Workshop or Tour Costs

[Calson]

Workshops and tours are business operations meant to provide income for the operator. When you get $200 in services like the boat rides that leaves $1390 for having 20% of the leader's time over a two day period in the field. You save auto rental costs with a workshop and so that saves you about $150 to $200. Usually you need to stay at the hotel where the group leader will be staying to avoid needing a car.

For a trip to Florida to photograph ospreys my cost for a half day of a guided boat was $400 in total for my wife and a friend. We had control of where the boat went and time of day and how long at a particular spot.

Where I will consider hiring a guide is in a country where I need a translator as much as a guide/driver with a car. That was the case in Brazil and in Cambodia.

There is also the safety factor for a woman traveling alone in a tourist places where they can become a target.

 

[Butlerkid]

Workshops and tours are business operations meant to provide income for the operator. When you get $200 in services like the boat rides that leaves $1390 for having 20% of the leader's time over a two day period in the field. You save auto rental costs with a workshop and so that saves you about $150 to $200. Usually you need to stay at the hotel where the group leader will be staying to avoid needing a car.

For a trip to Florida to photograph ospreys my cost for a half day of a guided boat was $400 in total for my wife and a friend. We had control of where the boat went and time of day and how long at a particular spot.

Where I will consider hiring a guide is in a country where I need a translator as much as a guide/driver with a car. That was the case in Brazil and in Cambodia.

There is also the safety factor for a woman traveling alone in a tourist places where they can become a target.

^^^^ THIS

What do you need to pay for versus what you can do for yourself?

My husband and I often make trips (including international trips) where I develop a route, reserve a rental car, arrange for lodging, etc. We take care of everything ourselves. We don't need photo instruction.

However, if there are access concerns, language or safety issues, or just the logistics of knowing WHERE to go WHEN......we will take advantage of a well-researched tour leader.

You need to define what you are willing to pay for that which you cannot do for yourself.

 

[ricardo00]

^^^^ THIS

What do you need to pay for versus what you can do for yourself?

My husband and I often make trips (including international trips) where I develop a route, reserve a rental car, arrange for lodging, etc. We take care of everything ourselves. We don't need photo instruction.

However, if there are access concerns, language or safety issues, or just the logistics of knowing WHERE to go WHEN......we will take advantage of a well-researched tour leader.

You need to define what you are willing to pay for that which you cannot do for yourself.

I agree with all you have said. Though for me, the bigger disappointment is to pay for a wildlife photographer's trip and find out that they only care about getting their own shots and have little regard for the group.

 

[Butlerkid]

I agree with all you have said. Though for me, the bigger disappointment is to pay for a wildlife photographer's trip and find out that they only care about getting their own shots and have little regard for the group.

That's where one's research of a tour leader is paramount! I've had a few tour leaders who march in FRONT of their paying clients or position vehicles to get THEIR shots.........totally unacceptable!

 

[Replytoken]

I'll sidestep the question of cost and value as it has been discussed above, but if I was paying for both a trip to photograph and for instruction, I would do as much as possible in advance of the trip to learn as much as I could about both my equipment and my subject (which the OP may have done or will do). Two days will fly by, and if you are not familiar with what the instructor is teaching or how your subject behaves, then you cannot take as much advantage of your time and instruction. Ideally, you should be able to understand and change settings without having to fiddle around or look up what they do.

Good luck,

--Ken

 

[IainD]

I have been on numerous trips with Matt Shetzer from Colorado. He never even touches his camera until everyone is happy and shooting, and even then only if he knows the customers' abilities. And he never takes the best position for himself.

 

[MrFotoFool]

Just to clarify one misconception people are posting, I believe this tour DOES include the hotel. Still, it is only for one night, so price still seems too steep to me. Of course like any business it is a case of supply and demand, meaning if the tours (any tours) sell out at their advertised price, there is no reason whatsoever for the tour leader to offer it at a lower price. I thought I finally had a decent job (after years of scraping by), but based on the prices photographers are paying for photo tours there must be a lot of people who make way more than I do.

 

[Tom Reynolds]

I spent some time before answering your question.

I can't walk very far so I focus on trips that are boat supported, car supported with minimal walking or in blinds.

So let me give you some data and let you draw your own conclusions.

Dick Vautrinot (www.dvwildlife.com) charges $250 for 1/2 a day $500 per day so you would get 3 full days with Dick on his boat for less money and would have greater photographic diversity. Boat can sit about 6.

We spent $1600 for 4 days at the Everglades and Lake Okeechobee with Captain Dave but that was a few years ago so I estimate that it would now be about $2000. This is for two of us on the boat and nobody else. I would love to do that trip again, but Dave is retired, and I can't get him to come out of it at any price.

Laguna Seca Ranch (www.lagunasecaranch.com) charges $280/day if you are alone in the blind but it is typically $240/day because there are normally two or more.

Kriszina Scheeff (www.facebook.com/KSNaturePhotography) charges us $650 per day within driving distance but if she can't go home a night we pay her hotel room.

And the Alligator Farm is $150 for a photographers pass that is good for a year. Minimal walking but maybe more than I can do.

 

[PeggyBaker]

Hi there and happy new year! I have a question for this group. I'm a 20 year+ photographer but new to wildlife/birding in the last 2 years. I have yet to attend a workshop and don't know what's reasonable, cost-wise. Right now, I need to stick to short, local outings around the southeast U.S.

I was looking at this one coming up in February. Do you think for what is offered that it's too expensive or just right? Could I be looking at other opportunities? I will be in the Tampa/Sarasota area in February, which is why this appealed to me, but I'm really open to anything.

Thank you.

If you are a 20+ year photographer, I'm sure you are familiar with your gear and you are looking for specific help with technique relating to wildlife and birds. To get the most from a workshop, I'd recommend looking at Steve Perry's videos on this website, and google a few other wildlife shooters with youtube stuff. Photographing birds in flight takes good gear and lots of practice. Maybe you can find someone leading a workshop who uses the same type of gear you are familiar with, that will speed up your learning curve. Try to get personal recommendations, because someone can be a talented and artistic photographer and still be a poor communicator.

 

[jhrobinson]

Annalise Kaylor has a Florida bird workshop coming up near Sarasota. I've done one in the past and wish I could go this year. It's shorebirds, burrowing owls, and a few different locations. She's a good teacher, doesn't sit and hang out behind her own camera, and I felt like I had read 5 books on birds by the time I was done. Learned a lot. https://www.annalisekaylor.com/florida-bird-photography-workshop

 

[Whiskeyman]

Is it too expensive? I can't say because I don't know exactly what the tour will help you shoot. If it results in you learning more than you currently know and getting a lot of "wall hangers" and "prize winners", it just might be worth it. But, again, since I've never hired this guide, I can't really comment on its value. (The fact that you're questioning the price tells me that you might be more comfortable on a less expensive trip.) If the photo guide has to hire a boat captain, this price seems a bit more reasonable; and in many places/for many species having boat access is essential. Earlier posts have mentioned other guides in the region that you can look into as an alternate if you desire to.

However, that this tour is for photographers of all abilities is what would worry me the most. I've been in a local class where photographers of varied experience levels participated, and the guide/instructor spent a very inordinate amout of the time with the new photographers. For that reason, I prefer to take trips/tours/classes with photographers of similar experience and knowledge to mine.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

 

[CoyoteCreationsNW]

Econ 101 - A thing is worth what an informed buyer is willing to pay for it, and each buyer is different. I'm 73 years old and most of my recreation has been fishing and camping since I was 9 years old. I'm very comfortable in the woods. A 20 something, 90 lb female who grew up in an city apartment might place greater value on working with a group and guide. I'm sure I would learn something but after decades with a camera I don't see much value in an instructional workshop but someone whose wildlife photogaphy experience is measured in months might find such a tour invaluable. I emptied my saving account to spend 10 days in a wilderness area with a well known wildlife guide. It was very expensive and I will probably never do it again BUT sitting in the late summer sun watching a sea otter circle our zodiac for 20 minutes as close as 30 feet,...priceless.

 

[French Avocado]

I have been on a number of workshops - mostly requiring plane travel both domestic and foreign. Some of the "bargain" deals are a bargain for a reason. Some of the "expensive" tours have been expensive for a reason. If you have higher class demands then you may expect to pay more.

 

[Whiskeyman]

... If you have higher class demands then you may expect to pay more.

With apologies to Warner Brothers' cartoon "The Three Little Bops", I consider this forum "... a high-class place with a high-class crowd."

 

[Calson]

If one needs photo instruction it is better to pay for a day or two of a pro photographer's time. Workshops spend more time in classroom instruction on using Lightroom than on improving ones photography skills and knowledge.

There are photographers whose websites provide advance notice of their skills and area of concentration (wildlife, landscapes, astro, etc.). They usually provide rates for hiring them. One gets 100% of the photographer's attention instead of 5-10 percent with a group of any size. If there are 8 participants more time is spent just getting everyone inside the vehicle at each stop. One has to be able to get out the others out of ones frame when shooting and tripod placement becomes an impediment as anyone who has experienced the bear jams in Yellowstone understands.

Something I have experienced first hand on my last 3 group trips was having someone arrive who was infected with some bug at home and decided to travel anyway and so they infected me and I lost a full day on each of these trips. Hiring a guide for me and my wife avoids this hazard.

 

[Chris Weller]

As far as the cost of the originally posted workshop, how much do you think a boat captain would charge for three rides like this? I really have NO idea, I'm just asking because I wonder how much of the cost is for the boat.

You’d be surprised how little the captains and guides are paid on these workshops. Especially outside the US.

Inside the US. If you are payin $500 for a day trip with 5 customers on the boat, the captain is probably making $300-$500 and the rest is going to the workshop coordinator - $2,000 for workshop coordinator - $500 for boat.

Outside US. They often charge same price if the customers are US, but pay the captain and or guide 1/2 or 1/3 that amount. You are paying for access and knowledge of where to go. if the workshop coordinator does not offer meals, transportation, lodging and/or solid instruction you are really wasting your money beyond the first day.

Honestly, most workshop hosts/coordinators are burnt out. They go to the same locations over and over and over and they have very little interest in being there and less interest in answering the same 15 questions. They sometimes get excited to take pictures themselves when the conditions are perfect. Otherwise, most are just there to collect a paycheck for bringing you there. I’m not putting them down…I could never, ever do what they do. I would lose interest in about 2 weeks, let alone 2 months or 2 years,

There are a few…a very few with the gift a loving every minute of what they do, no matter how many times they do it and can explain what ISO is to a novice for the 987th time and still have a genuine smile on their face….god bless them.

 

[Calson]

I paid $400 for a half day for three of us on a lake in Florida. In South America I have paid $80 for a half day with a boat and can decide when that period starts. In Cambodia I paid $40 for half a day with a full size boat for my wife and I. When negotiating at the dock it helps to not have expensive jewelry or wrist watch as they do size up your ability to pay more than the standard rate.

 

[JAJohnson]

When negotiating at the dock it helps to not have expensive jewelry or wrist watch as they do size up your ability to pay more than the standard rate.

If you’re carrying expensive camera gear does your watch makes much difference?

 

[PeggyBaker]

I paid $400 for a half day for three of us on a lake in Florida. In South America I have paid $80 for a half day with a boat and can decide when that period starts. In Cambodia I paid $40 for half a day with a full size boat for my wife and I. When negotiating at the dock it helps to not have expensive jewelry or wrist watch as they do size up your ability to pay more than the standard rate.

Bargain hunting in poor countries isn't a good look. And doesn't really relate to what the OP was asking.

 

[MrFotoFool]

Honestly, most workshop hosts/coordinators are burnt out. They go to the same locations over and over and over and they have very little interest in being there and less interest in answering the same 15 questions. They sometimes get excited to take pictures themselves when the conditions are perfect. Otherwise, most are just there to collect a paycheck for bringing you there...

I am genuinely curious to learn how you know this.

 

[Chris Weller]

I am genuinely curious to learn how you know this.

I’ve been on a lot of workshops.…and I’ve had conversations with many of them about their business. Perhaps it’s just me after having been on many and been doing this so long, but I find that the vast majority of the value of the workshop is in the logistics coordination.

I been on many workshops where the host is either not engaged emotionally or mentally or if they are engaged it’s so they can take their own photographs. I think it happens far more often with those that have a regular schedule (they go to the same location every day for 2 months and have done it for 10 years in a row). Far less so than those who lead groups out a few times a year on a major trips around the world.

It’s kind of like teachers in high school or university….some just LOVE teaching and helping and have tremendous patience and are born to do it. Others…may be great photographers and people flock to their workshops because of that, but they may not be the best teachers….it’s just not in their nature. If you can find someone that is BOTH, you’ve hit a home run.

Anyway, that’s been my experience…If someone is going to spend big dollars on a long, international trip, especially…..I would strongly advise that they watch some video’s, get to know their personality and look at their reviews to be sure they are a good fit for their personality and what YOU need.

 

[Juliette]

If you are a 20+ year photographer, I'm sure you are familiar with your gear and you are looking for specific help with technique relating to wildlife and birds. To get the most from a workshop, I'd recommend looking at Steve Perry's videos on this website, and google a few other wildlife shooters with youtube stuff. Photographing birds in flight takes good gear and lots of practice. Maybe you can find someone leading a workshop who uses the same type of gear you are familiar with, that will speed up your learning curve. Try to get personal recommendations, because someone can be a talented and artistic photographer and still be a poor communicator.

Yes @PeggyBaker - that's exactly what I'm looking for - specific technique instruction relating to wildlife and birds. I am not so much interested in BIF but I like your idea on starting with Steve's videos and such. Thank you so much! I'll start there.

 

[Activert]

Most of you must be rich if you think sixteen hundred dollars for two days is a good deal. There is no way I would ever pay that much (even if I could afford it) to see a common species like that. I have never done any photo tour because the ones that are photo specific are just prohibitivly expensive. However in two months I am hiring a private guide in Spain for two days to see Iberian lynx - morning drives to spots he knows they have been recently seen and afternoon in a hide on private land where they are frequently seen. That is only 300 euros a day and hotel in heart of lynx country is only 55 euros a night. So I am getting a rare species that is very difficult to find on your own with a one-on-one guide for a fraction of what this spoonbill tour is charging to take five people to see a species you can find on your own. TO ME it would not be worth it, but only you can decide if it is right FOR YOU. Apparently most others on this thread think it is worthwhile and I am the minority opinion.

I am with your minority opinion and I completely agree with you. They are so many free videos to learn ( Steve has a lot) and so easy to find destination specially in Florida where you can photograph spoonbill and other birds.

 

[RecalcitrantRon]

Before you criticize the price too heavily, the rookeries in this area are in Tampa Bay and only accessible by boat. A large portion of the cost is associated with having a captain, exclusive use of the boat, and the guidance they provide. You are not allowed to be within a specified distance of the land - 100 feet. You need to be in the right place with the right angles to get good photos.

Arthur Morris had a similar spoonbill trip in 2023 at the same time of year. He charged $1199 for 1.5 days including boat, captain, and expenses. His tours likely involve standing in the water and photographing the spoonbills. He has the same limit of 5 people. Artie is a friend and a fantastic photographer. His style is a bit crusty - he is serious about photography, teaching, and working hard to get the shot. Some people find him a little too "New York". I've co-taught with him in 2022 at a Jekyll Island workshop. If you want to learn, he will do a great job.

The 2023 Spoonbill Boat 1-1/2 DAY MINI-IPT. The Expanded Winter IPT (Including the 1 1/2 DAY MINI IPT). And Spoonbill & Canon EF 800mm f/5.6 L IS Memories « Arthur Morris/BIRDS AS ART

www.birdsasart-blog.com

Being from there, you can’t be a “little too New York”. It’s more of a binary state of being. You either are or you aren’t. ;-)

 

[Abinoone]

I’ve been on a lot of workshops.…and I’ve had conversations with many of them about their business. Perhaps it’s just me after having been on many and been doing this so long, but I find that the vast majority of the value of the workshop is in the logistics coordination.

I been on many workshops where the host is either not engaged emotionally or mentally or if they are engaged it’s so they can take their own photographs. I think it happens far more often with those that have a regular schedule (they go to the same location every day for 2 months and have done it for 10 years in a row). Far less so than those who lead groups out a few times a year on a major trips around the world.

It’s kind of like teachers in high school or university….some just LOVE teaching and helping and have tremendous patience and are born to do it. Others…may be great photographers and people flock to their workshops because of that, but they may not be the best teachers….it’s just not in their nature. If you can find someone that is BOTH, you’ve hit a home run.

Anyway, that’s been my experience…If someone is going to spend big dollars on a long, international trip, especially…..I would strongly advise that they watch some video’s, get to know their personality and look at their reviews to be sure they are a good fit for their personality and what YOU need.

I’m sorry that your workshop experience has been so disappointing. That’s not been my experience at all. Generally speaking, I’ve had pretty good luck, but I’ve always researched the workshops well ahead of time, relied on word of mouth recommendations, and read client reviews (or spoken with the participants). Fortunately, the omnipresence of social media makes advanced research easier than it used to be. There is so much competition in the photo workshop space these days that deficient ones tend to be weeded out pretty quickly, at least in my experience.