Thom Hogan on “something that might be called a Z9II”

[Lee R]

When I had the Z9 set to take HDR images it would not allow me to do bursts. The HDR setting locked out burst shooting.

It'll lock out the C30/60/120 on the Z8, but up to 20FPS is available. The C modes are JPEG only so that makes sense.

I use HLG/HEIF very often because it works really well with apple photo which is where all my general use photo's go and I don't bother with RAW for those.

 

[O]

More musings from Thom Hogan regarding “something that might be called a Z9II.”

He lists the following as “low hanging fruit.”

• 5m dot or higher EVF. The natural thing would be to move to the Z6III viewfinder. That’s very low-hanging fruit. Going higher in dots or nits would still be relatively low-hanging, but requires a bit of extra work and may require more use of EXPEED’s bandwidth during composition.
• CFe 4.0 support. We have faster cards now, but the camera needs card slots that support them. This might not be as low-hanging a fruit as it first seems—at least not if you want to use all that speed—because EXPEED itself needs to support the extra PCIe lanes, and I don’t know if EXPEED7 does so directly or not.
• Fill in the missing features. Surprisingly, a Z9 after all the big firmware updates still doesn’t have HEIF, Pixel shift shooting, Nikon Imaging Cloud, and a few other things that appeared first on later, lesser cameras.
• Fix the customization. I outlined how the way to save and change configurations on the camera should work over six years ago. We still are using separate Banks and a single Save menu settings capability that is no longer anywhere close to state-of-the-art for a top end camera. A configuration-save rethink is mostly reprogramming the menu system to support it. Very low-hanging fruit, you just need some laborers to do the picking.
• Improve the existing features. Another pass on the machine learning for subject detection could improve focus, plus we should easily get things like stills-while-recording-video, and UVC direct streaming.
• Any kind of raw pre-release capture. It doesn’t matter if it’s 15 fps High efficiency, or even 10 fps Lossless compressed. While neither of those are optimal, they’re 100% better than we’ve got.
• Content authentication. Nikon was first to demonstrate this (on the original Z9), but it appears they’ll be last to ship it. This is fruit that probably will fall right off the tree if you look at it hard enough.

Can’t disagree with any of that. He also shares a list of “hard to reach fruit” and “fruit that is not yet ripe.” That, along with a list of capabilities of Canon R1 & Sony A1 II which are missing on the Z9.

I expect there will be robust commentary on Hogan’s post. Have at it BCG members!

How’s Your Fruit Hanging? | Thom Hogan

Considering the next generation of Nikon Z System cameras, particularly the Z9II

www.zsystemuser.com

The Z9 and Z8 both have whiskers growing, the ex-peed 7 processing is out of date at a flagship level.

What i want is

Better battery life, lighter tools, a Z7III at 60 mp or 80mp like Canon is accused of possibly doing soon.
A smaller lighter good quality camera and especially lens to work on a Drone.



Only an opinion

 

[Robert.Panick]

When I had the Z9 set to take HDR images it would not allow me to do bursts. The HDR setting locked out burst shooting.

When I do HDR, I set it to bracketed exposures, and set it to Continuous High. I get bursts that way and it only takes what is set in the bracket. The only downside is that I have to hold the shutter button down while it goes through the burst. With fast shutter speed it's not an issue, but slow shutter speeds it's kind of annoying.

 

[viper699]

Shooting directly to a SSD would be incredible.

 

[O]

Shooting directly to a SSD would be incredible.

Shooting directly to your in box or designated computer i think was on the Canon's CEO wish list some time ago.
In fact i thought it was already in play ? not certain.
If they can do that they could even simply stream with Blue tooth to a portable ssd ?

Many computers and smart phones now are getting limited in the size of hard drives, the tech world wants mostly to have everything in the cloud storage so you have to pay for it.
Soon we will only have a small hard drive for the operating system, everything you have and do will immediately go to the cloud.

Only an opinion

 

[Unscript]

Shooting directly to your in box or designated computer i think was on the Canon's CEO wish list some time ago.
In fact i thought it was already in play ? not certain.
If they can do that they could even simply stream with Blue tooth to a portable ssd ?

Many computers and smart phones now are getting limited in the size of hard drives, the tech world wants mostly to have everything in the cloud storage so you have to pay for it.
Soon we will only have a small hard drive for the operating system, everything you have and do will immediately go to the cloud.

Only an opinion

We're not quite there yet. Bluetooth is currently limited to 50 Mbps (lowercase b for bit) in its most powerful configuration, so it would take an order of magnitude of 1 second to transfer one image. Wi-Fi is faster with 2.4 Gbps, which is why the camera setups a Wi-Fi hotspot, but it's still lower than a CFexpress type B, which can go up to 1.6 GBps (uppercase B for byte) write speeds. Besides, I don't have the numbers, but I'd bet it requires more power to handle either protocol at those transfer rates.

Then there are the security and privacy (and reliability) issues with cloud storage.

For my part, I'd rather keep the memory cards, even if/when remote storage becomes more practical, but I understand the appeal. Same for the OS: I hate everything cloud-related because of security and privacy issues, but that's just my own preference.

 

[O]

We're not quite there yet. Bluetooth is currently limited to 50 Mbps (lowercase b for bit) in its most powerful configuration, so it would take an order of magnitude of 1 second to transfer one image. Wi-Fi is faster with 2.4 Gbps, which is why the camera setups a Wi-Fi hotspot, but it's still lower than a CFexpress type B, which can go up to 1.6 GBps (uppercase B for byte) write speeds. Besides, I don't have the numbers, but I'd bet it requires more power to handle either protocol at those transfer rates.

Then there are the security and privacy (and reliability) issues with cloud storage.

For my part, I'd rather keep the memory cards, even if/when remote storage becomes more practical, but I understand the appeal. Same for the OS: I hate everything cloud-related because of security and privacy issues, but that's just my own preference.

Thank you, i dislike cloud period, i totally dislike social media and have nothing to do with it.

I just recall the CEO from Canon once saying we need to work on connectivity, so as you take your images its automatically streaming to you in box or cloud account.

Its fair to assume that AI would be going through all our cloud images building data profiles or such, I don't know, but i am so skeptical.

 

[Robert.Panick]

Shooting directly to your in box or designated computer i think was on the Canon's CEO wish list some time ago.
In fact i thought it was already in play ? not certain.
If they can do that they could even simply stream with Blue tooth to a portable ssd ?

Many computers and smart phones now are getting limited in the size of hard drives, the tech world wants mostly to have everything in the cloud storage so you have to pay for it.
Soon we will only have a small hard drive for the operating system, everything you have and do will immediately go to the cloud.

Only an opinion

I agree with you on built in storage. My previous computer a Dell XPS 17 had 8 TB on it. Unfortunately, they don't make the XPS 17 anymore. The replacement XPS 16 only goes up to 4 TB. You can still get 8 TB, but you have to go to a gaming laptop.

 

[Robert.Panick]

Thank you, i dislike cloud period, i totally dislike social media and have nothing to do with it.

I just recall the CEO from Canon once saying we need to work on connectivity, so as you take your images its automatically streaming to you in box or cloud account.

Its fair to assume that AI would be going through all our cloud images building data profiles or such, I don't know, but i am so skeptical.

My issue with cloud is you have to have a good Internet connection. My connection finally got upgraded, but when I'm traveling the cloud just won't cut it.

 

[viper699]

Shooting directly to your in box or designated computer i think was on the Canon's CEO wish list some time ago.
In fact i thought it was already in play ? not certain.
If they can do that they could even simply stream with Blue tooth to a portable ssd ?

Many computers and smart phones now are getting limited in the size of hard drives, the tech world wants mostly to have everything in the cloud storage so you have to pay for it.
Soon we will only have a small hard drive for the operating system, everything you have and do will immediately go to the cloud.

Only an opinion

Shooting to a portable SSD is what I meant.

Local storage local use, ie not the cloud, will always be around. I don’t see believe HDs will be smaller at all. Immediately to the cloud- only for those who want it, it won’t be the standard.

 

[O]

Shooting to a portable SSD is what I meant.

Local storage local use, ie not the cloud, will always be around. I don’t see believe HDs will be smaller at all. Immediately to the cloud- only for those who want it, it won’t be the standard.

Understand, and yes it would be very handy, we may not have to shell out for a lot of expensive cards.

 

[JoelKlein]

I’m contemplating about the future.
If I’m working for Nikon and I have to decide how to keep the new cameras braking new grounds, I would intentionally hold back some features available today, so I don’t get stuck tomorrow.

Global shutter;
The current Z9 is amazing as it is.
We all know that global shutter is possible, just not for the Z9 price range, specially when it has to maintain 45mp at ISO 64…
So that’s out of the question.

All what’s left to do, is RAW pre capture, improved AF, Open gate video, etc. nothing groundbreaking in the hardware arena.

If Nikon fulfills the list we have in this thread, what would they to in 3 years from now?

 

[fcotterill]

Video features prominently in the future ILC industry. The goals include speeding up the sampling rate of images, so recording the maximum of information present in the "photon stream" from the illuminated scene, framed on to the camera sensor.

This requires sensors to recognize even more dynamic range, even in scenes experiencing rapidly shifts in scene illumination. Recording at much higher frame rates is going to be as essential.

Effectively, the camera preserves the still image as a discrete "frozen" sample of this datastream hitting the imaging sensor.

The markets include entertainment, including cinematography and vlogging, advertising, journalism, as well as the many genres of still photography. Don't overlook industry, especially real-time imaging and robotics in manufacturing, medicine and obviously the defense and space industries.

Nikon is active and innovating in all these markets, especially the future technology needed in optics, robotics and new sensor innovations. The future Z flagships will incorporate aspects of the new technology, in as much as what is feasible to include in the design of the handheld ILC.

 

[JoelKlein]

Video features prominently in the future ILC industry. The goals include speeding up the sampling rate of images, so recording the maximum of information present in the "photon stream" from the illuminated scene, framed on to the camera sensor.

This requires sensors to recognize even more dynamic range, even in scenes experiencing rapidly shifting dynamics of scene illumination. Recording at much higher frame rates is going to be as essential.

Effectively, the Still camera image preserves a discrete "frozen" sample of this datastream on the imaging sensor.

The markets include entertainment, including cinematography and vlogging, journalism, as well as the many genres of still photography. Don't overlook industry, especially real-time imaging and robotics in manufacturing, medicine and obviously the defense and space industries.

Nikon is active and innovating in all these markets, especially the future technology needed in optics, robotics and new sensor innovations. The future Z flagships will incorporate aspects of the new technology, in as much as what it's feasible to include in the design of the handheld ILC.

So you’re saying a new sensor is the future?

 

[O]

So you’re saying a new sensor is the future?

This link provides a current broad opinion of the three flag ships, it mentions the difference between global shutters etc.
Reading in between the lines is also interesting.

Knowing why the Nikon Z9 has some advantages in Dynamic range.

The fundamentals are time light and speed and to this day always has been.
Very high ISO demand usually sees a slight compromise dynamic range thrown out.
Very high speeds also usually makes dynamic range suffer a little.
The Z9 has in my opinion the very best out of camera files out of the tree players.
Nikon Knows this and i feel their decision to priorities file quality integrity is key, its further harmonized with the formulas in their glass along with a huge range of glass options.

If i am wrong then i apologies.

Going forward the main challenge i feel for the Z9 II is weight, bulk, this was evident by the number of Pros selling their Z9 for a Z8 including myself, a former Z9 owner now a Z8 owner.
Some Pros mentioned to me they would rather have two Z8 units in place of one Z9, each to their own i guess.

The consumer or market demand and growth is Video, the Z9 is very heavy for gimbals. Yet very capable and in more areas enviable for video.

More low light focusing sensitivity would be expected, new generation IBIS is sitting on the shelf, next level processing is needed as we know to utilize the gen 4 cards plus plus, higher quality oled.

There is a reason for the Z9 being only 20 fps in RAW, will that change ?

Another challenge is transmission and connectivity.

I hear people come or move to Nikon not because of the Z9, but the Glass.
Interesting times.

Will Nikon differentiate the Z9 from the Z8 as mentioned in the video, who knows.

Only an opinion

 

[Lee R]

I’m contemplating about the future.
If I’m working for Nikon and I have to decide how to keep the new cameras braking new grounds, I would intentionally hold back some features available today, so I don’t get stuck tomorrow.

Global shutter;
The current Z9 is amazing as it is.
We all know that global shutter is possible, just not for the Z9 price range, specially when it has to maintain 45mp at ISO 64…
So that’s out of the question.

All what’s left to do, is RAW pre capture, improved AF, Open gate video, etc. nothing groundbreaking in the hardware arena.

If Nikon fulfills the list we have in this thread, what would they to in 3 years from now?

Nikon's not really in a spot to hold back though. Right now Canon and Sony have RAW precapture. It would really make sense for them to firmware update that right now to 20 FPS if they can, which is still behind the current competition, and then work on a good speed improvement for version ii.

I would think global shutter and improvements on the list would be what the Z9ii can work on but right now they're third place by a decent margin in market share and can't afford to hold back features from a position of already being behind the competition in many of these points.

It's probably wiser for them to gain market share right now which very competitive camera bodies and sell a bunch more lenses. They probably also want to add more inexpensive options like the 40 f2, 28 2.8 to hedge against the many Chinese brands who keep producing lenses that punch way above the price tags.

 

[fcotterill]

So you’re saying a new sensor is the future?

New sensors are inevitable for a global shutter and to improve dynamic range.

Nikon's sensor lab has been busy for some years on novel solutions, as well as optimizing sensor microlenses and pixel microarchitecture etc. This became generally known with respect to Nikon's development of their D5 sensor, but their sensor R&D began in 1988 at least

Development of a stacked CMOS image sensor | News | Nikon About Us

www.nikon.com

New Nikon Sensor | Cameras and Photography Explained | Thom Hogan

Nikon's new image sensor

www.bythom.com

Nikon’s Sensor Breakthrough: A Move Toward Independence and Cinema - Y.M.Cinema Magazine

Traditionally reliant on Sony-made sensors for its flagship cameras, Nikon appears to be forging its own path.

ymcinema.com

Nikon's Hybrid Sensor Patent Describes a Selective Global Shutter

Nikon's hybrid sensor patent tries to have its cake and eat it too.

petapixel.com

Re: Is Nikon continues to design, research and develop its own sensors?: Nikon Z Mirrorless Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Expert news, reviews and videos of the latest digital cameras, lenses, accessories, and phones. Get answers to your questions in our photography forums.

www.dpreview.com

 

[Calson]

Olympus OM-1 cameras had raw precapture several years ago. That and a 5:4 image crop would be of value to me.

BH Photo is discounting the Z9 by $500 which may indicate a move to reduce inventory with a new model appearing.

 

[Replytoken]

Olympus OM-1 cameras had raw precapture several years ago. That and a 5:4 image crop would be of value to me.

BH Photo is discounting the Z9 by $500 which may indicate a move to reduce inventory with a new model appearing.

IIRC, Nikon often runs big sales in January-February to reduce inventory before their year end in March.

--Ken

 

[MotoPixel]

IIRC, Nikon often runs big sales in January-February to reduce inventory before their year end in March.

--Ken

Exactly...huge sales push to get product out to dealer inventory/market before end of March, though much of that depends on where their sales numbers are going to end up for the year. If they've met their goals, some might be held until April/May, especially if the next year's goals might present a challenge...good to start the year with some padding. Same is true with new products that become available to ship and haven't been factored into the current year's BP.

I can't speak to Nikon specifically, but the Japanese company I worked for for 22 years did not like to have a bad month or quarter (who does, but things happen), so it was not uncommon to offer incentives to pull sales in or push sales out make sure there were no "misses" to garner the attention of upper management. Far better to have 3 months where you meet your goals, even if barely, than one or two misses and then one blowout month. Of course different companies have different sensitivities to this...just my experience.

Cost me a good bit of money to be an early adopter of the 600pf, but hey, I've had an incredible lens to use for 11 months...couldn't rent one for a year for $1000 and holding on to the 500pf for the year probably would have cost me $500-700 in reduced selling price. How's that for rationalizing the situation?