I've thought about it, but not sure there's much to say. What would you like to see in a video like that? I could use some ideas.
Pre-Capture
- Thread starter Tom Reynolds
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There's just not much you can do in my experience. The problem is that Jpegs throw out info that they deem unnecessary for the shot in as-is condition. So, maybe with the hummers they throw out shadow info you would like to use to pull up the brightness in those areas, but Jpeg processing tosses that info out since it's not necessary for the current version of the image as captured in the camera. It's not so much a software issue, as a lack of information in the file.
Thanks Steve, I suspected as much.
Nikon needs to get off the stick and allow us to save some sort of RAW files in pre capture.
Nikon needs to get off the stick and allow us to save some sort of RAW files in pre capture.
My feeling is that we'll see it with the Z8ii or Z9ii. It would be shocking if they didn't have it with the next gen cameras. I'm actually surprised the Z6iii didn't have it - although maybe it can do it and they'll "unlock" it later. Who knows?
Steve,
Actually, there is a lot to it and it takes experience.
Most cameras have two modes, AF after every shot and focus once. Both have their uses.
Typically, the focus once mode will take 120 f/s and will result in lots of wing positions. However, you need to shoot stopped down to insure focus. In my experience you get good poses but the typical goal of having the eye tack sharp doesn't happen.
In the focus every shot mode, you do get a tack sharp eye, but the bird is out of the frame in a couple of images. This means that more f/s in AF mode is important. The OM-1 will focus at 50 f/s with a Pro lens but only 25 f/s with the 100-400 zoom and the difference is astounding in some cases. This needs to be experienced.
Finally, as you have seen, filling the frame is not the key, rather predicting where the bird will spread its wings and/or do the action that you want to capture. At 50 f/s I was waiting for a Juvenile Redwing Blackbird sitting on a perch to interface with another juvenile who wanted the perch. I focused with the perched bird in the lower left of the frame expecting the interacting bird to fly in from the right. and when the action happened, I had a couple of shots where a wing wasn't clipped, both birds large in the frame with the eye of the bird tack sharp. (you probably can't see it with this very poor copy, but you can see it on my wall)
Another consideration is the continuation. Assume you are tracking a Osprey as it hits the water. Pre-capture helps but there is lots of action afterword which really need a focus every shot mode and a deep buffer. Imagine the camera writing to the card and not taking shots when the Eagle is stealing the fish from the Osprey
So, the Canon R5-2 and the Sony A1-2 will have the necessary megapixels and readout speeds BUT how fast can they focus? Can they really AF @ 50/60 f/s? Do they have a deep enough buffer to catch that thieving Eagle? Can they really track a bird across the entire frame from the lower corner to the middle of the frame? (The OM-1 mark 2 has these capabilities but the m43 sensor of 20mp is really limiting.)
I think you need an A1-2 in your hands for a bit of time to do a complete video.
Regards,
Tom
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I agree. I did some rough back-of the-envelope calculation around Labor Day and it seemed that the Z6III should have been able to support 30 fps raw precapture. I can't imagine next gen Z8/Z9 cameras without it.
Dang! Those images are simply STUNNING!
............"Capturing interesting behavior and activity becomes more [impotent] than superb image quality"......
Really? I don't think that is what you intended to say............
Thanks for the thread. I leave soon for a nice photo trip and had forgotten about using this feature!
Really? I don't think that is what you intended to say............
Thanks for the thread. I leave soon for a nice photo trip and had forgotten about using this feature!
Butlerkid-
The problem for me is that I would seriously crop Steve's photos. I would find them more pleasing if the subject birds, which are absolutely stunning, filled a much greater percent of the frame. A crop, of course will degrade the IQ which is what I am talking about.
I would have tried to shoot those supersonic little critters at 50 f/s, with AF after every shot, so the eye was tack sharp and the rest of the photo was slightly out of focus to give a feeling of depth. Then I would have cropped so that I minimized the negative space.
As you suspect my 20mp m43 camera doesn't like cropping, but I am willing to sacrifice IQ in order to get the presentation I desire.
Different strokes for different folks.
Regards,
Tom
The problem for me is that I would seriously crop Steve's photos. I would find them more pleasing if the subject birds, which are absolutely stunning, filled a much greater percent of the frame. A crop, of course will degrade the IQ which is what I am talking about.
I would have tried to shoot those supersonic little critters at 50 f/s, with AF after every shot, so the eye was tack sharp and the rest of the photo was slightly out of focus to give a feeling of depth. Then I would have cropped so that I minimized the negative space.
As you suspect my 20mp m43 camera doesn't like cropping, but I am willing to sacrifice IQ in order to get the presentation I desire.
Different strokes for different folks.
Regards,
Tom
@Tom Reynolds What focus mode has worked best for you on the Nikon's?
I do not currently shoot a Nikon. On my OM-1 I typically set the AFarea=all with subjectID=bird on and Procapture (pre-capture) set to .4 sec/unlimited @ either 25 or 50 f/s depending on the lens.
I am generally always in pre-capture with sufficient shutter speed to catch a moving bird even when I am taking a stationary image. I quickly drop the Shutte speed and decrease the zoom to get the stationary pose then quickly zoom out, increase shutter speed and recompose. (In Nikon you need two-modes that are button activated. Example Stationary= 1/500 sec, RAW, pre-capture 1/3200 sec jpeg.)
So @50fs I have a 20 frame pre-capture and a bit over 200 total frames available while @ 25 f/s I have a 10 frame pre-capture and almost 300 total frames available.
In my experience, I focus on the subject, get a lock, then decide where the action is happening and reframe to hopefully get a shot without clipping the wings. In action like an Osprey hitting the water I often full press when the bird hits the water, then immediately restart pre-capture and half-press until I like the image.
My recommendation with a Z-8/9 is to not worry about jpeg, develop the technique. You will get some cool shots, and I predict that non-photographers will love your action shots.
Tom
My beginner's guess is that if the z6iii hardware could support RAW pre-capture, Nikon wouldn't want to undercut the z8/9 feature set and affect their sales of those cameras. But their competition could force them to add it to next gen z8/9 cameras or they will lose market share. It seems like next year could be a possibility, in order to stay current?
An aside: I read in a FM old post that back in the day, you could have Nikon Service add buffer capacity (more RAM?) to a D3 for $500.
Feiertag
Well-known member
Steve, off the top of my head, how about the following topics:
- Your preferred pre-capture settings, such as, 1 second or less capture?
- Mistakes that you first made and what or how to avoid them.
- Important things to do or think about.
- Tips in general when using this option.
Steve if you decide to make the video, could you please do it with Nikon equipment. I know you don't like shooting in JPEG but there are a large number of us that own a Z8 or Z9. It would interesting to see your results.
Cheers
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fcotterill
Well-known member
There appears to be any number of wildlife photographers who don't use PreCapture, yet. Perhaps most are Nikonians and also DSLR owners (that don't have access to the feature due to design limitations).
So it will be useful to present an overview of the value of PreCapture and why some of today's photographers rely on the feature.
Some context on image management when shooting at high fps. Use the new Sony flagship as an example, and emphasize the advantages of RAW images ie you don't yet use the feature in your Nikon MILCs.
Hopefully, Nikon will grow up soon and fix the gap in RAW support.
Try processing one of the RAW files in similar lighting in NX Studio. Many of the settings you can use in NX can be used in the in-camera JPEG profile, the Picture Control section, d-lighting and noise reduction. Experiment with those on a RAW to see where you land for best you can do and then carry those over to the camera and shoot with those to get the JPEG as best you can before touching it with Lightroom as you won't have much room left to edit a JPEG. The only real issue I run into is lack of good denoise where the ai denoise tool can make a big difference on a RAW file. Good shots can be had with JPEG but you really need to get it as correct as possible on location vs in post processing.
My guess is it's something to do with the image processing pipeline. Pre-capture seems tied to video and however they're pulling stills out of video may be the problem as it may not support full size RAW files. It would be nice if they would support HIEC as that at least is 10 bit and they're more editable than JPEG. I think HEIC is related to H 265 but I might be wrong.
If they can update it in firmware it would be smart to put that out as the one major draw to the R5ii is RAW recapture. Enabling that would put the Z8 and 9 back as competitive for a while longer against that feature. Otherwise it'll be years before we see another Z8 or lower camera that has it and that's lost sales for Nikon against the R5ii over the coming years.
Feiertag
Well-known member
Everyone knows that RAW has it's advantages over JPEG. The video should pertain to what is available today for Nikon shooters. I am more excited to see JPEG than RAW results, from Steve.
Thanks -
I think the answers to those questions apply to every camera. It's tough with Nikon since I don't use JPEGs. The thing is, if it's important enough to shoot it, it's important enough to shoot it in RAW, at least for me. (LOL, in the case of pre-capture, if it's important enough to need pre-capture, it's important enough to use a Sony
JUST KIDDING!!!!! - you know I like my Nikons too)
Ha Ha, or hang around and wait for sunny weather. Not sure which would be cheaper, buy a Sony kit or move to Brazil.Thanks -
I think the answers to those questions apply to every camera. It's tough with Nikon since I don't use JPEGs. The thing is, if it's important enough to shoot it, it's important enough to shoot it in RAW, at least for me. (LOL, in the case of pre-capture, if it's important enough to need pre-capture, it's important enough to use a Sony
Feiertag
Well-known member
Thanks for the reply, Steve. Asking you to shoot in JPEG is like someone requesting that I cook their steak well done. Even though medium rare is the better choice, I reluctantly cook it the way they want it. B^)Thanks -
I think the answers to those questions apply to every camera. It's tough with Nikon since I don't use JPEGs. The thing is, if it's important enough to shoot it, it's important enough to shoot it in RAW, at least for me. (LOL, in the case of pre-capture, if it's important enough to need pre-capture, it's important enough to use a Sony
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Yep, and I ain't kidding.if it's important enough to need pre-capture, it's important enough to use a Sony
HotGates
Member
And there's Nikon giving us useless jpeg features in newer cameras, Seems like they haven't woken up yet lol, I still have my Z9 (which I truly believe they can add RAW pre capture with firmware)
And I also have the OM-1 with the M.Zuiko 150-400 that I love and just recently I purchased the Canon R5II and have pre capture set to User 2, Just love the R5II; )
And I also have the OM-1 with the M.Zuiko 150-400 that I love and just recently I purchased the Canon R5II and have pre capture set to User 2, Just love the R5II; )
Hutch
Active member
For me Nikon dropped the ball with two important settings. The lack of being able to shoot in RAW with pre-capture and being limited to one frame a second when using a flash with Focus Shift.
A lot of bird photography is done in tuff lighting conditions. Which makes shooting in RAW mandatory if you want to be able to edit and have a quality image.
I’m wondering why this can’t be implemented using HE* ?
When using Focus Shift for macro using a flash can be critical for quality images. You can’t stage lights for insects. You need to work fast so flash is mandatory. It’s common to need 60 plus images to stack. There is no way you’re going to get an insect to pose for 60 plus seconds while you shoot. Using Focus Shift requires you to have 1” sec. between shots for the flash to even fire. This should be able to easily fix with firmware. When not using Focus Shift I can shoot 10 fps with flash. So I see no reason that this is not possible with Focus Shift.
A lot of bird photography is done in tuff lighting conditions. Which makes shooting in RAW mandatory if you want to be able to edit and have a quality image.
I’m wondering why this can’t be implemented using HE* ?
When using Focus Shift for macro using a flash can be critical for quality images. You can’t stage lights for insects. You need to work fast so flash is mandatory. It’s common to need 60 plus images to stack. There is no way you’re going to get an insect to pose for 60 plus seconds while you shoot. Using Focus Shift requires you to have 1” sec. between shots for the flash to even fire. This should be able to easily fix with firmware. When not using Focus Shift I can shoot 10 fps with flash. So I see no reason that this is not possible with Focus Shift.
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Marsha Jane
Active member
I don’t know if you’d like the results, but Topaz processes JPEG.