Problems with new 500 f4 G

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Beau Cotter said:
Hello, I recently got a 500 F4 G (nikon), upgraded from the 200-500. I am experiencing some issues with it sadly. Almost every shot I get out of this lens is soft. When in an enclosed environment when I test the sharpness between this lens and the 200-500, they are pretty close in sharpness, so much that it should be impossible to tell in the field. Then, when I go out with this lens, it feels great, the AF is super snappy, and the f4 bokeh is amazing! But when I come home, I see that most, if not all of the shots I took are really soft. I have AF fine-tuned this lens, and again, in a controlled environment, it is pretty accurate and sharp, maybe not quite as sharp as the zoom but oh well. (using normal AF) What in the world is going on??? Ive tried shooting at high Shutter Speeds with VR off, and I still haven't gotten anything tack sharp, even at f/5.6!!! From all the research Ive done this prime lens should be noticeably sharper than the 200-500, but so far that has been anything but the case. Any ideas of what I could do? One thing that I did notice is that it feels like the AF motor is constantly adjusting and being super erratic compared to my zoom... (again shooting at f4 is going to have a thinner DOF so I thought a bit of this would be normal, I don't know)

I really really want to get this figured out, I love this lens but if it cant take sharp photos than I am in a major pickle!!!

Example photo below
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If the lens is used then if may have had an impact causing an element to come loose. ... 🦘
 
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May be frowned upon here lol but I got it on eBay, which I have never had any problems with before, (and I still believe it's worth it for me to get stuff on that platform.) I got it on Oct 31st, and have taken it out probably around 4 or 5 times.
So with that considered I have a feeling I should try to stick with it for a bit and really try to figure out whats the matter, rather than just trying to return it because its not working for me...
 
If you can shoot a static target on a tripod in good conditions and get a sharp result then maybe, if no and you can return it, I would return it.
 
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PhotoLover said:
I'm not sure I agree. I go down to 400, 320 handheld, occasionally a bit lower with the 500 pf on a D500 and the keeper rate remains high; the VR is pretty good. It may be the 500 F4's VR is not as good, and of course a heavier lens is harder to manage.

I'll go down to 640 or 500 at times with the 1.4 converter on. But again, I haven't used the lens in question, only a different 500 prime (one that is really easy to handle).
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Well, the range of variation is pretty big, so - as very often - the truth wobbles around the middle somewhere.

As @Steve mentions regularly, we are not all the same in terms of steadiness when trying to keep still while balancing and maneuvering an object with considerable weight. And .it also depends not only on the weight, but also its distribution.

E.g. the 500 f4 E is "only" about 800g lighter than the G model, but due to the FL front element and modified design the E model is much less front heavy, which makes you think and feel the weight difference must be much bigger.

When shooting them "really" handheld (i.e. no other support, nothing to lean on) side by side for me the 1 / focal length (1/500) rule is the limit with the G model and because of front heaviness the keeper rate already starts to drop a little. The E model I can shoot at 1/250 and sometimes even a little less plus I can hold it longer before getting fatigue isssues. Lenses like the 500PF, Z 600 6.3 etc. are a totally different story. They are designed to be a "walkabout lens", while the big fast glass will probably be used with some kind of support the majority of time.
 
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Woodpecker said:
Well, the range of variation is pretty big, so - as very often - the truth wobbles around the middle somewhere.

As @Steve mentions regularly, we are not all the same in terms of steadiness when trying to keep still while balancing and maneuvering an object with considerable weight. And .it also depends not only on the weight, but also its distribution.

E.g. the 500 f4 E is "only" about 800g lighter than the G model, but due to the FL front element and modified design the E model is much less front heavy, which makes you think and feel the weight difference must be much bigger.

When shooting them "really" handheld (i.e. no other support, nothing to lean on) side by side for me the 1 / focal length (1/500) rule is the limit with the G model and because of front heaviness the keeper rate already starts to drop a little. The E model I can shoot at 1/250 and sometimes even a little less plus I can hold it longer before getting fatigue isssues. Lenses like the 500PF, Z 600 6.3 etc. are a totally different story. They are designed to be a "walkabout lens", while the big fast glass will probably be used with some kind of support the majority of time.
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Well looking I see that the 500 G weighs 8.5 pounds? Yeah, that's a beast. I'd be on a monopod or tripod with gimbel with that thing almost all the time. I'm spoiled by walkaround lens.

So basically the OP needs to verify that the lens is sharp on a tripod (using good tripod technique) and if so, work back to handheld results.

I'll also note that the 500 pf works fine at any shutter sport with VR sport mode on. I may have missed it in this thread, but I don't know if the 500 G cares about VR with high shutter speeds (or very low ones) or not.
 
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bleirer said:
If you can shoot a static target on a tripod in good conditions and get a sharp result then maybe, if no and you can return it, I would return it.
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100%.

You need to go out in good light, shoot a static subject from a tripod from various distances, and see what the results are. I don't think anyone here can tell whether there is an issue based on photos of birds at 1/250 SS. I handhold exclusively and would never expect sharp shots at that shutter speed, either because I can't hold the lens steady enough or the bird is going to move. I'd also strongly encourage you to remove all fine tuning until after you know for certain there's an issue. The AF fine tuning obsession was always dramatically overblown, and I'd bet, led to worse results.

Finally, you shouldn’t be afraid to use your D500 up to ISO 8000 (or even more). Send me a PM, and I'll help you deal with the noise.
 
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Beau Cotter said:
May be frowned upon here lol but I got it on eBay, which I have never had any problems with before, (and I still believe it's worth it for me to get stuff on that platform.) I got it on Oct 31st, and have taken it out probably around 4 or 5 times.
So with that considered I have a feeling I should try to stick with it for a bit and really try to figure out whats the matter, rather than just trying to return it because its not working for me...
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In addition, do you know anyone near you who is a photographer? Do you have a newspaper office near you? If so, and if they still have dedicated staff photographers, try to contact them and see if they'll take a look at the lens with you. Or, is there a photo club nearby? If so, ask if anyone there can and will help you. And maybe join the club if you can.
 
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groob said:
100%.

You need to go out in good light, shoot a static subject from a tripod from various distances, and see what the results are. I don't think anyone here can tell whether there is an issue based on photos of birds at 1/250 SS. I handhold exclusively and would never expect sharp shots at that shutter speed, either because I can't hold the lens steady enough or the bird is going to move. I'd also strongly encourage you to remove all fine tuning until after you know for certain there's an issue. The AF fine tuning obsession was always dramatically overblown, and I'd bet, led to worse results.

Finally, you should be afraid to use your D500 up to ISO 8000 (or even more). Send me a PM, and I'll help you deal with the noise.
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Groob, I've found that the best way to deal with high-ISO noise is to ensure against an image underexposure. What are your thoughts on this?
 
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Whiskeyman said:
Groob, I've found that the best way to deal with high-ISO noise is to ensure against an image underexposure. What are your thoughts on this?
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Yes, but I think there’s been some debate with the more recent cameras about whether pulling up shadows results in more noise than exposing properly in the first instance. It’s not something I am an expert on because I expose to the right as much as possible. But the larger point I was going to make is that (in my opinion) the best workflow for both sharpening and noise reduction is to (1) resize for output prior to sharpening or reducing noise, (2) selectively sharpen the subject and (3) reduce noise selectively on the background. I’ve never been a Topaz person, and Photoshop’s ability to select the subject for you these days make this process incredibly easy and efficient. It’s also it as fast or faster than using Topaz, plus you retain full control.
 
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groob said:
Yes, but I think there’s been some debate with the more recent cameras about whether pulling up shadows results in more noise than exposing properly in the first instance. It’s not something I am an expert on because I expose to the right as much as possible. But the larger point I was going to make is that (in my opinion) the best workflow for both sharpening and noise reduction is to (1) resize for output prior to sharpening or reducing noise, (2) selectively sharpen the subject and (3) reduce noise selectively on the background. I’ve never been a Topaz person, and Photoshop’s ability to select the subject for you these days make this process incredibly easy and efficient. It’s also it as fast or faster than using Topaz, plus you retain full control.
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I believe you are correct saying that with most current sensors, pulling up shadows in post works pretty well. I am often undexposing a tad deliberately because when you do bird photography, it's very easy to blow the highlights. Egrets are the worst :) but even something like a Blue Heron ... you can easily wind up with blown highlights on the head. I mean, getting it perfect is better, but while you can fix too dark if it's not extremely underexposed, you can't fix truly blown highlights.

I believe the recommendation for LR denoise (which I think works quite well) is to denoise very early in the workflow; Steve has a video on how he does it and I find it works quite well.
 
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I have had three Nikon superteles with this issue. A 500VR, a 300VR and a 300VRll. It was ever so slight, but having had others for comparison, I knew they were wonky. No place I sent them had anything to offer in terms why or what to do. I ended up selling them to stores (I wasn't going to saddle someone else and hope they didn't notice). Anyway, now I only get big lenses from people or places with a return policy.
 
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Pileated Woodpecker, Nikon D500, Nikkor 500 f/4 G VR | 1/320" | f/4 | ISO 400 (No denoise applied)
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Black-capped Chickadee, Nikon D500, Nikkor 500 f/4 G VR | 1/640" | f/4 | ISO 5600 (Denoise applied)


I've gone out a few more times with the lens, and I think I can make it work, I really focused on my technique, along with turning on/off VR as needed, and here are some results!
 
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groob said:
I'd still strongly urge you to bump up your shutter speed, especially when your ISO is below 6400
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I mostly agree with this, although ISO 6400 on the D500 is almost unusable for me, from a color fidelity and dynamic range standpoint, along with the loss of detail when denoising... But sometimes it is necessary.
 
DRwyoming said:
Try some shots in good light with solid support which could be as simple as resting the lens on top of a fence or table top or something else solid. Even resting the lens on a backpack or log while laying prone for low shots can work but for testing I’d eliminate any camera motion issues.

With practice, folks can learn to hand hold a lens the size and weight of the 500 f/4 G lens at 1/800” but that’s not nearly fast enough for initial lens testing with a lens of that size and weight. Remember on a D500 that has the field of view of a 750mm lens and it’s much bigger and heavier than the 200-500mm.

Hard to say if the lens has a sharpness issue but I’d withhold judgement based on these tests. I’d also consider resetting any AF fine tuning you dialed in to zero if that testing was done handheld at similar shutter speeds. AF fine tuning can make things worse if not done carefully. I’d personally only do it if I see a consistent pattern of front focusing or back focusing but not both. It’s also important to do any AF fine tuning at representative distances. IOW, don’t AF fine tune at 20’ if you’ll typically shoot subjects at 50’ or longer distances.

For handholding I’d start with shutter speeds up around 1/1600” or faster until you have a lot of experience with that much lens and possibly discover you can start dropping shutter speed.

If the lens still seems soft after doing all that then yeah I’d probably send it in for service or return it if that’s an option.
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Dave's advice is spot on. It's a new lens to you, and a heavy one, so give it some time with careful and controlled testing before jumping to any conclusions. In a prior post, when you were considering buying this lens, you mentioned that handholding such a heavy lens wouldn't be any problem for a young fella like you, but you may be surprised at just how challenging it can be to keep the lens steady. Definitely try much faster shutter speeds, and good support. If you're doing ground shots, you might want to try a ground pod with a head attached, or a bean bag for support. Alternatively, a big rock or log will do in a pinch. Best of luck, and be sure to report back in how you do.
 
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You say in a controlled environment it's sharp - are you sure that this is not simply atmospheric distortion? There are days you can't get any sharp image, even at short distance.
Regarding your first post, the left one looks ok for a 300% crop, the cardinal seems to be beak-focused.
 
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Beau Cotter said:
Yep, I did find it a bit ago, I think most of my issues were user error, thank goodness. However I think the AF is a little more erratic than my zoom, might just be because of the thinner depth of field with F4.
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Quite possibly. The AF might be a little more erratic as it is an older lens and the newer lenses have better AF ability simply because of newer technology and algorithms etc. I am not saying that this is definitely the case, just a thought. When I had this lens, it was definitely the weakest of the super tele's as far as AF ability is concerned. You also do need very good long lens technique but once you have it, you have it, and the results will be good.
 
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Your first problem is hand holding that heavy lens. Your shutter speed is too low for hand holding. I shoot the same birds as you but with a 600mmF:4g VR and D4s and tripod. You need to get a good tripod and use shutter speeds of 1/1250 at minimum,possibly higher
 
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