Nikon Z8 vs. Sony A1ii

[DavidT]

I will drop my 2 cents here from a manufacture/distributor profession. In my industry there is some cross pollinating and we private label for brands across multiple industries and uses. In some cases it is a relabeled product, in others it isn't and is a custom design. The consumer will not know what is a relabel and what is custom. Depending on what is different and how the company buying it markets it you may see some design changes.

Now taking that and applying it to a camera sensor, Nikon like my customers won't publicly disclose who made a sensor. They are also likely not going to engage in public let alone any conversations on if it is custom or off the shelf.

Leading a sales team who negotiates and works between customer, engineering, manufacturing and distribution I can for a fact tell you that not all customers have access to everything we do. We do in fact hold back some items that we sell direct into the market and don't want a customer competing with us. We make available other products they can sell but are not a direct match to what we have under our brand. It would be foolish to think Sony for example doesn't do this with sensors.

Even if you assume Sony never made cameras but did a design of a new sensor they may only sell it to some customers, they may sell it to anyone. It depends on production capabilities, supply contracts, who will pay what for that production capacity and how close of a relationship do you have with x customer.

Lastly, saying someone has a "lab" doesn't mean that lab is doing from scratch R&D or more validating design of an off the shelf product.

 

[Nimi]

I’m OK with agreeing to disagree. But I would be curious how you would know for a fact that Sony Semi and Sony Imaging are that connected. Are you an executive at Sony? In any case it is indisputable that Nikon has its own sensor research and its own sensor patents and that Nikon and Sony worked together for many years before becoming rivals.

I consulted to a medical Imaging company on sensor selection for one of their devices and ended up sourcing CMOS sensors from Sony. Identical dynamics.

In the CMOS world, there are just a handful of truly innovative players, Sony being among them. They also happen to have a foundry. They let partners like Apple take credit for the design, but in fact it's more like consumers going to a car dealership and picking options. That's how I think about the relationship with Nikon and Sony. I've never seen a joint patent. I've never seen a recent Nikon sensor exceeding any specs of a similarly-priced Sony. I've never seen a sensor feature in a Nikon that's not already in a Sony.

 

[DavidT]

I consulted to a medical Imaging company on sensor selection for one of their devices and ended up sourcing CMOS sensors from Sony. Identical dynamics.

In the CMOS world, there are just a handful of truly innovative players, Sony being among them. They also happen to have a foundry. They let partners like Apple take credit for the design, but in fact it's more like consumers going to a car dealership and picking options. That's how I think about the relationship with Nikon and Sony. I've never seen a joint patent. I've never seen a recent Nikon sensor exceeding any specs of a similarly-priced Sony. I've never seen a sensor feature in a Nikon that's not already in a Sony.

Bingo

 

[Nimi]

I will drop my 2 cents here from a manufacture/distributor profession. In my industry there is some cross pollinating and we private label for brands across multiple industries and uses. In some cases it is a relabeled product, in others it isn't and is a custom design. The consumer will not know what is a relabel and what is custom. Depending on what is different and how the company buying it markets it you may see some design changes.

Now taking that and applying it to a camera sensor, Nikon like my customers won't publicly disclose who made a sensor. They are also likely not going to engage in public let alone any conversations on if it is custom or off the shelf.

Leading a sales team who negotiates and works between customer, engineering, manufacturing and distribution I can for a fact tell you that not all customers have access to everything we do. We do in fact hold back some items that we sell direct into the market and don't want a customer competing with us. We make available other products they can sell but are not a direct match to what we have under our brand. It would be foolish to think Sony for example doesn't do this with sensors.

Even if you assume Sony never made cameras but did a design of a new sensor they may only sell it to some customers, they may sell it to anyone. It depends on production capabilities, supply contracts, who will pay what for that production capacity and how close of a relationship do you have with x customer.

Lastly, saying someone has a "lab" doesn't mean that lab is doing from scratch R&D or more validating design of an off the shelf product.

We were typing at the same time. You're describing the CMOS world, with players like Sony and Samsung driving the bus.

 

[Nimi]

My sentiments are similar and unless Nikon is able to spin off and produce higher quality sensors less expensively (doubtful) they are likely linked to the Sony products. Beyond DR which has been proven tricky to expand especially as the move has been to stacked sensors and faster read outs, the real opportunity IMHO is to dovetail off of Canon's move into producing a "cross sensor" in the MILC. Depending on patent restrictions, I would suspect that Sony is working on something functionally equivalent.

There are two other players who might prove to be distruptors: Forza/STMicro who produce 8k global shutter sensors for Red and most recently the Big Sky camera sensor for Sphere (300mp, 15 stops of DR) and Onsemi which makes the best cinema sensors in the world (for Arri). Sony and Samsung have the advantage of leveraging their phone sensors, and the economies of scale to make cheaper sensors.

 

[DavidT]

We were typing at the same time. You're describing the CMOS world, with players like Sony and Samsung driving the bus.

Interesting thing is I am not in that world but manufacturing, design, distribution don't change with the widget. Most people don't really understand how this world works, lots of assumptions are made and most are far from correct. It is like you drive any brand car. You think that brand has a factory that makes every part on your car? Yeah no, short of frames and panels most car manufactures are more assemblers than true manufacturing from raw materials. Just as Sony and Nikon and the rest don't manufacture all the bits and parts that make up a camera.

 

[John Navitsky]

Beyond DR which has been proven tricky to expand especially as the move has been to stacked sensors and faster read outs,

FWIW, we might see Nikon addressing DR through the Red IP which if I understand correctly is basically bracketing of a sort. It seems they quickly take a second image and then augment the color information by using data from both images. This seems feasible with the current stacked sensor.

 

[Nimi]

FWIW, we might see Nikon addressing DR through the Red IP which if I understand correctly is basically bracketing of a sort. It seems they quickly take a second image and then augment the color information by using data from both images. This seems feasible with the current stacked sensor.

Sort of. That's their HDRx "tecnology" which like many things they did was on the theatric side. Canon has a similar feature. Some say it softens the image. With that said, the native dynamic range of their sensors, especially the Raptor is about 2 stops higher than the best photographic sensors. Different architecture which might or might not have a high enough frame rate for photography. That's the state-of-the-art tradeoff.

 

[TurtleCat]

If it’s one of those thing I’ve learned it’s that no one’s opinion changes based on the internet. I can easily look up Nikon patents and have seen the articles on their sensor research. Others like Thom Hogan have commented on their coopetition and sensor technology intertwining. In the end, though, I simply don’t care enough about it or to debate it.

 

[Anjin San]

If one is a Sony shooter…the A1 2 makes sense…for a Nikon shooter I’m not sure that the advantages whatever that are are worth the cost of switching. Either makes excellent images…and in some situate Sony will win and in others the Nikon (or Canon) will win…but it isn’t universal and with todays gear other considerations…lens lineup, menu system, system familiarity etc…are far more important criteria.

 

[Lee R]

If one is a Sony shooter…the A1 2 makes sense…for a Nikon shooter I’m not sure that the advantages whatever that are are worth the cost of switching. Either makes excellent images…and in some situate Sony will win and in others the Nikon (or Canon) will win…but it isn’t universal and with todays gear other considerations…lens lineup, menu system, system familiarity etc…are far more important criteria.

I honestly couldn't tell what image came from an A1ii or a Z9 or a R5ii unless it has a label. They're all super similar in output.

Looking through gallery's I can't see one system that has any advantage in end output or some type of shot you can only get on one of them. They all get the shots.

 

[Anjin San]

I honestly couldn't tell what image came from an A1ii or a Z9 or a R5ii unless it has a label. They're all super similar in output.

Looking through gallery's I can't see one system that has any advantage in end output or some type of shot you can only get on one of them. They all get the shots.

Yep. At this point…IQ isn’t the deciding factor. Lens options, ergonomics, price, what you already have that can be used on a new body as opposed to a system switch, and which menu system you either are more used to or prefer really count for far more of the decision.

 

[Lee R]

Yep. At this point…IQ isn’t the deciding factor. Lens options, ergonomics, price, what you already have that can be used on a new body as opposed to a system switch, and which menu system you either are more used to or prefer really count for far more of the decision.

Honestly the biggest factor for Z was having the option of the Zf and Z8 combo. Lenses too but Canon and Sony have nothing like that combination.

Sonys are missing a top screen which is a hard no for me no matter what tech they put in there.

 

[Paul T]

For me I am brand agnostic but very sensitive to costs related to going from one brand to another chasing the latest technological advances.

Technology leap frogs so what one Camera company comes up with one year the next camera company comes up with the following year and on it goes.

I shoot Nikon and for one reason only. Ergonomics. When I bought my first DSLR I went into the camera outlet picked up a Nikon and then a Canon body. I then attached a lens to each body to see how they felt in my hand.

I also played around with the menu and control system of each to see which I was more comfortable with.

I obviously felt more at home with the Nikon. I didn’t compare the technology as I knew if one was behind the other in some areas the other would catch up at some point.

So to cut a long story short base your decision on how comfortable you are with
1. each body with your preferred lens attached and
2. the menu system
3. and perhaps the lenses that are available

wallah your decision is made.

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[HotGates]

Former owner of a Sony A1 here, now shooting with Z8 & 600/800pf lenses. Zero complaints.. the Z8 AF is close enough to the A1 (in some cases one bests the other and vica versa) but overall the Z8 is a ridiculously amazing camera for under $4k... The A1 and A1ii while great don't interest me, because I can get any shot I need with my Z8 that I could previously with my A1. I moved to Nikon for their PF lenses , and I'm glad I did. For a while I had pondered on the idea of the 300GM with teleconverters, but the idea of running such a nice lens with a TC attached for 600mm reach , 90% or more of the time turned me away. In the end I tried the 600pf & 800pf lenses through a friend and I knew right then thats what I needed. That said comparing a new not yet released body to cameras that are over 1 yr old isn't exactly fair. And don't think Nikon won't answer with a Z9ii and eventually Z8ii in the near future. We know they will... Hence why I prefer to marry the glass and date the body! The body's come and go, Glass is for the long haul

Exactly, I have the Z9 and sold my Z8 to purchase the R5II and kind of regretted it as I really had no problem with the focusing of the Nikon I guess I was just a little mad because Nikons pre capture is in jpeg.
Don't get caught up listening to canon or Sony shooters saying Nikon is way behind because it's not, it's right up there with em the only difference I see between my R5II and Z9 is subject detect is a tad quicker on the R5II big deal as far as system goes if Nikon had pre capture raw I would sell the Canon. Also Nikon glass is a thing of beauty.

 

[TonyF]

I'm certainly enjoying the Z8. I've sold all my Sony gear and using a Z8 with 600/800 PF lenses. The A1 is probably a better all round camera for stills, but not by much. I got sick of Sony screwing up fw updates. I'm sure the A1 II will (initially) be the best high megapixel solution for birds in flight and wildlife but I'm not prepared to take the same fw risks again as I did with the A1. Subjective I know, but I think the Sony Raw files are a little bit better than Nikon and my 600F4 obviously beats the PFs but again not by that much. (I'm easy to find on Flickr if you want to see the difference between shooting Sony A1/Nikon Z8) I do hope Sony gave y'all pre-capture and video subject detectiona as fw update for your gen 1 A1s. I'd be pretty gutted if I had to pay $6,499 to get those two features.

 

[Paul Pilch]

I shoot the Sony A1 with the 300mm f/2.8 +/- 1.4 & 2.0 TCs which works well for so many situations. Moreover, it's about the same weight as the Z8, 600 PF combo. Of course, as Larry S. notes, there's no absolute right choice as all the gear is excellent.

 

[kybob]

I second the A1 ii with the 300GM and teleconverters will be an unbeatable combination. The lens camera will be so much lighter than the Z8 and any combination of lens except maybe a Nikon 70-200 but the Sony 70-200 GM ii is like a feather compared to the Nikon. I traded most of my Nikon gear for Sony because of the weight. As I have aged and bad back (small planes do not allow roller camera bags typically) I looked for lighter gear. the Sony 600 f/4 is one of the lightest lenses in it class. The Sony 300 GM weight is about the same as the Nikon 70-200 and the size is just as small. I took this lens on safari with teleconverters and was amazed at how easy it was was to use and the images are incredible. It is one lens that putting a teleconverter on I cannot see any loss in image quality.

 

[Lee R]

Exactly, I have the Z9 and sold my Z8 to purchase the R5II and kind of regretted it as I really had no problem with the focusing of the Nikon I guess I was just a little mad because Nikons pre capture is in jpeg.
Don't get caught up listening to canon or Sony shooters saying Nikon is way behind because it's not, it's right up there with em the only difference I see between my R5II and Z9 is subject detect is a tad quicker on the R5II big deal as far as system goes if Nikon had pre capture raw I would sell the Canon. Also Nikon glass is a thing of beauty.

The channel Wild Alaska on YouTube has been extremely honest comparing the R5ii/Z8/9 and he has A-1 and A1ii will be on there eventually. All he does is shoot wildlife and he's showed the AF differences in great detail. He has the Z8/9 bird AF as slightly ahead of the R5ii right now and animal slightly ahead on the R5ii between them, but extremely close overall.

Influencers blow up the differences as night and day but these cameras are way closer together in reality. If anyone can't get shots on any of these systems you have work to do on your skills to be honest.

The posts about weight differences are a real thing and if weights becoming a factor then the lightest system makes total sense.

 

[groob]

After thinking about it, if cost is a consideration at all, I wouldn’t go with Sony.
In my opinion, the value proposition just isn’t there. You can get 98% (or maybe 105% in some circumstances) of the capability in a Canon R5ii but pay $2300 less. You could also pay almost $4,000 less and get 95% of the A1ii’s performance in a Z8. As others have noted, don’t get sucked into the nonsense that there’s a large gap in autofocus function across the brands.

Putting aside lenses, which I think is actually the most important consideration overall, I would make my decision based on pre-capture: how badly do I need it, and how long am I willing to wait. Obviously, Canon and Sony have now implemented workable versions, and Nikon’s, in my view, is not really usable. But that just means that Nikon’s is coming, either via firmware or in the next version cameras. I’d imagine that it will not arrive until the Z9ii, which I agree with the above posters will probably come next fall/winter.

If you prefer Nikon’s lens ecosystem and can “putter” along until Nikon releases a camera with RAW (or my preference would be HE/HE*) pre-capture, then I’d go with Nikon. If you’re ready to upgrade now and can’t live without pre-capture, I’d go with Canon. Yes, Sony has a larger lens ecosystem that is open to 3rd parties, but I wouldn’t swallow the price premium of the A1ii. I have lots of issues with how Canon has approached this generation of lenses, but it has plenty of options that would allow me to get any shot I wanted.

 

[Paul Pilch]

Im primarily a wildlife/bird photographer and the precapture mode allows you to get shots you would otherwise never get like this hummingbird taking off. I took this shot with the a9iii and now Im considering if I should keep it along with the a1ii. For hummingbirds and flycatchers, 60 fps is really useful with the lower MP caveat.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[Lee R]

Im primarily a wildlife/bird photographer and the precapture mode allows you to get shots you would otherwise never get like this hummingbird taking off. I took this shot with the a9iii and now Im considering if I should keep it along with the a1ii. For hummingbirds and flycatchers, 60 fps is really useful with the lower MP caveat.
View attachment 101627

The A9iii has 60 and 120 FPS at full resolution which is a real advantage to have with pre-capture in RAW. It's definitely the fastest camera out there for RAW usage. I've used 60 and 120 FPS in JPEG on the Z8 and it's pretty great what you can get at those framerates but JPEG is JPEG and you have to nail the settings and in low light the noise will damage the image because a RAW processed with Ai Denoise is superior. In bright light you can get very usable results with JPEG and good settings in advance, but obviously RAW is great and we all love it.

That said I've had to adapt with the Z8 because pre-capture is JPEG so I just leveraging the unlimited buffer and hold the shutter down for minutes on end will get through the same moments. You have to scroll some shots afterward but I still get anything I would have with pre-capture JPEG at 20 FPS.

What I cannot get is the 30/60/120 RAW that the A9iii can and that is a real advantage for RAW. The Canon R5ii honestly is a better value with similar capability to the A-1ii. But the A9iii is on its own standing out. It's 24 megapixels but it genuinely presents a capability that Canon and Nikon do not have at this time.

The RAW pre-capture is the ultimate convenience in not having to scroll through remotely close to the same image count a the end of the day.

If I had the A9iii I would not let it go, it's a unique camera in the market right now.

One of the shots with a macro this summer at 60 FPS. I would love to have RAW for this but 60 and 120 FPS are very nice to have. This one was manual zone focus on a 100mm macro too, fancy algorithms not needed when a subject has to pass through a 60/120 FPS zone of focus.

 

[Alistair]

The A9iii has 60 and 120 FPS at full resolution which is a real advantage to have with pre-capture in RAW. It's definitely the fastest camera out there for RAW usage. I've used 60 and 120 FPS in JPEG on the Z8 and it's pretty great what you can get at those framerates but JPEG is JPEG and you have to nail the settings and in low light the noise will damage the image because a RAW processed with Ai Denoise is superior. In bright light you can get very usable results with JPEG and good settings in advance, but obviously RAW is great and we all love it.

That said I've had to adapt with the Z8 because pre-capture is JPEG so I just leveraging the unlimited buffer and hold the shutter down for minutes on end will get through the same moments. You have to scroll some shots afterward but I still get anything I would have with pre-capture JPEG at 20 FPS.

What I cannot get is the 30/60/120 RAW that the A9iii can and that is a real advantage for RAW. The Canon R5ii honestly is a better value with similar capability to the A-1ii. But the A9iii is on its own standing out. It's 24 megapixels but it genuinely presents a capability that Canon and Nikon do not have at this time.

The RAW pre-capture is the ultimate convenience in not having to scroll through remotely close to the same image count a the end of the day.

If I had the A9iii I would not let it go, it's a unique camera in the market right now.

One of the shots with a macro this summer at 60 FPS. I would love to have RAW for this but 60 and 120 FPS are very nice to have. This one was manual zone focus on a 100mm macro too, fancy algorithms not needed when a subject has to pass through a 60/120 FPS zone of focus.

The 8.3k stills off 60FPS Nraw are very nice. Just crank up the shutter speed. But you need DVR Studio to edit them.

 

[Anjin San]

Ergonomics

Me too…I shot Canon F1 in college and didn’t shoot at all for 15 years or so…then got a P&S before starting with a NI,on D7000, then D7100, D7500, Z7II and then Z9, Z8, and sole the Z9 for a second Z8. Wife always had my hand me downs until I got her the 2 lens Z50 kit. So…was comfortable with Nikon menus, ergonomics, and controls as well as feature names. Picked up a Sony once and didn’t like the feel or the complete I know nothing with the software..Used a Canon DSLR exactonce at a Nat Park taking a picture of a couple that asked me too…no experience with their gear since my F1 days. Since I was familiar with and liked Nikon ergonomics and menus and had lenses a,ready…much cheaper to stay with Nikon than do anything else…but TBH if I had to switch I would ,earn the new system in a bit…but based on Steve’s 80/4 rule…all brands take good shots these days assuming you’re comparing similarly priced/featured models…sometimes a brand is better for xx but for yy the other one wins…but even the ’losers’ in those cases still get the job done just fine.

I shoot almost all RAW and for wildlife rarely am not at 20 FPS…and occasionally shift to 30 and accept jpeg if I really need the speed Or if precapture is important…but i try to only shoot jpeg if the light is good for obvious reasons.

 

[Lee R]

The 8.3k stills off 60FPS Nraw are very nice. Just crank up the shutter speed. But you need DVR Studio to edit them.

Damn good idea, so we have 60FPS 33mp RAW basically. I used the video mode on the Z5 to get 8mp 30fps 4k stills in RAW like that, it actually lets you shoot AF-C stills in video mode. Little known feature on that camera.