of missed opportunity if you ask me.

A ton of unhappy Sony A1 and Canon R5 owners right now who view the A1II/R5II as what could've been firmware upgrades, at higher costs.

Nikon bodies with 30 FPS+, precapture raw, and better AF right now (or anytime in the next 4 years until the following round of Sony/Canon) could capitalize on and get a lot of users to swap to the Nikon system.

Just for clarification: The a1 II's 30 fps is compressed raw, not lossless compressed! That holds true for pre-capture as well. Thus, Nikon's capabilities do not look that bad even if it is "only" jpg. Sold my a1 fortunately a couple of months ago in anticipation of this disappointing "update".

Compressed raw, lossless compressed, neither one makes a big distinction. What does make a huge distinction is JPEG. It's so far behind the others that it's hardly worth mentioning, unless you're a high speed news shooter who has to get that image out to the papers in seconds.

 

[arbitrage]

I think Nikon will aim for end of 2025 or early 2026 just in time for Winter Olympics for the Z9II. Z8II may come out later just like Z8 or maybe it would make more sense to just release them at the same time?? Although given how many people I saw buy Z9, sell Z9, buy Z8, it was probably better for Nikon to not release them at the same time as they made more money from two purchases.

I will take a hard look at the next round of Z9/Z8 cameras. I would love to shoot the 400TC and then might adapt my 300GM or go 600PF for my lightweight option. But maybe by then Sony will bring out a new 400/2.8 with a TC in it and then it won't really matter...I'll stick with Sony.

 

[ajrmd]

I think Nikon will aim for end of 2025 or early 2026 just in time for Winter Olympics for the Z9II. Z8II may come out later just like Z8 or maybe it would make more sense to just release them at the same time?? Although given how many people I saw buy Z9, sell Z9, buy Z8, it was probably better for Nikon to not release them at the same time as they made more money from two purchases.

I will take a hard look at the next round of Z9/Z8 cameras. I would love to shoot the 400TC and then might adapt my 300GM or go 600PF for my lightweight option. But maybe by then Sony will bring out a new 400/2.8 with a TC in it and then it won't really matter...I'll stick with Sony.

I think your timeline makes a lot of sense and while it is impossible to know the inner working strategies of these corporations, I can say that the design and tooling for new bodies is quite expensive. In most industries, maximizing sales, profits, and ROI predominate and that is always tempered against competitive market features. Unless, Nikon perceives that the new Canon and Sony releases are carving into these factors, I doubt they will race to produce and release the Z9II and Z8II any time soon.

 

[DavidT]

I think Nikon will aim for end of 2025 or early 2026 just in time for Winter Olympics for the Z9II. Z8II may come out later just like Z8 or maybe it would make more sense to just release them at the same time?? Although given how many people I saw buy Z9, sell Z9, buy Z8, it was probably better for Nikon to not release them at the same time as they made more money from two purchases.

I will take a hard look at the next round of Z9/Z8 cameras. I would love to shoot the 400TC and then might adapt my 300GM or go 600PF for my lightweight option. But maybe by then Sony will bring out a new 400/2.8 with a TC in it and then it won't really matter...I'll stick with Sony.

They need to do something to increase the gap between a z8 and a z9. I suspect one will get a higher MP sensor or maybe a global sensor. Not sure what but the z8 did impact z9 sales. It doesn’t make sense to have a flagship and another body with the same capabilities packaged in different sizes.

 

[John Navitsky]

I think Nikon will aim for end of 2025 or early 2026 just in time for Winter Olympics for the Z9II. Z8II may come out later just like Z8

or maybe it would make more sense to just release them at the same time??

i don't think so. i think it's a good chance we'll see a z9ii at end of '25, that'd put it 4 years after the first one. but i think they will continue the trend to have the trickle down follow over time. i think they are doing this for two reasons.

1) it's probably easier to do one camera at a time from a whole lot of different ways
2) it minimizes cannibalization

 

[John Navitsky]

with regards to new release timing, i think there are two competing factors:

1) it may be _easier_ for them to cycle now that they have a solid base to work from (expeed7, sensor and associated software*)
2) if they are planning to do sensor changes (like trying to improve the on-sensor af sensors) that can be difficult and could cause delays

* if i had to guess, i'd say they'd re-use the sensor, and only move to expeed8 for the next camera. the existing sensor is fine and sensor development is hard, and may best be done over the course of two camera lifespans instead of every camera. witness the a1 sticking with the same sensor for the a1ii

 

[Nimi]

You have to remember that today, Nikon sources all its sensors from Sony and that Sony will always put the most advanced sensor in its own cameras.

Second, the relevant Red sensor today (not made by Sony), is the 8k full-frame sensor in the Raptor XL, and that's only 35mp and $50k.

Finally, Canon has not demonstrated the ability to make a high MP, full-frame global shutter sensor, and neither has anyone else.

In summary: I don't expect Nikon to pioneer high-mp, FF global shutter in Z9ii. More likely it will be the same sensor as the Z9, maybe inching to the 60mp Sony sensor if they can keep the frame rate up and heat down.

 

[Len Shepherd]

I think your timeline makes a lot of sense and while it is impossible to know the inner working strategies of these corporations, I can say that the design and tooling for new bodies is quite expensive.

Nikon are likely working on developing an Expeed 8 with potential for numerous advances - perhaps in time for the next Winter Olympics.

 

[TurtleCat]

You have to remember that today, Nikon sources all its sensors from Sony and that Sony will always put the most advanced sensor in its own cameras.

Second, the relevant Red sensor today (not made by Sony), is the 8k full-frame sensor in the Raptor XL, and that's only 35mp and $50k.

Finally, Canon has not demonstrated the ability to make a high MP, full-frame global shutter sensor, and neither has anyone else.

In summary: I don't expect Nikon to pioneer high-mp, FF global shutter in Z9ii. More likely it will be the same sensor as the Z9, maybe inching to the 60mp Sony sensor if they can keep the frame rate up and heat down.

That has largely been proven untrue. Sony Semiconductor works separately from Sony Imaging. And there are many patents cross-shared between Nikon and Sony Semiconductor. Nikon has a sensor design lab as does Sony. Sony makes their selections as does Nikon when it comes to fabrication but there’s no proof that there are special secret things that Sony Semiconductor does only for Sony Imaging unless Sony Imaging designs it and they agree to holding back on offering that technology to others. Same, coincidentally, would be true of any Nikon tech Sony Semiconductor works on.

I have no idea what Nikon or Sony Imaging will do, nor Canon. But we’ve been seeing that most of the changes have been computational and AF related because that is where some of the biggest gains can be made. Although if anyone could crack the nut of requiring (essentially) sneakernet for doing anything with the images they would have a profound impact on the market.

 

[Calson]

I would be more inclined to be deciding between the Z8 and the Sony A7 IV camera. More than a few Sony shooters have found the animal detection of the A7 to be as good or in some cases better than the A1 camera. That may not be the case with the new A1 II camera but it is 3x the cost of trhe A7 IV camera. For wildlife photography the A7 camera's 30MP sensor is not a disadvantage and more reason for me to choose it over the A1 with its 50MP sensor.

With all other electronics the performance goes up and the price goes down. Wtih cameras the manufacturers provide "enhancements" to justify keeping the price high year after year after year.

 

[Nimi]

That has largely been proven untrue. Sony Semiconductor works separately from Sony Imaging. And there are many patents cross-shared between Nikon and Sony Semiconductor. Nikon has a sensor design lab as does Sony. Sony makes their selections as does Nikon when it comes to fabrication but there’s no proof that there are special secret things that Sony Semiconductor does only for Sony Imaging unless Sony Imaging designs it and they agree to holding back on offering that technology to others. Same, coincidentally, would be true of any Nikon tech Sony Semiconductor works on.

I have no idea what Nikon or Sony Imaging will do, nor Canon. But we’ve been seeing that most of the changes have been computational and AF related because that is where some of the biggest gains can be made. Although if anyone could crack the nut of requiring (essentially) sneakernet for doing anything with the images they would have a profound impact on the market.

We'll have to disagree. The sensor on the Z9 and A1 share a serial number that's off by one digit and I have yet to see evidence for shared patents, which should be easy to find if they existed. I know for a fact that Sony Semi and Sony Imaging are connected at the hip. IMO Nikon made some minor modifications to an off-the-shelf sensor.

Nikon just filed a patent (on its own) for a new hybrid sensor. No such patent exists for the Z9 sensor. They can take it to Sony Semi although my guess is they will go to another foundry like STM (which most likely fabricated the Red sensors designed by Forza Sillicon).

In addition to advances to AF, I think sensors will get dynamic range improvement which have been stuck at 12-13 stops for almost ten years.

 

[TurtleCat]

We'll have to disagree. The sensor on the Z9 and A1 share a serial number that's off by one digit and I have yet to see evidence for shared patents, which should be easy to find if they existed. I know for a fact that Sony Semi and Sony Imaging are connected at the hip. IMO Nikon made some minor modifications to an off-the-shelf sensor.

Nikon just filed a patent (on its own) for a new hybrid sensor. No such patent exists for the Z9 sensor. They can take it to Sony Semi although my guess is they will go to another foundry like STM (which most likely fabricated the Red sensors designed by Forza Sillicon).

In addition to advances to AF, I think sensors will get dynamic range improvement which have been stuck at 12-13 stops for almost ten years.

I’m OK with agreeing to disagree. But I would be curious how you would know for a fact that Sony Semi and Sony Imaging are that connected. Are you an executive at Sony? In any case it is indisputable that Nikon has its own sensor research and its own sensor patents and that Nikon and Sony worked together for many years before becoming rivals.

 

[ajrmd]

We'll have to disagree. The sensor on the Z9 and A1 share a serial number that's off by one digit and I have yet to see evidence for shared patents, which should be easy to find if they existed. I know for a fact that Sony Semi and Sony Imaging are connected at the hip. IMO Nikon made some minor modifications to an off-the-shelf sensor.

Nikon just filed a patent (on its own) for a new hybrid sensor. No such patent exists for the Z9 sensor. They can take it to Sony Semi although my guess is they will go to another foundry like STM (which most likely fabricated the Red sensors designed by Forza Sillicon).

In addition to advances to AF, I think sensors will get dynamic range improvement which have been stuck at 12-13 stops for almost ten years.

My sentiments are similar and unless Nikon is able to spin off and produce higher quality sensors less expensively (doubtful) they are likely linked to the Sony products. Beyond DR which has been proven tricky to expand especially as the move has been to stacked sensors and faster read outs, the real opportunity IMHO is to dovetail off of Canon's move into producing a "cross sensor" in the MILC. Depending on patent restrictions, I would suspect that Sony is working on something functionally equivalent.