Same focusing problem on all mirrorless cameras?

[EricBowles]

That has not been my experience with my Z 6 II. Whether it’s in wide large or wide small, if the subject doesn’t take up a large percentage of the area box, the camera will jump to the background every time. It doesn’t matter if the background is water, grass, trees, or brush, and it matters not whether the subject is moving or stationary. Wide small or wide large = an out of focus subject and in focus surroundings unless the subject dominates the box. But I imagine that’s how one is supposed to use those area modes, with subjects similarly sized as the boxes and not those noticeably smaller than the box. Dynamic works great for smaller targets, though.

I don't recall shooting many subjects that are smaller than the AF box I choose, so you are probably correct when the subject is very small or distant. If you want precision, Dynamic is a bit better. I use Dynamic when the subject is obstructed or partially obstructed. Once focused on the subject, the camera does a pretty good job of maintaining focus through the obstructions - certainly better than I would expect.

 

[arbitrage]

The Z9 is outstanding and has no trouble in this area...

In my experience the Z9 was one of the worst offenders of the modern flagships....although maybe later FW has improved things.

 

[Ken Miracle]

In my experience the Z9 was one of the worst offenders of the modern flagships....although maybe later FW has improved things.

Most mirrorless have contrast detect focusing which is less effective in low light and small subjects.
DSLRs mostly use phase detect that has less difficulty there.
The Z9 is outstanding and has no trouble in this area...

I would not say the Z9 has no trouble. And yes it is much better after firmware 2.10. I had the Z9 for 3 days before the the 2.0 update so not a lot of time with the "old" Z9. The 2.1 and more experiences with the Z9 made me not miss my D6 at all.

I have never used a Sony A1 or any other Sony for that matter so someone like @Steve who has used A1 and Z9 2.11 can make better comparisons.

The biggest thing I keep finding that improves focus on small birds in the deep shade or on a branch with bright sky behind is having the exposure bright enough. First I use center weighted metering on clear sunny days.

I use manual with auto ISO 99% of the time.

If bird is small in the frame I switch to DX from FX mode.

If light is low I will use a lower shutter speed than I might prefer but mostly EV (exposure compensation effectively overrides metered ISO) is my friend.

Hand holding at suprisingly slow shutter speeds is very possible with the image stabilization in the Z9 and Z800 combination. 1/200 th of a second and even slower is very useable. Usually movement of the bird is more of an issue of shutter speed than the Z9 /Z800 combo.

I have the control ring on the Z800 set to control my EV and it is fast to go up and down while keeping my eye to the viewfinder. When the histogram moves far enough to the right the dark bird usuallly pops into focus and if not the manual focus ring is right behind the control ring and that gets it to the point that AF takes over.

Bird ID pics are my first focus so background and art shots not my first priority. Once I have the ID shot I can try for the beauty shot if the ID shot did not get it.

The Z9 has a "LOT" of possible combinations and I keep experimenting. I have Z9 video record button set to turn off subject detection and hold. When I turn off subject detect and use old fashioned single point I pretty much have a D6 & D850 combo in my hand. And Custom Wide area at 5x3 works a lot like group did on my DSLR's.

Just like the D6 and the D850 the Z9 is more capable than I am

 

[Tom Reynolds]

On an OM-1, if the camera recognizes the bird (white box around the subject) the bird will be in focus and if the camera can see the eye (second white box around the eye) the eye will be "tack sharp".

However, when the camera doesn't recognize the bird taking a shot is pointless. The OM-1 is very bad in this instance.

What I find helps most is a brighter image. In fact, I have a button that adds +1.3EV (or whatever I set it for) for this purpose. A smaller AF area does NOT seem to help.

Tom

 

[Ken Miracle]

On an OM-1, if the camera recognizes the bird (white box around the subject) the bird will be in focus and if the camera can see the eye (second white box around the eye) the eye will be "tack sharp".

However, when the camera doesn't recognize the bird taking a shot is pointless. The OM-1 is very bad in this instance.

What I find helps most is a brighter image. In fact, I have a button that adds +1.3EV (or whatever I set it for) for this purpose. A smaller AF area does NOT seem to help.

Tom

same type of box system on Nikon just different colors.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

same type of box system on Nikon just different colors.

Yep, think the systems all work about the same

 

[Calson]

It still comes down to the camera's sensors detecting vertical lines of contrast and in low light or with small apertures or low contrast subjects or low lighting levels the camera is going to struggle.

When I was shooting weddings in dimly lit locations I often needed to grab focus on an ear or neckline and then lock focus and release the shutter. My D00e would often fail to focus on a low contrast subject like a GBH and the D750 was much better in such situations. Group AF was mediocre with the D750 but terrific with the D500. I learned I needed to understand each camera's limitations and work around them and this required an investment of my time. No different today with the Z9 cameras that I am learning to use effectively.

 

[Whiskeyman]

Light hearted take on all cameras, which is also tools, notwithstanding AI algorithms in the exposure and latterly autofocus

View attachment 47021

The problems with that sign are many. The first of which is that there are too many people today that are similar to the machine, as in lacking a functioning brain for the situation.

 

[Bill G.]

Even though the latest Sony A1 firmware was supposed to address some AF issues I seem to be having more issues than before. Others having similar issues?

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I had several opportunities to shoot a Barred Owl flying right at me on Blue Cypress Lake. I use an OM-1 that has 1000+ cross sensors so, supposably, it is as good a mirrorless camera as there is at accurate autofocus. The sensor reads out in 1/125 of a second, not as fast as a Z8/9 or A1 but plenty fast.

Unfortunately, the 4" behind the camera is definitely NOT up to snuff but, such as it is, these are the shots that I captured.

The first shot was on the first day and I am making multiple mistakes as I relearn to shoot. I set the 100-400 lens to 200mm and the OM-1 to 20 f/s. The result is a 90% crop of a 20MP image. The Owl is flying into the late afternoon sun. I am able to focus on the Owl sitting on the tree branch so the camera maintained focus as the Owl took off and flew towards me. A better photographer would have set the zoom to 300mm and kept the bird in the frame longer and possibly attained a great shot. Oh, well. Wiskeyman was with me. Maybe he got a better shot.

The second shot was on the fourth day. I now had the 300f4 lens installed and the OM-1 set to 50 f/s. Unfortunately, the only opportunities I had was the Owl flying into the shadows. The Owl was backlit on the tree and the OM-1 Subject ID did not recognize the bird so i picked a spot on the path that I expected the bird to follow and waited. I refocused on the area but did not maintain continuous focus. When the Owl entered the frame, I took the shot, and the OM-1 faithfully located the bird's face and rattled off 50 shots/sec. I should have increased the exposure compensation and probably the camera would have achieved better focus.

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[J.A.]

I appreciate this conversation a lot because I'm a sports shooter who recently used two copies of the 300mm f2.8G VR II on my Z9 to shoot baseball—without issues and (yes) I had too many good RAW HE* shots (I typically shoot sports in high-resolution at my University, so the players can print them into posters if they wish). The local high school was happy I wanted to test gear for their final games of the season and I was incredibly happy for the favor to real-world test more stuff. Please know I'm c. one-month new to mirrorless.

I was interested in buying a used version of the F-Mount 300mm to FTZII it to my Z9, so I did the typical research and rented the lens (the second one was a copy available for purchase). I watched an honest video about this lens-and-camera combo, which the person praises, yet believes the combination has some focus issues.

All sports seasons are over at my University. Therefore, when I obtained the second copy, I immediately got my Steve Perry on and went to a local park in search of NYC-metro area wildlife (you know the usual critters: fearless squirrels with attitudes, finch, homing pigeons, and other small birds I'm unable to identify, who are comfortable enough to swipe a taste of your outdoor lunch). I am without doubt a terrible wildlife photographer—if a large parrot is on my shoulder, I'll-miss-the-selfie-using-my-iPhone bad.

I immediately noticed everything about the realities of acquiring focus on mirrorless cameras you discuss here, especially without much contrast between a small subject and background and my poor attempts at infinity. I had to quickly modify how I shoot to get any in-focus shots while already at a deficit in this genre, and I imagine 300mm is too short even in a small hardly wooded area too. Naturally, I began to think the first copy was better. (I'd love input from you on how to use a 300mm without a teleconverter for wildlife.)

Right afterward, I found a local 14-under baseball game on my way home; the parents and coaches gave me permission to shoot with the largest Nikon camera and lens they've ever seen. The Z9 with the 300mm flawlessly nailed focus every time in all sorts of rapidly changing light and dark shadow (at the end of magic hour with field lights slowly turning on). I only shot two innings because I had too many photos (you all know how promising pictures in return for the favor to shoot at 20FPS often means hours to simply cull shots).

Since your experience and this discussion is enlightening, can I have everyone's permission to share this post with the vlogger? I'm unsure how much they understand what you know about the adjustment to a mirrorless sytem. J.A.

 

[agrumpyoldsod]

I read in several threads that mirrorless cameras have a difficult time focusing on small objects, birds specifically, at times. This is most apparent when focusing first in the distance, then trying to re-focus on an object that is closer to the photographer.
I have never noticed this on my ancient D500.
Can this be problematic for bird photography? Don't want to find out after buying a Z9.
Many thanks.

Much of what is posted about mirrorless cameras having problems is overblown and not remotely applicable to the Z9/Z8 and other flagship bodies or those with the same tech. If true it goes back to the much older generation of mirrorless models.

I shot DSLRs until the Z9 came into my hands when after not many weeks I decided to sell all my f-mount gear. That was a pair of D850, D5, D500 and 30 F-mount lenses -- to fund a 2nd Z9 and my complete transition to Z-mount glass. I have been actively shooting for over 40 years and the last 2 have been the most fun and liberating. Finally we have tools that make our job much much easier.

There simply is nothing like shooting with a black out free EVF -- no OVF or other mirrorless body gives one this.
Shooting with a camera that adjusts AF every 1/120th second improves even older F-glass.
Shoots 45.7mp Lossless RAW at 20fps and with one button press can switch to a 19.5mp DX crop or 120fps 11mp jpg image.
Allows 24 buttons and rings to be allocated functional roles (depending on type of lens) -- including in my case 5 different AF-modes +AF-ON and so on......
No more concern about f/8 and restrictions of which lens can be auto-focussed on a body -- they all work
100% zoom in and out again with the press of a button.
The Z8 is the Z9's almost equal younger brother and this lighter and smaller tool is proving to be ridiculous.
and more and more

I do become weary when folk go on about the fact that their camera finds and locks on to a subject when it is so tiny in the frame that the focus point completely covers it -- often they go on to say "I take the shot" AND I ask WHY.
Why waste a shot when the subject is so tiny and simply will not resolve.
Wait until the subject is larger in the frame then take the shot - I have had no issues locking onto large birds at a distance with my Z9, nor fast jets and a host of other things -- but I wait. I shot Lanner Peregrine Falcons diving around me (well technically at the lure their handler was swinging) handheld with a Z9 and 600mm.
Simply not possible with a DSLR and its slow and limited Af-point coverage.

Sure the last 15 months with the Z9 has been a journey. And now with the Z8 as well and seemingly more and better firmware that journey just keeps getting better and better. The journey has been one of my learning and adapting to these new tools - and it keeps going.

The Z glass is just better than the f-glass -- the latest and best lenses have linear AF motors (not screw based) so are faster, are lighter and sharper edge to edge AND the two with built in TC's are simply insane.
The future is in Z-glass not F-mount. Sure there are good deals around now in f-mount and you can use it with the FTZii -- but you are missing out on true syncro-VR, better controls, and more. The 100-400 and 70-200 are vastly better than their f-mount predecessors. AND we will see a relatively cheap 180/200-600 and many many more high-end and more affordable lenses. The 800/6.3pf is an insane lens for birders. My guess is that a 600/?PF will come and so will more higher quality long zooms.

 

[EricBowles]

Much of what is posted about mirrorless cameras having problems is overblown and not remotely applicable to the Z9/Z8 and other flagship bodies or those with the same tech. If true it goes back to the much older generation of mirrorless models.

I do become weary when folk go on about the fact that their camera finds and locks on to a subject when it is so tiny in the frame that the focus point completely covers it -- often they go on to say "I take the shot" AND I ask WHY.
Why waste a shot when the subject is so tiny and simply will not resolve.
Wait until the subject is larger in the frame then take the shot - I have had no issues locking onto large birds at a distance with my Z9, nor fast jets and a host of other things -- but I wait. I shot Lanner Peregrine Falcons diving around me (well technically at the lure their handler was swinging) handheld with a Z9 and 600mm.
Simply not possible with a DSLR and its slow and limited Af-point coverage.

The Z glass is just better than the f-glass -- the latest and best lenses have linear AF motors (not screw based) so are faster, are lighter and sharper edge to edge AND the two with built in TC's are simply insane.

I agree with all of Andy's excellent points. But no focus mode is ever going to be perfect. For example, the Wide modes are useful to focus on a subject using a group of focus points. When unobstructed, it almost never misses and picks up the background in error. But if you have a branch, weed, or person in front of your subject in a similar area, nearest subject priority can pick up something other than your intended subject. In that scenario, Nikon expects you will use your skills as a photographer and choose an alternate AF area mode. So I might use Dynamic, Single or even Pinpoint AF for specific situations. Handling easy focus that is accurate 95% of the time is easy, but for that other 5% you need to be prepared to quickly adjust to Plan B or Plan C.

Andy also referenced the ability to focus with any part of the frame even with combinations above f/8. For example, if you have a lens that is at f/6.3 and add a 1.4 TC, on a DSLR you will struggle to focus even with the center AF point. On the Nikon mirrorless cameras, not only will it focus well at an effective f/9 wide open, but you can put the AF area group anywhere in the frame and have the same performance. This is simply not possible with a DSLR.

 

[Roy]

I agree with all of Andy's excellent points. But no focus mode is ever going to be perfect. For example, the Wide modes are useful to focus on a subject using a group of focus points. When unobstructed, it almost never misses and picks up the background in error. But if you have a branch, weed, or person in front of your subject in a similar area, nearest subject priority can pick up something other than your intended subject. In that scenario, Nikon expects you will use your skills as a photographer and choose an alternate AF area mode. So I might use Dynamic, Single or even Pinpoint AF for specific situations. Handling easy focus that is accurate 95% of the time is easy, but for that other 5% you need to be prepared to quickly adjust to Plan B or Plan C.

Andy also referenced the ability to focus with any part of the frame even with combinations above f/8. For example, if you have a lens that is at f/6.3 and add a 1.4 TC, on a DSLR you will struggle to focus even with the center AF point. On the Nikon mirrorless cameras, not only will it focus well at an effective f/9 wide open, but you can put the AF area group anywhere in the frame and have the same performance. This is simply not possible with a DSLR.

The early mirrorless focus problem was dur to contrast detect over DSLR phase detect.
If contrast detect is at infinity and the foreground subject is way out of focus then the camera just sees blur.
With phase detect autofocus this wasn't a problem.
Many new cameras are going back to phase detect AF or a combo of both systems...

 

[Tom Reynolds]

The early mirrorless focus problem was dur to contrast detect over DSLR phase detect.
If contrast detect is at infinity and the foreground subject is way out of focus then the camera just sees blur.
With phase detect autofocus this wasn't a problem.
Many new cameras are going back to phase detect AF or a combo of both systems...

The Om Systems OM-1 uses phase detect with 1053 points that essentially cover the image. All the points are cross AF type That work at any f/stop if the image is properly exposed. This is WAY more than my D-500.

 

[JoelKlein]

I had this question for a long time, if Canon can, why don’t Nikon and Sony build a dual focus idea?
And what’s the reason they can’t create cross type AF arrays on the mirrorless sensor?

 

[Tom Reynolds]

The OM-1 sensor is a Sony.

New Olympus OM-1 Uses Sony Quad Bayer m43 Sensor - Sony Addict

OM-1: B&H Photo / Amazon / Adorama Last night OM systems announced its latest Olympus camera the Olympus OM-1 with a pretty substantial price tag attached. I am curious to see how the Quad Bayer technology ends up working for noise performance and more, but I think it will be far more useful on...

sonyaddict.com

 

[EricBowles]

I had this question for a long time, if Canon can, why don’t Nikon and Sony build a dual focus idea?
And what’s the reason they can’t create cross type AF arrays on the mirrorless sensor?

Nikon and Sony do use hybrid Phase Detect/Contrast Detect AF. The focus is further refined at a speed of 120 times per second in the Z8 and Z9.

In the case of cross sensors, it's just not necessary in the latest cameras. The camera uses nearly 4 million pixels to look for subject matter and contrast in order to focus.

 

[JoelKlein]

Nikon and Sony do use hybrid Phase Detect/Contrast Detect AF. The focus is further refined at a speed of 120 times per second in the Z8 and Z9.

In the case of cross sensors, it's just not necessary in the latest cameras. The camera uses nearly 4 million pixels to look for subject matter and contrast in order to focus.

If it’s not needed, what is the reason is it still having issues with horizontal lines? The proof that its not resolved, is the fact that tilting the sensor a bit makes such a big difference.

 

[Cliff LeSergent]

I wish more camera makers would implement a feature that Panasonic cameras offer - the ability to choose Near or Far for focus activation. When using Lumix cameras, I have the AF-On (back button) set to AF-Near and the shutter button set to AF-Far. If the camera is focused on a distant subject and something appears closer to the camera, I use the back button to instantly drive focus closer to the camera. It works really well if you're shooting in an environment where subjects can appear at any distance and you need to make large focus shifts quickly.

 

[JoelKlein]

I wish more camera makers would implement a feature that Panasonic cameras offer - the ability to choose Near or Far for focus activation. When using Lumix cameras, I have the AF-On (back button) set to AF-Near and the shutter button set to AF-Far. If the camera is focused on a distant subject and something appears closer to the camera, I use the back button to instantly drive focus closer to the camera. It works really well if you're shooting in an environment where subjects can appear at any distance and you need to make large focus shifts quickly.

For that matter, practicing with the focusing rink, you accomplish the same result more precise

 

[Cliff LeSergent]

Not with focus-by-wire and having to manually switch your lens between AF and MF - using the focus button is pretty much instantaneous.

 

[JoelKlein]

Not with focus-by-wire and having to manually switch your lens between AF and MF - using the focus button is pretty much instantaneous.

Focus ring has a setting to act linear

 

[Cliff LeSergent]

For that matter, practicing with the focusing rink, you accomplish the same result more precise

Focus ring has a setting to act linear

But you still have to fiddle with the AF/MF switch... but regardless of how you use MF, AF is always going to be faster.

The AF-Near/AF-Far setup seems so obvious once you try it. I don't understand why so many photographers are completely befuddled by the concept.

 

[JoelKlein]

But you still have to fiddle with the AF/MF switch... but regardless of how you use MF, AF is always going to be faster.

The AF-Near/AF-Far setup seems so obvious once you try it. I don't understand why so many photographers are completely befuddled by the concept.

Why fiddling with the switch? set the ring to AF override. Honestly I keep my ring off in fear of bumping the AF, unless I’m at the zoo and need to make the front fence invisible