Struggling with Z8 focus tracking

[beano]

I'm not sure how many people actually subject their systems to test it? When I look at the image at normal magnification, it appears in focus. Now pixel peep at 100% and it's all too apparent that the observable focus point was different than the one indicated by the EVF green square and the one recorded in exif.

Quite candidly, I am still trying to better understand Nikon's AF system and Thom Hogan admits that his questions to Nikon yet to be answered. I do recall an older article that he published on his website which indicated that Nikon (Sony) sensors use the blue pixels in the arrays for AF, see: https://www.sansmirror.com/articles/choosing-a-mirrorless-camer/autofocus-sensors.html. Getting back to the portrait issue, if I recall correctly your subjects had blue eyes as does my spouse. I haven't dived into this further to determine whether the OOF issues occur with other eye colors? This would be interesting and might explain why I can't duplicate this phenomenon on my cat (or dog) or why others may not be encountering the same issue. Unfortunately, it doesn't address the (unrelated?) problems you're encountering in sports.

This is one of the main reasons why I am hoping that Z8/Z9 will get the MF eye detect feature like the Zf has, as I am getting better results with my Voigtländer 50 f/1.0 running full MF on my Zf wrt focus-accuracy, compared with my Z8 and 50 f/1.2 S in AF with subject detection/people.

At least with human subjects, even with the fastest Portrait lenses, I do find the Z8 frequently misses human eyes, even if SD /people is selected. It‘s not consistent across the 50 1.2 /85 1.2 /135 1.8, but enough to notice. The Z9 fares better, imho.

I guess we’re all waiting for the new FW updates, as rumours have it that there will be significant changes to the AF system, but, caveat, it’s still rumours only at this stage.

 

[tomcat]

Okay, but let's be very clear about what we're talking about here: the camera has already focused on the keeper and done so without any hesitation or trouble. I put it on him and press AF-On, and immediately it focuses. It is only when the subject moves that the part of the AF system which is supposed to stay focused on something until a relatively long delay has passed is apparently not doing that and is allowing the system to refocus right away.

Put differently, I can acquire focus on a subject like this almost 100 times out of 100 and the better contrast of the background doesn't confuse it. The AF point is on the subject and it focuses on it like a champ. When the focus point moves off of the subject, even for 1/20 of a second, it lets go in spite of the mode/settings being such that it is supposed to hang on. THAT is the problem.

This happens to me sometimes too--not hanging onto the subject--so I set my AF lock-on setting to 5 so that the camera will refocus almost instantly again. It seems to me that I remember Steve mentioning this phenomenon in a video 1-2 years ago and mirrorless dynamic area AF doesn't work as well as the DSLR---but don't quote me on this because he'll be reading this thread soon enough

I find that when I am tracking a baserunner going from 1st to 2nd, the AF will stay locked on the runner's head, even when he gets beside or behind the 2nd baseman----however, I have to have an amazing skill level and steady hand to keep the target on the runner's helmet, because if my hands stray for a moment and that focus box strays to one of the other accessory points within the array, that 1/20 sec you mention, then I'll lose the focus for a very brief period ( but AF lock-on of 5 gets me back on focus after 2 frames)

 

[SCoombs]

You hit the nail on the head with this comment: Your quote: " if I get a subject very large in the frame, there is a difference. If I get something that fills the entire height of the frame, for instance, I can put the main AF point on them and then move so that they're now under a helper point and with A3 set to 1 (quick) it will refocus almost immediately whereas with A3 set to 5 (delayed) there is a very nice, healthy delay before it refocuses. In fact when doing this there is even a nice little indication: the AF point turns briefly from green to red right before it refocuses".......you must remember that the camera does NOT know what the subject is and unless you fill the frame with as large of a subject as you can, then the AF sensor may think some other object in the frame is the subject. I have shot thousands of sports images with my Z6 and Z6ii and I use dynamic area AF exclusively. So long as I can keep the center focus box on my target, my keeper rate is >90%. But as I am getting older now, in the past 6-8 months, it is more difficult to track a moving subject when they are jumping around. Any and all of the oof images are 100% MY fault because I can see where my focus target box ended up on the background. This is strictly my fault for not following the subject continuously, even when not actually capturing the shots.

So long as you keep practicing with dynamic area AF with longer focal lengths to fill the focus box, you'll nail this technique down like I did--seriously. I would have no trouble whatsoever tracking either of those 2 guys above no matter where they went

I am definitely supportive or accepting or buying into the idea that the better one can manually track, the better things will be. However at the same time, there is a reason that modes like dynamic area exist because even for very seasoned photographers sometimes a little margin of error is needed. In sports, a player may very suddenly and move very quickly and it may take a fraction of a second to adjust to it, or another player may run in between the camera and the target so that no matter how good the photographer is the camera needs to do its part to keep focus on the briefly occluded target. For wildlife, these same sorts of things also happen.

In sports, I would say that I can track players keeping the central point on them for 95 frames out of a hundred, often maybe even 99. The problem is that right now none of the AF modes are able to hang onto the subject for that one frame and so the camera grabs the background and when that happens it is very difficult to get it to come off of the background. It's doable if you know how, but in a fast-paced environment like sports or wildlife it's more than enough time to lose the action that you actually wanted a photograph of.

 

[SCoombs]

This is one of the main reasons why I am hoping that Z8/Z9 will get the MF eye detect feature like the Zf has, as I am getting better results with my Voigtländer 50 f/1.0 running full MF on my Zf wrt focus-accuracy, compared with my Z8 and 50 f/1.2 S in AF with subject detection/people.

At least with human subjects, even with the fastest Portrait lenses, I do find the Z8 frequently misses human eyes, even if SD /people is selected. It‘s not consistent across the 50 1.2 /85 1.2 /135 1.8, but enough to notice. The Z9 fares better, imho.

I guess we’re all waiting for the new FW updates, as rumours have it that there will be significant changes to the AF system, but, caveat, it’s still rumours only at this stage.

I have seen a few people mention rumors of this significant AF update, but I haven't seen these rumors on Nikon rumors or anywhere else, really. Where are the rumors from?

 

[beano]

I have seen a few people mention rumors of this significant AF update, but I haven't seen these rumors on Nikon rumors or anywhere else, really. Where are the rumors from?

Hi SC, I need to check again, I can swear I saw some of the Nikon Youtoobers refer to the AF updates. Let me see if I can find it, those guys are generally in the know to some degree, a few are most likely undercover Ambassadors, I suspect.

 

[Len Shepherd]

As I mentioned, for these subjects and this setting, AA was useless and Wide S seemed to generally work well, though as I mentioned it too would occasionally lose capture and revert back to the abdomen - see the highlighted screenshot of the series below.

View attachment 99613

As Steve identified in testing, Nikon bird detection can have some issues with birds with long necks.

Wide area AF seems to me appropriate for your head shot of the swan, and as you report it worked.

Just pressing keys on a piano does not produce a tune - which keys in which order with what timing make a lot of difference.

Back to bird AF, probably 90% of bird species fit the detection criteria of Nikon bird AF - and maybe 10% do not. Steve specifically identified herons with long necks as a challenge.

I find AF subject detection zones on modern cameras in general a blessing though occasionally I find it necessary to take charge of which mode to change to when the AF does not perform as I anticipate.

In a way this is similar to taking charge of which metering mode to use, when, and which + or compensation to get the results I want.
Next Thursday if the weather performs I plan to photograph a sunset against a stunning backdrop.
My tried and tested method is spot metering from an area of sky away from the sun to get a mid tone where I want it rather than letting matrix guess which light level to expose for.

With metering there is the benefit of the histogram.
With sports (or any other "activity") test shots during any warm-up can help identify if AF is likely to do what I want it to do.

 

[dabhand16]

but the problem for sports is that even without subject detection the closest subject priority of those area boxes causes problems with so many different people out there on the field.

That's why I use a large single point with no detection or tracking modes. Back in my dSLR days the small dynamic worked well too but on mu Fuji I can't get an optimum DR box size. One is a bit too big and the next click down is a touch small. They do both work though.

Have you tried large single point with no SD or tracking?

 

[SCoombs]

That's why I use a large single point with no detection or tracking modes. Back in my dSLR days the small dynamic worked well too but on mu Fuji I can't get an optimum DR box size. One is a bit too big and the next click down is a touch small. They do both work though.

Have you tried large single point with no SD or tracking?

The reason that I replied to your comment by talking about the closest subject priority with area boxes is that there are not different size single point AF modes - there is single point or there are area boxes, so my best guess was that by talking about "large single point" you were talking about one of the area boxes - which has closest subject priority.

Based on this reply, I wonder if you are talking about something that exists on Fuji cameras but does not exist on Nikon cameras.

The only thing that I could imagine someone might call "large single point" on a Z8 is the small wide area box, which has closest subject priority.

 

[PFP]

Ciao a tutti, seguo con interesse. Ho comprato la Z8 da due giorni entusiasta dei commenti letti nei vari forum proprio per le capacità AF, leggendo questa discussione mi sta venendo la paura di aver sbagliato acquisto.

 

[dabhand16]

so my best guess was that by talking about "large single point" you were talking about one of the area boxes - which has closest subject priority.

Based on this reply, I wonder if you are talking about something that exists on Fuji cameras but does not exist on Nikon cameras.

The only thing that I could imagine someone might call "large single point" on a Z8 is the small wide area box, which has closest subject priority.

Nope - not talking about an area box. On my Fujis I can change the size of the single point AF box. If the 117 AF points are set I can go from a single point to 9 points in a box in 3 clicks of a control wheel. If the 425 AF points are set I can have just one point or go to 25 in 6 clicks. Then the size of the AF box selected acts as a single point so if any part of the subject is in the box it will be in focus.

If I turn on face or eye detection it over-rides the size of the box I've set and uses the whole frame to track the (say) eye as if I move the camera so the box I set is off the subject, the focus point stays on the eye. Without the detection modes enabled I only see the box that I've set and not the focus points inside it.

I can also set the size of the zone (dynamic) mode. Instead of my D850 having IIRC 3 sizes that you click through, I only have one but I can change the size of it and can see the AF pints in the zone/box. They do dance around within the box and as I said the small size can work well.

I got fed up with waiting for the Z8 so I got a Z6ii and that Can't change the size of the single point AF, but I assumed that the Z8 with it's superior AF system and options could. If you can't do this I'd try a dynamic mode with no detection. D9 if you can with the short lens and D9 or D25 with the longer one. On my Fujis the Zone box is clearly shown where my Z6ii only has a few dots to show the dynamic area and they are red, so difficult to keep the subject in the box.

 

[tomcat]

I am definitely supportive or accepting or buying into the idea that the better one can manually track, the better things will be. However at the same time, there is a reason that modes like dynamic area exist because even for very seasoned photographers sometimes a little margin of error is needed. In sports, a player may very suddenly and move very quickly and it may take a fraction of a second to adjust to it, or another player may run in between the camera and the target so that no matter how good the photographer is the camera needs to do its part to keep focus on the briefly occluded target. For wildlife, these same sorts of things also happen.

In sports, I would say that I can track players keeping the central point on them for 95 frames out of a hundred, often maybe even 99. The problem is that right now none of the AF modes are able to hang onto the subject for that one frame and so the camera grabs the background and when that happens it is very difficult to get it to come off of the background. It's doable if you know how, but in a fast-paced environment like sports or wildlife it's more than enough time to lose the action that you actually wanted a photograph of.

For situations like this where you need to quickly get off the background and back onto the subject, that's why I keep my AF lock-on set to 5. A setting of 5 will get me back onto the subject quicker--I got this idea from Steve in one of his videos a couple of years back, where he mentioned that the mirrorless seems to work counterintuitive to the DSLR days

 

[fcotterill]

Thom Hogan has compared the actual mechanistic functions of Nikon's AF modes in the Z9 (thus Z8) to their Pro DSLRs, and particular he points out the deficiencies in Closest Subject Priority of the "Group" Area modes. See his Z8 and Z9 ebooks and reviews. In short, to quote : "We still don't have any focus mode that truly guarantees closest subject priority."

Moreover, for the Z8 in lowlight particularly, "....The real advantage the Z6 has is that the focus rows have more vertical area (short axis) than the Z7/Z8/Z9. What I think tends to happen in low light, particularly with low contrast areas, is that the Z6 simply finds something to grab hold of that the Z7/Z8/Z9 won't see as well."

As importantly, posted above #68 , the senior engineers who designed the Z9 have admitted to its deficiencies in Autofocus performance, due to its inherent on sensor AF, compared to Nikon's advanced DSLRs especially the D6.

 

[fcotterill]

Apart from these incomplete insights, Nikon is at Not all clear about how the Z AF modes actually work, particularly these Area modes with respect to CSP. However, the evidence from many experienced photographers (from many months of intensive experience), is that besides shortcomings in CSP, the Z cameras have marked tendencies to grab the wrong object. The Z9 AF system Subject Recognition is the best available workaround.

To reiterate, the Z Dynamic modes give little if any help photographing tricky subjects such as moving birds and mammals, and particularly photographing a target animal in a group. The best solution available is a tight Custom Area mode, and SR On in most situations. The tightest area sizes in the Z9 AF system are 1*1 > 1*3 vertical > 5*1 horizontal, and 1*1 works best with 5*1 as the option. In short, a 1*1 C1 or C2 works better than Single-Point mode

I find Toggling/HandOff allows swopping between C1 or C2 with 3D modes delivers a high percentage of sharp images shooting 20fps bursts. The skill required is to keep the focus box on the moving target subject.

 

[ajrmd]

As Steve identified in testing, Nikon bird detection can have some issues with birds with long necks.

Wide area AF seems to me appropriate for your head shot of the swan, and as you report it worked.

Just pressing keys on a piano does not produce a tune - which keys in which order with what timing make a lot of difference.

Back to bird AF, probably 90% of bird species fit the detection criteria of Nikon bird AF - and maybe 10% do not. Steve specifically identified herons with long necks as a challenge.

I find AF subject detection zones on modern cameras in general a blessing though occasionally I find it necessary to take charge of which mode to change to when the AF does not perform as I anticipate.

In a way this is similar to taking charge of which metering mode to use, when, and which + or compensation to get the results I want.
Next Thursday if the weather performs I plan to photograph a sunset against a stunning backdrop.
My tried and tested method is spot metering from an area of sky away from the sun to get a mid tone where I want it rather than letting matrix guess which light level to expose for.

With metering there is the benefit of the histogram.
With sports (or any other "activity") test shots during any warm-up can help identify if AF is likely to do what I want it to do.

I was holding my breath, waiting for the rationalizations, criticisms and candidly, your comments were not helpful. This has nothing to do with a long neck as the subject is large in the frame and the SD instantly and clearly identified the eye. Pressing the BBF moved the af away from the SD identification to the body, repeatedly, and reproducibly. Changing to a wide area small reduced, but did not eliminate this effect. The camera's SD seemingly identified the subject accurately but this was overridden by some other process. It is either a hardware or more likely firmware deficiency. Neither a Canon nor Sony body exhibits such crazy behavior. And as I and others have observed, it’s not just birds but people too. Portraits, sports, etc. Try doing an engagement shoot or wedding and having to delete a significant number of images not because of composition or lighting issues but because a flagship camera can’t af on the eyes? Falling back to techniques we used years ago is a cop out; I'm not shooting with a body from years ago, but one manufactured and sold today. Other manufacturers flagship cameras simply don't do this.

 

[flyingpoint]

As someone who recently came back to Nikon (Swapped A1 and A9III for Z9 and Z8) -- I am feeling this post. @SCoombs, your description(s) of the Nikon focus behavior is remarkably similar to what I've been experiencing shooting sports. I thought it was my inexperience with the system, but after a hundred games/matches over the last few months, I'm starting to realize that it's a Nikon thing. (Both the focus inconsistencies and the sporadic Lightroom weirdness.) And it truly is the "inconsistencies" that will drive you crazy. I've been jaw-dropped at how well the Z9 will hold focus as a player goes behind a goal net, yet there are times where it won't pick up & remain on one player.

Despite the many knowledgeable replies, I don't think there's an answer until Nikon pushes out new firmware or moves us along to the Z9ii. But I appreciate you making this thoughtful, well-researched post. It's nice to know that I'm not alone.

 

[ajrmd]

That's why I use a large single point with no detection or tracking modes. Back in my dSLR days the small dynamic worked well too but on mu Fuji I can't get an optimum DR box size. One is a bit too big and the next click down is a touch small. They do both work though.

Have you tried large single point with no SD or tracking?

Really? It's 2024 not 2004. If one wanted that then a Canon 5d would be perfect. Truth is I photograph things other than my cats and it appears, the AF system in its current implementation is just not reliable enough for portraits, birds, sports, etc. Houston, we have a problem and Shinagawa needs to realize it.

 

[Cameron T]

Really? It's 2024 not 2004. If one wanted that then a Canon 5d would be perfect. Truth is I photograph things other than my cats and it appears, the AF system in its current implementation is just not reliable enough for portraits, birds, sports, etc. Houston, we have a problem and Shinagawa needs to realize it.

Not reliable enough?

I'm pretty sure plenty of us have put up plenty of good shots showing it is.

I consistently feel like there's some fundamental differences here that are being missed somehow. Plenty of us are getting shots consistently, and others aren't.

 

[fcotterill]

Really? It's 2024 not 2004. If one wanted that then a Canon 5d would be perfect. Truth is I photograph things other than my cats and it appears, the AF system in its current implementation is just not reliable enough for portraits, birds, sports, etc. Houston, we have a problem and Shinagawa needs to realize it.

Your Dpr style histrionics are incorrect, and counterproductive on BCG. Many photographers here not only report but share excellent imagery of challenging subjects taken with Z8,Z9 and latterly Z6 III cameras.

The shortcomings of the on sensor AF hardware are very well known, particularly compared to the AF systems in the flagship DSLRs (D5 and particularly D6). I took some time to track down and share authoritative sources on this topic, which might well help other members in search of this information.

Notwithstanding their deficiencies in detecting contrast particularly in low light, and inferior Closest Subject Priority, the AF system third generation Z cameras is extremely powerful, especially with Subject Detection and high speed iterations of the EXPEED7 so no blackout viewfinder etc.

The Z9 AF system certainly will be improved, likely the on sensor AF detect hardware is at issue. Nonetheless, the challenges are best overcome with the experience, judgement and skill to work around the deficiencies, including grabbing backgrounds, jumping off the focal subject we encounter with the Z9 and Z8.

 

[Jojo]

Reikan is a whole other issue for me right now. When I sign into the app it says I have a free license only and won't let me do sny tests. Yet elsewhere the app itself acknowledges I have a pro license and if I try to buy a license it says I can't because I already have one.

It's been like this for a couple weeks. I've contacted support twice and haven't gotten any reply. I was honestly beginning to wonder if the company went out of business or something.

Well that’s disappointing. I’m really curious so what the results of the tests are. I think there is a hardware/calibration issue because even though the Z8 AF system isn’t perfect you should be getting a higher keeper rate.

I will add every AF system has its own idiosyncrasies (actually, I can’t speak to Canon because I have 0 experience with Canon but I presume they do as well). I have a Z8 and a Sony a7cii. When I first started using the Sony, I expected the vaunted Sony AF system to trounce Nikon’s but the differences between the two are small. The Sony performs better in some instances and the Nikon better in others. For example, when a person moves laterally across the frame, the Sony AF picks it up maybe 50% of the time
whereas the Nikon picks it up 95%+.

Additionally, when backgrounds get complicated, I tend to use my mirrorless system more like a DSLR and focus on where the action will be rather than where it is. I just don’t believe in letting the camera make every decision unless you’re in a controlled environment like a studio or a portrait session. It’s why I keep one button on each camera programmed to the dreaded single point AF mode.

 

[SCoombs]

Not reliable enough?

I'm pretty sure plenty of us have put up plenty of good shots showing it is.

I consistently feel like there's some fundamental differences here that are being missed somehow. Plenty of us are getting shots consistently, and others aren't.

As I noted above, my observation reading hundreds of people's experiences with the Z8/9 has been that there are two radically different experiences of basic, non skill based behaviors with the camera and I've yet to find any evidence that gives any insight into what the heck is going on.

For instance, some people - a lot of people, actually - say that their Z8/9 focuses flawlessly and instantly down to extremely dark, wedding-reception-dancing levels of light, much better than their DSLRs ever did. Meanwhile a lot of other people say it's far worse than their DSLRs and won't focus below EV6 or something. Thom Hogan has said that the lack of an AF assist light on speedlights that works with mirrorless cameras continues to be a real problem for event photographers while plenty of people insist that they don't need such a feature because their cameras focus perfectly on their own in these conditions.

A lot of people say the AF nails eyeballs, not the eyelashes, every time, even through brush or nets or other stuff, while a lot of others say they always get the eyelashes.

A lot of people say the subject detection is amazing at tracking birds in flight, tracking the eye perfectly. Just hold down auto area and it nails the shot. A lot of others say that it just puts focus on the body, or even has trouble getting the bird at all.

This disparity went back to the previous Zs, too. Jared Polin had a video with the Z6ii or Z7ii where he pointed it at a kid going down a slide and pressed the AF-On and the subject detect couldn't focus on the kid going down the slide. A lot of people on forums said their cameras did it just fine. Well, I put my kids on a slide with my Z7ii and mine did exactly what Jared's did in the video. Ricci put out a video one time to demonstrate a firmware update which improved subject detect on the Z7ii. He put the camera on a tripod outside late at night when it was very dark and activated the auto-area while he walked at a 45 degree angle to the camera under a street light. The camera followed his eye perfectly. I took my Z7ii with the firmware and it couldn't track someone's eyes walking like that in broad daylight.

I seriously wonder if their are different hardware variants out their under the same sku which are responding to firmware differently. Remember the thing a few months back where there was an update that fixed some Z8s producing a strong green cast on all photos? Why only some Z8s? This kind of thing can happen sometimes when due to a shortage or as a cost saving measure or for some other reason a manufacturer uses in some cases variants of some microchips which are supposed to be compatible but may not in reality be 100%, so there can be some weird differences in behavior between a unit produced with the variants.

 

[SCoombs]

Well that’s disappointing. I’m really curious so what the results of the tests are. I think there is a hardware/calibration issue because even though the Z8 AF system isn’t perfect you should be getting a higher keeper rate.

I will add every AF system has its own idiosyncrasies (actually, I can’t speak to Canon because I have 0 experience with Canon but I presume they do as well). I have a Z8 and a Sony a7cii. When I first started using the Sony, I expected the vaunted Sony AF system to trounce Nikon’s but the differences between the two are small. The Sony performs better in some instances and the Nikon better in others. For example, when a person moves laterally across the frame, the Sony AF picks it up maybe 50% of the time
whereas the Nikon picks it up 95%+.

Additionally, when backgrounds get complicated, I tend to use my mirrorless system more like a DSLR and focus on where the action will be rather than where it is. I just don’t believe in letting the camera make every decision unless you’re in a controlled environment like a studio or a portrait session. It’s why I keep one button on each camera programmed to the dreaded single point AF mode.

I can tell you that I had previously run the tests a couple dozen times on the 180-600, 500pf, 85 1.8, and a few others and it would frequently complain about poor repeatability. I would say that about a quarter of the time I would be asked to restart a test because of poor repeatability.

 

[PFP]

Mi piacerebbe conoscere l'opinione di Steve su questo argomento, pochi come lui usano ed hanno usato l'AF delle Z9/8 in diversi scenari e soprattutto conosce anche quello di Sony, Canon, giusto per capire se Nikon ha bisogno di recuperare strada o è in linea con la concorrenza.

 

[MartyD]

Something is certainly strange! I am about to pass 500,000 images on my Z9 and most of those are shooting a variety of sports and I just haven't been disappointed with the AF. The AF has behaved as expected, there are some challenging situations but I can usually adapt the AF accordingly. I certainly wouldn't think the Z8 AF would perform that much differently than the Z9. I hope you find a solution.

I can tell you that I had previously run the tests a couple dozen times on the 180-600, 500pf, 85 1.8, and a few others and it would frequently complain about poor repeatability. I would say that about a quarter of the time I would be asked to restart a test because of poor repeatability.

That is strange as well. I ran FoCal tests on many different lenses on my DSLRs and Z cameras. The only time I would have to restart tests for poor repeatability was if I was trying to test outdoors with a long focal length and lighting was changing.

 

[PFP]

Ciao, un'altra cosa che mi viene in mente se può esserti utile, hai provato a cambiare con l'impostazione A1 sulla messa a fuoco invece di scatto? magari avrai meno scatti ma quelli che ottieni più nitidi.

 

[ajrmd]

Your Dpr style histrionics are incorrect, and counterproductive on BCG. Many photographers here not only report but share excellent imagery of challenging subjects taken with Z8,Z9 and latterly Z6 III cameras.

The shortcomings of the on sensor AF hardware are very well known, particularly compared to the AF systems in the flagship DSLRs (D5 and particularly D6). I took some time to track down and share authoritative sources on this topic, which might well help other members in search of this information.

Notwithstanding their deficiencies in detecting contrast particularly in low light, and inferior Closest Subject Priority, the AF system third generation Z cameras is extremely powerful, especially with Subject Detection and high speed iterations of the EXPEED7 so no blackout viewfinder etc.

The Z9 AF system certainly will be improved, likely the on sensor AF detect hardware is at issue. Nonetheless, the challenges are best overcome with the experience, judgement and skill to work around the deficiencies, including grabbing backgrounds, jumping off the focal subject we encounter with the Z9 and Z8.

Glad you characterize my comments as histrionics, when I've posted numerous examples and scenarios where the AF falls apart compared to Canon/Sony. Since you like DPR, I might encourage you to follow one thread on the Z forum where a fashion pro couldn't get his Z9 to reliably focus for SI swimsuit models. Tell him he's FOS too. I do appreciate that you admit there are shortcomings - most users don't. Shane took the time to produce videos demonstrating some real issues with portraits. I wonder how many people bothered to subject their bodies to similar scrutiny. It took less than 10 minutes for me to confirm that my Z8's (two bodies from two different retailers from two very different production runs) behave exactly the same way. It's not user error, or lack of familiarity either. Having shot photography since the 1970's, I'm more than capable at working around "deficiencies" and do my best to make things work. Pardon my amazement at how the af system of a flagship camera falls apart in several common scenarios, and if one can walk around the house or down to a pond and easily and repeatedly demonstrate these "deficiencies" then there is a problem.