Shutter counts and new camera purchases

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R.Philip

R.Philip

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My new Z8 gets delivered tomorrow. How many of you check the shutter actuations when you first get a new camera? I know B&H and Adorama have 30 day return policies. I am sure they turn around and sell those returns as new cameras. What would you do if there were 2000-3000 actuations (or more) on an allegedly new camera? Just something I was thinking about after checking the shutter counts on the two D850's I was selling to MPB to finance my purchase of the Z8. Is there a way to turn back the number of shutter actuations on a camera?
 
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With the Z8/Z9, shutter actuations mean nothing to me. It's all electronic.

I very rarely buy new, but even if I did, 2K-3K actuations wouldn't mean anything to me. Maybe I'd use it to negotiate some amount of money off against a dishonest seller, but that's about it.

To my knowledge, there's no way to Ferris Bueller's Day Off a camera shutter.
 
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R.Philip said:
My new Z8 gets delivered tomorrow. How many of you check the shutter actuations when you first get a new camera? I know B&H and Adorama have 30 day return policies. I am sure they turn around and sell those returns as new cameras. What would you do if there were 2000-3000 actuations (or more) on an allegedly new camera? Just something I was thinking about after checking the shutter counts on the two D850's I was selling to MPB to finance my purchase of the Z8. Is there a way to turn back the number of shutter actuations on a camera?
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Since many cameras require setting up language, location and date/time on initial start-up, I am not sure how stores could easily sell returned cameras as new to a customer. I frequently see demos sold, but I have never received a new camera that was previously powered on and set. So if I buy a new camera and it has never been powered on or set, I would only check the shutter out of curiosity to see what a manufacturer considers a normal count for a new camera. When I have looked, most have only had a dozen or so images.

--Ken
 
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Most cameras have a reset to factory option that undoes the initial setup so that is useless as a determination process...


Around here people would buy cameras using credit cards, use them for a weekend or two for professional work then return them (we used to have 30 days return windows, no questions asked).... so camera stores decided they wouldn't accept returns with over 200 shutter actuations.
 
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I’m pretty sure legally speaking that when a camera is returned it has to be sold as open box and not new. If it was clearly established as having been used and sold as new I’d imagine there would be consequences. Now I am not a lawyer and I could be wrong but that is what I have read many times over the years.
 
I don't think you can reset the shutter count with a reset. I think that just zeros out the file name. I would not expect a new camera to have many actuations and would be suspicious over 3000, electronic or otherwise. But I purchase from a trusted authorized seller, so have never bothered to check.
 
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It’s a great question and one you should ask of the individual camera manufacturer to determine whether they QC the cameras and send them out with registered shutter clicks. In my experience, my new Canon and Nikon cameras came with a few clicks (3-less than 20). As cameras are not sealed it would be difficult to tell otherwise. interestingly, when I opened my most recent Z8, which arrived in a pristine box, I was suspicious that it was “used” as the foam wrap appeared crumpled and handled. Then, I remembered it was purchased after the recall so I suspected that Nikon had probably pulled it out for the fix. To my knowledge, I suspect that that camera retailers resell returned cameras as new and not “open box.” Otherwise there would be thousands of open box cameras selling for less on B&H alone.
 
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TurtleCat said:
I’m pretty sure legally speaking that when a camera is returned it has to be sold as open box and not new. If it was clearly established as having been used and sold as new I’d imagine there would be consequences. Now I am not a lawyer and I could be wrong but that is what I have read many times over the years.
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I checked with BH in New York. They do not sell opened boxes as new. Here is their response when I asked the question:

Question: I see that you have a 30 day return policy. What happens to a camera that’s return? Is it reboxed and sold as new , sold as referb. , or returned to the manufacturer?

------------Begin Transcript------------
Jordan K: Hello, my name is Jordan K. I am reviewing your opening comments and I will be with you in a few moments.
Jordan K: In most instances, I think they are sent back to the manufacturer.

There are different policies depending on the specific manufacturer, item, and condition though. If they are still sealed in the original packaging, they can be sold as new. Some customer returns go to our used department to be sold as used or open box condition, according to the situation.
Jordan K: All of the items sold on our site as brand new are sealed in the original packaging.
 
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Okay, I just received my Z8. I put in one of my old batteries and put on the 24-70mm S line lens that I just purchased. Before doing any other set up other than turning the camera on, I hit the shutter release twice. Then I put in an old SD card in and took 3 images. I then put the card in the card reader and used https://checkshuttercount.com/ to check the count. It said 5 shutter count. I'm satisfied with my original post. It does count actuations prior to any set up of the camera. Just from 15-20 minutes of handling, I am pleased with what I am seeing. Now the reading begins. :)
 
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R.Philip said:
My new Z8 gets delivered tomorrow. How many of you check the shutter actuations when you first get a new camera? I know B&H and Adorama have 30 day return policies. I am sure they turn around and sell those returns as new cameras. What would you do if there were 2000-3000 actuations (or more) on an allegedly new camera? Just something I was thinking about after checking the shutter counts on the two D850's I was selling to MPB to finance my purchase of the Z8. Is there a way to turn back the number of shutter actuations on a camera?
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B&H sometimes sells open-box items with full manufacturers warranty. I’m told that these are store display or items used for display at trade shows. Items returned used after a purchase cannot be sold as new.

I’m certain that manufacturers can reset shutter counts. I once purchased a refurbished camera from Nikon USA which arrived with a zero shutter count. I don’t believe retailers have the ability to do that, though.
 
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What I have experienced with a "new" DSLR was that a certain New York camera dealer was selling grey market cameras that were advertised as used but like new with a very low shutter count. My concern is with Nikon providing any warranty service for an "import" camera.
 
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I don’t believe Nikon USA will provide warranty service for gray market items.
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R.Philip said:
Okay, I just received my Z8. I put in one of my old batteries and put on the 24-70mm S line lens that I just purchased. Before doing any other set up other than turning the camera on, I hit the shutter release twice. Then I put in an old SD card in and took 3 images. I then put the card in the card reader and used https://checkshuttercount.com/ to check the count. It said 5 shutter count. I'm satisfied with my original post. It does count actuations prior to any set up of the camera. Just from 15-20 minutes of handling, I am pleased with what I am seeing. Now the reading begins. :)
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Just curious. What firmware is on your new Z8? Is it 2.0?
 
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Ralph said:
I checked with BH in New York. They do not sell opened boxes as new. Here is their response when I asked the question:

Question: I see that you have a 30 day return policy. What happens to a camera that’s return? Is it reboxed and sold as new , sold as referb. , or returned to the manufacturer?

------------Begin Transcript------------
Jordan K: Hello, my name is Jordan K. I am reviewing your opening comments and I will be with you in a few moments.
Jordan K: In most instances, I think they are sent back to the manufacturer.

There are different policies depending on the specific manufacturer, item, and condition though. If they are still sealed in the original packaging, they can be sold as new. Some customer returns go to our used department to be sold as used or open box condition, according to the situation.
Jordan K: All of the items sold on our site as brand new are sealed in the original packaging.
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By my read, this is a contradictory answer. "If they are still sealed in the original packaging". Well, no camera that I've ever bought is "sealed". They are typically wrapped in some foam like envelope +- a sticker fitting somewhere in the box. Usually, the battery is in a small package, folded over with tape. If I bought the camera, popped the battery in, took some shots, said, no it isn't for me, packaged it up as it came, you're telling me that it's sold as "open box" or "used"? Amazon alone, would have thousands if not tens of thousands of bodies listed as "open box" and I suppose B&H would have quite a few too. If these were all sent back to the manufacturer, are they then sold as new, refurb, or what? Again, I don't think they would be marketed as refurb as it took over a year before I saw a refurb Z8 hit the market.
 
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ajrmd said:
By my read, this is a contradictory answer. "If they are still sealed in the original packaging". Well, no camera that I've ever bought is "sealed". They are typically wrapped in some foam like envelope +- a sticker fitting somewhere in the box. Usually, the battery is in a small package, folded over with tape. If I bought the camera, popped the battery in, took some shots, said, no it isn't for me, packaged it up as it came, you're telling me that it's sold as "open box" or "used"? Amazon alone, would have thousands if not tens of thousands of bodies listed as "open box" and I suppose B&H would have quite a few too. If these were all sent back to the manufacturer, are they then sold as new, refurb, or what? Again, I don't think they would be marketed as refurb as it took over a year before I saw a refurb Z8 hit the market.
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He was speaking in general for any item , not specifically a camera, that’s still sealed in original packaging. As far as a camera goes I should have followed up with a second question dealing specifically with the camera. Honestly, they have a very good reputation and trust that the are shipping a reliable product. And like you said, you can always return it.
 
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Ralph said:
Just curious. What firmware is on your new Z8? Is it 2.0?
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Ralph, That is a great question. I updated the firmware yesterday to 2.00. Hey, I'm a guy. I start poking around under the hood before reading all the instructions. I was looking for the bird detection and did not see it so I checked the firmware. I believe it was version 1.01. The 24-70 firmware is 1.21. That's what shows for my lens copy. When I downloaded the firmware for the camera, I checked on the lens and it said that the latest firmware version was 1.20. Mine is already higher than that version so I figured that the lens was probably a very recent run. On that note, the camera was sitting around for a while. I am 100 pages into Steve's set up book. I'll do more reading today and tomorrow I venture out to Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery to pay tribute to our deceased veterans and to take images of the US flag adorned gravesites.
 
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R.Philip said:
Ralph, That is a great question. I updated the firmware yesterday to 2.00. Hey, I'm a guy. I start poking around under the hood before reading all the instructions. I was looking for the bird detection and did not see it so I checked the firmware. I believe it was version 1.01. The 24-70 firmware is 1.21. That's what shows for my lens copy. When I downloaded the firmware for the camera, I checked on the lens and it said that the latest firmware version was 1.20. Mine is already higher than that version so I figured that the lens was probably a very recent run. On that note, the camera was sitting around for a while. I am 100 pages into Steve's set up book. I'll do more reading today and tomorrow I venture out to Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery to pay tribute to our deceased veterans and to take images of the US flag adorned gravesites.
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Thanks for the info. I’m heading over to the Cemetery on Monday. Going to do some planting of flowers. When did you purchase your Z8?
 
arbitrage said:
The Z8 doesn't have a shutter.
B&H wouldn't sell a return as new.

But I see from your followup all is well.
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I guess splitting hairs, but it has an electronic shutter, no? One can still set the shutter speed? There is still a shutter priority mode? But you are right of course, no mechanical shutter, which is pretty amazing.
 
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bleirer said:
I guess splitting hairs, but it has an electronic shutter, no? One can still set the shutter speed? There is still a shutter priority mode? But you are right of course, no mechanical shutter, which is pretty amazing.
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Yeah. So there is no physical shutter that can wear out or have some sort of lifespan. So who cares what the shutter count is? On an A93 at 120FPS I could put 1 million actuations on the camera in under 12hrs of use. Does that really tell one anything about the use or abuse of the camera? Not really.
 
arbitrage said:
Yeah. So there is no physical shutter that can wear out or have some sort of lifespan. So who cares what the shutter count is? On an A93 at 120FPS I could put 1 million actuations on the camera in under 12hrs of use. Does that really tell one anything about the use or abuse of the camera? Not really.
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Like the OP said, if you think you are getting a new camera but you find someone had used it to take 3000 pictures, it's not a new camera. Plus, there is stuff that wears out even in electronics. Maybe heating and cooling of parts? Friction from pressing a button many times? I don't know, but electronics don't last forever for some reason.
 
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arbitrage said:
Yeah. So there is no physical shutter that can wear out or have some sort of lifespan. So who cares what the shutter count is? On an A93 at 120FPS I could put 1 million actuations on the camera in under 12hrs of use. Does that really tell one anything about the use or abuse of the camera? Not really.
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The original issue was if the shutter count would show that it returned and not new out of the box. It was not a question about wear and tear.
 
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