Please stop brand bragging / bashing

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Some people just can't help themselves. As this site ages, it attracts more traffic, and with more traffic, we're likely to get more who are excessively proud of their brand of gear. If a little hint doesn't stop it from going on, ignoring the source certainly does.

All aside, I don't see as much here as I have on other sites.
 
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Hut2 said:
I wholeheartedly prefer using my A1 over waiting by the mailbox. This is a matter of truth.
I don’t think that is bashing and certainly not a reason to upset any person. But…..😆
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The local camera store called today to let me know my second Z9 arrived today. I don’t know what all this waiting is about. 😊 Before anyone who is still waiting gets upset, I turned it down.
 
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abc123brian said:
I knew Whiskey was behind me in line so it’s possible it helped him get his. The local dealer won’t ship them so he would have been willing to pick it up.
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Ya' think? At 2:35 this afternoon, you messaged me that you declined your Z9 from the same store I had my order with. At 2:40 this afternoon, the store notified me that my camera was ready for me to pick it up. Now all I have to do is figure out when I can make the trip to pick it up; after I was down there on Monday, too. :giggle:

Thanks, Brian!!!! (y)
 
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Whiskeyman said:
Ya' think? At 2:35 this afternoon, you messaged me that you declined your Z9 from the same store I had my order with. At 2:40 this afternoon, the store notified me that my camera was ready for me to pick it up. Now all I have to do is figure out when I can make the trip to pick it up; after I was down there on Monday, too. :giggle:

Thanks, Brian!!!! (y)
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As much as I would have enjoyed having a second, I don’t really have a reason. I know you will put it to better use and I can use the money for some Z lenses.
 
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Whiskeyman said:
I'd better just figure out how to use the thing first! Don't you think so? I guess that while I'm waiting to go pick it up, I should go ahead and buy Steve's Nikon Mirrorless Camera Autofocus book to get a bit of a head start on it.
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You didn’t have a Z before? Steve hasn’t updated the book for the Z9 yet, but it will still help. To start, I’d use Wide Area S and L with and without subject detection as they work well for almost everything I’ve tried.
 
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Hut2 said:
Yeah because I was super serious... jesus the thinkpol is thick in here
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Duuuuude! I got it from your :cool:. I should have put a winkie emojie ;) after my previous post! 😁 😁

And how did my statement get attributed to RichF? Wierd....Or did I write the exact same thing he did? Not to be a thinkpol, though!!! :p
 
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Abinoone said:
....I'm inspired by folks who maximize their enjoyment and manage to get great shots with the kit they have, such as a good friend who shoots with a D500 and a 200-500, and often manages to get amazing shots.
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lol - I wasn't sure if you were being serious or joking there. The D500 and 200-500mm is an awesome combo than many would covet!
 
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I’m a new member. One of the reasons (not the only reason) I joined this forum was to talk about and hear shop talk on gear. Sure, some people like to brag about their gear. So what. They are excited about it or whatever. Can’t say I blame them. So far I haven’t seen anyone bash gear for the purpose of making themselves feel superior or anything like that. It’s usually an experiential thing and in the spirit of constructive criticism at worst. I’m sure people can rub others the wrong way. It happens to us all. I know I can get on peoples nerves sometimes myself.. haha.. I’ve been on many forums throughout the years that cover a variety of different things. The people on this forum behave like choir boys and girls comparatively. For whatever that’s worth.
 
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Rassie said:
I've been following many of the posts where some of the features of specific cameras are touted to be better than others. Just recently there was a discussion on this forum about Sony A1 as a replacement for a Nikon D850, and then I threw the Nikon Z9 in as an option for consideration, and there was a discussion about how good each of the A1 and Z9 was regarding eye-af tracking, etc. Sometimes such comparative discussions can be a good thing, sometimes not. I reckon it's very important to consider carefully what the OP is saying or asking so that we specifically deal with that in the ensuing discussion. It is easy for any one of us to say the wrong thing, or say something that's not relevant to the discussion, and cause offense in the process.

My photography hobby started back around 1970 with a Kodak Instamatic. From there I progressed to other point-and-shoot cameras, then to a Pentax SLR circa 1978, then the first digital point and shoot in 2000, then on to DSLR's. Never during this long hobby of mine had I ever had a top of the line camera and lenses since I had to balance my needs rather than wants against the fact that photography is a hobby for me and not a profession.

So today I use a Nikon Z6II and a Nikkor 200-500mm F/5.6 for wildlife and BIF work. Would I love a Nikkor 500mm PF F/5.6 lens? Absolutely. Can I justify its cost? Not really, especially since I hope to source the Nikkor Z 200-600mm as soon as that launches. So in the meantime I have to make do with a less than stellar performing lens for BIF work. The lack of reach I experience with this lens on the full frame Z6II versus the DX Nikon DSLR's I used in the past also is problematic. For that reason I recently acquired a TC-14E III to extend my reach. So here I am with a body that's not best suited for shooting fast-moving wildlife, coupled with a slow-focusing lens, and accurate focus becomes spotty with the teleconverter mounted. I drool with desire when I think of the A1, R5, or Z9, but I won't purchase one of those unless I unexpectedly inherit a lot of cash from some distant relative. :)

So while the fortunate folks on this forum go out with the top cameras from Nikon, Sony or Canon and they machine-gun the flying birds and fast-movers, and get a keeper rate upwards of 80% or more, I have to work that much harder to get a keeper rate of less than 50%. But man, the satisfaction of getting at least a few keepers from such an outing is for me that much more rewarding than it might have been had I been getting a sky-high keeper rate because of the mechanical abilities of a super camera/lens combo. It's easy to become used to such great capabilities in a camera and start taking them for granted. Now if Nikon can improve the subject tracking of my Z6II with firmware and provide me with a more capable lens, I would probably be relatively satisfied, even while I will still envy those who can spend the bigger bucks on the more capable gear.
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You are absolutely right, the satisfaction to get a good shot with a combo that is not the state of the art is huge.
My experience as photographer is very similar to yours even if I have a Z9 now, but I experienced to use the Z6II/Z7/D500/D810 also for wildlife shooting.
In my opinion knowledge of places and species, in order to put the photographer in the best condition to act, is at the top of the list. Second place is for the ability of the photographer and the deep knowledge of the camera capabilities the rest follows.
 
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As many know, brand envy is one thing, but it's an another matter entirely for to sell out/trade in on'e gear, and still afford the high cameras and lenses of a different Mount - outdoor photographers especially. This applies especially to the latest flagship cameras let alone fast telephoto lenses. I suspect quite a few of us could only afford higher end Pro systems toward the end of our careers, for the well known reasons of competing fiscal demands. In an ideal world, (and a ZtL adapter did the AF reliably) I would own a selection of fast Leica SL primes, but reality caps this notion!

Time again, frustrations with the unavailability and late shipping of a product(s) have a tendency for yet more forum threads of the boring '**** is doomed...'. There's also the delays in released products. There was Nikon-bashing across all forums pre Z9 release, dismissing the Z AF system . There has also been far too much baiting of Nikon owners by the posting of puerile comparisons of different brands of camera by some talking head chasing youtube clicks.... This happened and happens in this Fourm (e.g. when the dedicated Z9 thread degenerating into Brand x is better etc), although this timely thread calmed the waters.... In this respect, BCG is a far far friendlier forum than others - IME the fredmiranda Nikon forum became uninhabitable end 2021 with the unmoderated trolling and brand-bashing by sony evangelists. Biased moderation is the primary reason, and certainly the very last place on the www I would pay a subscription for). DPReview has its issues but moderation has become quicker and tighter. Ironically, IME, the DSLR-MILC war was the major problem on DPR that drove some of us off the Nikon Mirrorless forum, especially in the first months post Z Day (August 2018).

Official Nikon Z9 Launch, Info, and Discussion Thread

I guess everyone but that guy had sharp photos from day one! Go figure! :DWell, the guy was shooting dog(s) in the snow. We have heard from others the a1 doesn't like snow. Maybe it doesnt like dogs either.:unsure:
bcgforums.com bcgforums.com

In all such threads, the pages of responses follow, saying 'that's why I switched/ planning to switch to brand x' etc. If some want to discuss this stuff but please respect the Thread subject and its primary posters. Then the readership is reminded about universal realities i.e. unexpected demands, finite capacity, and above all constraints of the pandemic and semiconductor shortages....bearing in mind the past and current Cov19 outbreaks in key Asian countries where these products are made, or rather should be.
 
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To follow...imagine if the true buying power of the population becomes known; it will likely confirm that only a minority of photographers can even afford to switch systems. One exception are those positioned to trade in a budget entry-level system for much more expensive top end telephotos, fast UWides, and the compatible camera(s) etc etc, and long time photographers who've had the years-multiplied-by income to invest in two or more systems.

Bottom Line: to say it again it is very likely the case that most wildlife photographers are locked/trapped in their current system and/or saving for the single system they can afford. The pro wildlife photographers I know have rarely if ever switched in decades. Considering all the other overheads, trading in for all new is too costly (even if some items are Used), Travel budgets, for one, are onerous and rising. Retailers are only winners of system switching, and those of who finally find the Used bargain(s) to expand one's own system.

The optics have always been the crux of one's camera system; and each Lens-Mount is the real lock that cages respective investors within that system. This was true decades ago (when I started in 1983). The sad, sobering reality that has never changed, and for wildlife photographers. To conclude - Keep the Lenses; Change the Bodies
 
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As always there is more than one side to this question. By and large the majority of folks here understand and appreciate an exchange of experiences, opinions and diverse perspectives when they are based in someone’s actual experience. I think that’s the majority of us here.

Then there are indeed a few who engage in true brand bashing, maybe because they enjoy it or are in very serious need of self affirmation and validation. Who knows. But for the most part they don’t last long here because there isn’t much tolerance for it.

And then there is a third group, that has spoiled my enjoyment of this forum far more than any other and the reason why I don’t share my experience with various brands anymore here (unless it’s in private messages). They are the self-appointed comparison-police who tolerate no debate of any kind, and no comparison of any kind while hiding behind the so called brand bashers to justify their systematic take down of people who actually had the luck and privilege to handle many different systems and are willing to share their experience.

These comparison bashers are equally toxic to the health of this forum, more active than brand-bashers and yet over the past couple weeks we have had a pair of threads calling for stopping brand bashing but none calling for putting a stop to constructive comparison bashing.

So there, if we could avoid shooting from the hip at either end of the spectrum and focused on learning from each other, as the majority seem to want, it would be really awesome.
 
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Hut2 said:
So basically you’re upset because people got tired of waiting on a decent AF and switched to Sony or Canon and you want to control what they say on here?
It’s no secret which AF has been chosen by those that own both systems. Regardless of feelings or affordability
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With all respect, your comment is exactly the type of comment that grides a person who actually takes pictures and does not use the brand that you espouse to be superior.
I will try to be specific as to why a statement like this leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and suggests that I must be naive, inferior, or dumb for continuing to shoot whatever I shoot.
To quote: "people got tired of waiting for decent AF."
When you make a statement like this it reveals a degree of ignorance on you part. To say that the Z6/Z7/Z6II/Z7II/D500/D850/D500 do not have "decent AF" then stimulates the need to explain that they actually do have GREAT AF. Is the AF superior to Sony or Canon?... In some cases yes in other cases no.
The distinction of the AF superiority is in a limited case scenario... auto tracking / animal locking / eye AF.
However, the AF modules in the most recent Nikon Z and DSLR bodies in remarkable. Now, to be clear, my first AF body was a film F4, so my perspective about "decent" is quite different that someone else's perspective.
I managed to produce published images, photo essays, and articles of actively moving subjects then... and continue to do so today. Surprisingly, I can somehow photograph running and flying animals with cameras like my Z6ii/Z7ii without the "decent AF" that you have.
While the Z9 remains the best Nikon offers, this camera and the A1 are tremendous investments. With a range of $5500 to $6100 pretax, one has to wonder if the acquisition of "decent AF" is worth the expense. The alternative would be to purchase an A9II w/ its 24MP chip for $4200, or in my case buy both a Z6II and Z7II for a little less than $5000. Clearly, I decided that the versatility of owning two cameras that specialize in different things was more important than have "decent AF."

Good shooting,
bruce
 
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There is a always a range of what decent AF means to each individual. My standards are quite high. Taken yesterday....

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You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.
 
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Hut2 said:
So basically you’re upset because people got tired of waiting on a decent AF and switched to Sony or Canon and you want to control what they say on here?
It’s no secret which AF has been chosen by those that own both systems. Regardless of feelings or affordability
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You make it sound like decent AF in mirrorless has been around for a long time. When Sony introduced the first A7 camera 9 years ago, the AF was horrendous. This trend continued until they released the A9 in 2017, which still took firmware updates to improve to where DSLR users said this is acceptable/good/does somethings better, so let’s say 2018. The Canon R5 and R6 in mid 2020 were were most people started to look at mirrorless seriously. Sony’s A1 launched in January 2021 and offered the most impressive stats yet and confirmed the future was mirrorless. Nikon released the Z9 in December 2021, or less than 1 year from the A1 and just over a year from the R5. It might also be important, but unrelated to mention the R5 had some heating issues and the A1 an EVF sensor issue at release that were fixed or better controlled with firmware updates. The Z9 likely has an issue or two as well that will be addressed through firmware. What Nikon doesn’t have that both Sony and Canon do have, is a similar auto tracking in mid level cameras like the Z6/Z7. My personal opinion is Canon still wins here over Sony or Nikon and where Nikon needs the most work.

When people on this forum decided to spend $10-$40k to switch to the A1, they justified that by saying it would be multiple years before Nikon caught up which turned out to be untrue. While you may argue for BIF, the Z9 is not quite as good, but then you cannot get upset when someone says the Z9 worked better for a moose in a snowstorm. Everyone has different needs and I know owning the latest and greatest is cool, some could wait less than a year, others couldn’t wait more than a month. Regardless, we really aren’t talking a long wait for any of this once mirrorless got to a certain level.
 
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Hut2 said:
You know exactly what I am talking about and you choose to be offended.
I have complimented your photography many times aa well as complimented your artistic talents. If you are happy with the equipment fine. You choose to be offended over a comment about autofocus is all your problem not mine.
It's not a secret that many people in this group are dissatisfied with the Z 6 and Z7 series due to lacking AF.
Personally I am happy to spend money on a better autofocus and not wait until I am dead for any certain brand.

These threads are bullshit. I think Nikon fanatics enjoy drama and start these stupid hurt feelings threads to stir the pot.

D850,200-500
Tree Swallows by David Hutson, on Flickr
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First... thank you for appreciating my images and the time I take to make them. I am grateful for the compliment.
I, of course, know what you mean... In fact, if anyone ever reads my posts about gear and AF systems, they know that I am quite measured with my words. Furthermore, I have never stated that Nikon AF was superior to others... even when it was the best in the market. Woody clearly stated the reality... Most serious hobbiest's are tied to their gear because they are not willing to take the financial hit associated with liquidating the old to purchase the new.
Furthermore, I have always claimed my own "Sony Envy." In fact, there is a used 200-600mm G lens in my local shop, and I am considering it. I am Sony curious because I want to know if that system will bring something different to my photography.
I, however, wanted to point out why threads like these spiral out of control. By flippantly stating that people got tired of waiting for "decent AF," you inspire others to go on the defensive. This then results in a tit for tat exchange.
I think it is sufficient to state the reality... if you want AF performance that will increase your keepers with Birds in Flight, Sony has (had?) the best options. This is absolutely true... but, for many of us, the shortcomings of our current systems are more than adequate.
With respect to my own decisions... I have a limited income that forces me to make choices... travel or buy. I recently took a two week trip that probably cost about $4000. This trip included 5 full days of guided photography. Prior to choosing the trip, I had a choice... buy the Z9 (my order arrived) or travel.
Some would choose the Z9... I chose the adventure.
bruce
 
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Hut2 said:
I don't know where you get that I implied a long history. I never got upset when Steve Mathiess said that the Z9 worked a little better in snow. I said that my A1 struggled a bit that same weekend. I didn't go mirrorless until July 2021. I told Steve M he was wrong about start up times and a couple other things which I stand by.
One of the reasons I switched from Nikon DSLR was the results guys like Geoff (such as the hoodie gif in the A1 thread) were sharing and the fact I could have that camera at my door right away. At that time you told me you didn't want 150 shots in focus on one bird and I said I did. fine who cares.... another reason to not wait was my frustration with Nikon's to deliver a 500PF in a timely manner. A lens which I still love btw. It is happily going away today to another forum member who I hope will thoroughly enjoy it on his Z9.

All this nit picking aside who really cares? People take the smallest comments about a camera far too personally.
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You said people switched because they were ”tired of waiting for a decent AF” which either implies it’s been a long time or they are incredibly impatient. 🤷‍♂️ I don’t believe I said 150 in focus shots, but just 150 shots. After shooting the Z9 for a while and having 150 in focus shots of the same bird, I learned that it’s something I still don’t want. but I do see value in very short high speed burst. I don’t have a history with Nikon so I lack the frustrations you and some others share. While I had to wait 6 months for my 500mm PF, I blame some of that on Covid forcing camera stores to close. I agree people shouldn’t take the smallest comments too personally and that includes related to startup time or EVF. 😉
 
I wish there was a way to make a thread disappear off the new posts section. A simple follow/unfollow toggle for example. I know you can unwatch, but it still shows in the new posts section, which I think is how most people use the forum. I would like to click don't follow and not see the next 800 replies appear in the feed.

I like talking about anything to do with photography even if it isn't my brand, but I've had enough talk about Z cameras and A cameras for now and would like to select anything with the letter Z or A and hide all. I don't mind if others keep at it, just rather they didn't appear in my feed. But I'd still like to see threads about R cameras of course.

The other thing I'd like if anyone asked me would be to have a forum rule to not post pictures in someone else's thread without asking or being asked, except a screenshot to show the answer to a technical question. I know it's a photography forum, but that is what the presentation forums are for.
 
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Hut2 said:
Posting photos, It's kind of a put up or shut up thing isn't it??? Even the forum owner does it
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Yes, i think Steve posts by starting a thread in the presentation forum. And if someone posts their art in a presentation forum others should not steal their thunder by posting their art on top of the thread starter's art without asking. If it is in general photo I understand that a photo might answer a question, but a lot of times it is just another picture of a squirrel that is only remotely related to the topic.

Someone can be interested in discussing a photography topic without necessarily wanting to look at other people's tangentially related photographs. Just for an off the cuff example, if someone asks whether shutter priority is good, they don't necessarily need to see example photos taken with shutter priority, unless they ask for example photos.

Just saying it would be a good forum rule in my opinion: "Please don't post photos in someone else's thread without asking or being asked" Obviously it is Steve's forum and he's going to make the rules the way he likes them.
 
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