Nikon Z9 + 4.1 Firmware: The New King Of Birding?

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Photographer_Bill said:
@EricKlees and @ajrmd - looking at both your images in your posts above - same place, same time, same bird/fish. However, the difference is that Eric was using a Z9 (with FW 4.1) and a 180-600mm lens while aj was using a Z8 with a 800mm PF. aj, you mentioned the Z8 struggled to maintain focus as the bird hit the water (well struggle may not be accurate since you say every frame was oof until the bird was back in the air) while Eric mentions the Z9/4.1 was able to hold eye focus the whole time. It makes me wonder if the Z8 is getting fooled by the reflection in the water whereas Z9/4.1 is not?

Here are my take aways as I look at the above shots side by side:
  • Both Z8 and Z9 (and Z lenses) take phenomenal images
  • The 180-600 zoom can hold its own even when cropped
  • Both Eric and aj have a keen eye for good location and good shots
  • The bald eagle is a magnificent creature
  • It sucks to be a fish sunning yourself near the surface of the water (though these fish might be dead or stunned given the location?)

Since the Z8 is the same "engine" as the Z9 we can only assume that Nikon is specifically holding back FW update for Z8 as they want to maintain the Z9's status as the premier ML body, so it (the Z9) is going to get the latest and greatest tweaks first and Z8 shooters will have to wait several months before those trickle into the Z8 FW, I would be surprised if Nikon offers additional enhancements to Z8 FW that the Z9 does not have when it is released, even though when the Z8 released it did have a few enhancements the Z9 had not yet had (but I believe that is because they wanted to create a stir with initial release that would persuade photographers to give it a shot). Regardless of my crystal ball predictions I am looking forward to getting the new FW update in the Z8 hopefully in early 2024.
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It also could have been differences in af area, settings, etc. Without knowing those, I wouldn't ascribe a difference to the bodies alone.
 
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ajrmd said:
So, with the cold weather arriving it is likely that more eagles will be arriving. Last week, there were more photographers than birds so hopefully that will change. First, one should call the hotline (888) 457-4076 to determine how many generators will be running (this determines the flow and likely areas where the eagles will be fishing - closer to the dam vs. downstream). Where one chooses to shoot is entirely dependent on the individual photographer. I generally aim for the "fishing pier" which is closer to the dam itself when the flows are "normal" (2 generators). That can change quickly, and I've been there when there have been unanticipated releases which will raise the water levels rapidly 3-6 feet, so be prepared. Many photographers prefer the "fence line" though I don't like the elevated position and shooting across the towers/island. When the water is really high, there will be some action near the boat launch though this is fairly rare in my experience.

As to when to arrive, weekdays are generally less crowded than weekends though as the colder weather sets in more photographers arrive. Last week there were at least 100-150 photographers on weekdays. Weekends are crazy and unless you arrive very early, you'll end up parking offsite and having to take the shuttle (bad). While many people arrive before sunrise to stake out a spot, recognize that fog/atmospherics are prevalent, and you might not be able to shoot in the earliest light. At this time of the year, the sun is typically rising almost directly down river so the early morning yields strong side lighting. Nonetheless, with the sun's trajectory, it gradually moves behind you and by early afternoon 2-4 pm you'll be on perfect sun angle. Depending on whether it is sunny or overcast, one can shoot most of the day if/when the fog/atmospherics clear. My recommendation is to plan for weekdays if possible and figure on spending a couple of days to maximize the experience. Conowingo has become a real destination, and the vibe has changed significantly from a couple of years ago. The "regulars" are still around though it is becoming more like a "festival" atmosphere. If you can filter out the nonsense and focus on the experience of hanging out and meeting some cool people and making some great images, being there is really enjoyable.
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Thanks for this great information. I had no idea it was like that.
 
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Cameron T said:
It also could have been differences in af area, settings, etc. Without knowing those, I wouldn't ascribe a difference to the bodies alone.
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Yes, it could be though if my understanding is correct, he was using the Auto Area AF with bird recognition whereas I was using large, wide with Animal on the Z8. Auto area on the Z8 would not work well in this circumstance tracking a bird against the sky, moving towards contrasty trees, and then to water. Again, of the 75 images in the sequence (so that's what, 3.75 seconds of action that I recorded) nearly all images with the exception of 6-8 near the water/strike were in focus. IMHO, the Z8's current implementation of eye detect for BIF isn't great (compared to other systems) and it frequently grabs wings, bodies, or other parts preferentially. According to Thom Hogan, the Z8 uses, "subject, body, head, eye" in its sequence as it tries to AF. Steve (and others) have demonstrated quite well that the new FW on the Z9 makes a tremendous difference for bird recognition. Can I say conclusively that the FW was solely responsible for Eric's success with the Z9 whereas my Z8 sputtered under identical conditions (with an S lens to boot)? Of course not, though I suspect and there is some supporting evidence, that it may have had something to do with it.
 
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Photographer_Bill said:
@EricKlees and @ajrmd - looking at both your images in your posts above - same place, same time, same bird/fish. However, the difference is that Eric was using a Z9 (with FW 4.1) and a 180-600mm lens while aj was using a Z8 with a 800mm PF. aj, you mentioned the Z8 struggled to maintain focus as the bird hit the water (well struggle may not be accurate since you say every frame was oof until the bird was back in the air) while Eric mentions the Z9/4.1 was able to hold eye focus the whole time. It makes me wonder if the Z8 is getting fooled by the reflection in the water whereas Z9/4.1 is not?

Here are my take aways as I look at the above shots side by side:
  • Both Z8 and Z9 (and Z lenses) take phenomenal images
  • The 180-600 zoom can hold its own even when cropped
  • Both Eric and aj have a keen eye for good location and good shots
  • The bald eagle is a magnificent creature
  • It sucks to be a fish sunning yourself near the surface of the water (though these fish might be dead or stunned given the location?)

Since the Z8 is the same "engine" as the Z9 we can only assume that Nikon is specifically holding back FW update for Z8 as they want to maintain the Z9's status as the premier ML body, so it (the Z9) is going to get the latest and greatest tweaks first and Z8 shooters will have to wait several months before those trickle into the Z8 FW, I would be surprised if Nikon offers additional enhancements to Z8 FW that the Z9 does not have when it is released, even though when the Z8 released it did have a few enhancements the Z9 had not yet had (but I believe that is because they wanted to create a stir with initial release that would persuade photographers to give it a shot). Regardless of my crystal ball predictions I am looking forward to getting the new FW update in the Z8 hopefully in early 2024.
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True but I've rarely ever had that issue with the Z9 when on earlier FW versions like 1.10 or 2.0. Forms has that issue standing next to be as well has this issue. But they no longer do with FW 4.10. but my friend Dave sitting next to be on this same sequence has the issue ajrmd has were the pick up went soft with his Z9+600f4TC in bird SD.
 
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EricKlees said:
True but I've rarely ever had that issue with the Z9 when on earlier FW versions like 1.10 or 2.0. Forms has that issue standing next to be as well has this issue. But they no longer do with FW 4.10. but my friend Dave sitting next to be on this same sequence has the issue ajrmd has were the pick up went soft with his Z9+600f4TC in bird SD.
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Was he also shooting in Auto Area AF with similar settings? What was surprising to me was that the AF tracked the bird perfectly on the approach, bank, and dive, only to start FF'ing as it approached the water with its talons forward, through the strike and until it was airborne when it snapped back onto focus.
 
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ajrmd said:
Was he also shooting in Auto Area AF with similar settings? What was surprising to me was that the AF tracked the bird perfectly on the approach, bank, and dive, only to start FF'ing as it approached the water with its talons forward, through the strike and until it was airborne when it snapped back onto focus.
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Yep the exact same settings
 
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EricKlees said:
That is much much improved with the new Bird SD you will eventually get next year for the Z8. I am having no issues with the AF keeping lock on the Eagles, or any bird like landing ducks, at the water. If you go again and have a Z9, I would highly bring that instead. I live 25 min from The Dam so this time of year I am there often. These were shot with my Z9 and 180-600mm @600mm and cropped about 80%

View attachment 75235View attachment 75236
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Beautiful Eric! Well done!👍👍👍
 
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JoelKlein said:
Get both out again next to each other, and try again. With a third photographer observing and video documenting it…
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We've been shooting together since we both got the Z9 January 2022. I've always had much more consistent success with the Z9 than Dave. Same subject standing next to each other. We shoot a minimum 2-3 times a month together
 
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EricKlees said:
We can't. He's been having some slight issues with the from day one with his Z9. He is older and wonder if he doesn't keep the subject in the EVF as stable. It's about the only thing i can think of
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This will guarantee the af (and getting perfect focus) is worse. Any af system does best when the subject is kept as stable as possible in a location.

If you swap gear for a day, I'll bet he'll still have problems and you won't.
 
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EricKlees said:
We've been shooting together since we both got the Z9 January 2022. I've always had much more consistent success with the Z9 than Dave. Same subject standing next to each other. We shoot a minimum 2-3 times a month together
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The #1 problem that plagues the Z8/Z9 is user error. A TON of people who in the past could barely operate a D500 to its max potential upgraded to a camera that is 10X as sophisticated as a D500 and has a the added complication of going from mirrored to mirrorless. An entire new level of customization has lead to an entire new level of confusion and equipment blaming. Not saying its the issue with your friend but I am saying its a major issue in general.
 
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Wes Peterson said:
The #1 problem that plagues the Z8/Z9 is user error. A TON of people who in the past could barely operate a D500 to its max potential upgraded to a camera that is 10X as sophisticated as a D500 and has a the added complication of going from mirrored to mirrorless. An entire new level of customization has lead to an entire new level of confusion and equipment blaming. Not saying its the issue with your friend but I am saying its a major issue in general.
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I'm well aware of this. I've been teaching Z9 setups and techniques since February of 2022. There are plenty of people I've seen with the Z9 and 800pf or the 600f4TC and can't get good shots.

Getting top gear only makes certain the gear doesn't get in your way. It's still the 8-12 inches behind the camera
 
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EricKlees said:
I'm well aware of this. I've been teaching Z9 setups and techniques since February of 2022. There are plenty of people I've seen with the Z9 and 800pf or the 600f4TC and can't get good shots.

Getting top gear only makes certain the gear doesn't get in your way. It's still the 8-12 inches behind the camera
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To a degree that is correct though I would be curious to compare the two sets of captures (yours and Dave's) to determine whether the differences were related to panning technique, subject framing changes, or other factors. In my circumstance, there was no technique deviation, panning was smooth as evidenced by the consistent centering of the subject throughout the series with the only notable deviation in af for the 6-8 frames during the strike. Interestingly, my R3/R5 would never act this way, though the R7 frequently behaved similarly and it was largely unusable for diving birds.
 
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ajrmd said:
To a degree that is correct though I would be curious to compare the two sets of captures (yours and Dave's) to determine whether the differences were related to panning technique, subject framing changes, or other factors. In my circumstance, there was no technique deviation, panning was smooth as evidenced by the consistent centering of the subject throughout the series with the only notable deviation in af for the 6-8 frames during the strike. Interestingly, my R3/R5 would never act this way, though the R7 frequently behaved similarly and it was largely unusable for diving birds.
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I'm sure it's technique and I've said as much to Dave. I never have this issue with my Z9. My hit rate is easily in the 90%+
 
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EricKlees said:
We've been shooting together since we both got the Z9 January 2022. I've always had much more consistent success with the Z9 than Dave. Same subject standing next to each other. We shoot a minimum 2-3 times a month together
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Good to see you on here Eric. I wasn't sure if were on this one. I was hoping you would be and could possibly address @JoelKlein and his difficulties.
 
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