Z vs F Mount Foolishness

[Larry S.]

Those are fantastic coyote shots. But I think there is a false assumption here. People who move from SLR to mirrorless are NOT saying that you cannot get excellent shots with SLR gear. (Maybe you didn't mean to imply that they are saying that, but that is how I read the opening statement). There are reasons to make the switch beyond just getting good pictures (which OF COURSE you can do with F mount or any other SLR system). For some people these are valid reasons to switch and for others they are not. Each individual will have to decide (but just getting good pictures is not the deciding factor, though there may be a few exceptions who think they somehow will magically get better pictures if they switch).

Reasons to go mirrorless:
Lighter weight (helpful if you hike or are older).
Better corner sharpness (important for architecture and some landscape, unimportant for wildlife).
Electronic viewfinder (helpful for low light and for photographing the sun with a telephoto - no risk of eye damage).
Focus points cover entire frame (helpful if you want subject on far left or far right).
In-body-stabilization (works with lens stabilization on telephotos; easier to get sharp handheld shots).

Fred, I know you forgot to mention shutter noise, mirror flap. Many times critters have fled or flown away after the “ratta tat tat” of my DSLR. This issue and the Zs IBIS made the switch a no-brainer for wildlife. However, this thread is about the F v Z glass, not the supporting platforms. The FTZ adapters work well for the most part with F mount glass like the 500PF. Older lenses not so much. Most of us can remember how to manual focus on something that isn’t streaking across in front of our cameras. Then maybe we can? I have a 180mm f/2.8 ai-s lens that I’m itching to try with the Z8 on some birds near our feeders. I’m not throwing my F mount glass under the bus to have the latest and greatest offerings. For me there has to be the expectation of tangible improvements over current results.……

 

[DougC]

Beautiful coyote shot! Stick with F mount, switch to Z mount, whichever way you go I'd be willing to bet that you'll still be making wonderful images

Thanks!

 

[Jamie Baker]

Outstanding photo! There’s no bigger fan of the 500 PF than me, it’s my all time favorite and most used lens.

 

[Tibor Hrnko]

Valid arguments both from pro and con side of the discussion guys. Well done.

I am keeping two sets of F lenses:
Sigma Art: 14-24 f/2.8 and 35 f/1.4 as I do not use short focal lengths very much and those two are excellent.
Sigma Sport 500 f/4. I had until recently Z 100-400 S and Z 800 PF, hence 500 fit into the gap. Now when I have Z 600 PF, I will sell it if the results from the new glass are on par with it. But it is still an excellent lens for Z9 no matter what my decision is going to be.

 

[foxysport]

Keeping 200mm f2 mark 2, 300mm f2.8 latest, Sigma f4 500mm, Nikon f4e FL 600mm (and very happy with those and TC's working really well with the adapter for Z9). By the way, I've got a native 400mm f4.5 and use it with a TC1.4 and, to be honest, Sigma destroys that (apart from the weight factor).

 

[StefanSC]

The fact that people are dumping their F mount lenses at ridiculously low prices still amazes me.

First off, that's a very nice shot.

Secondly, between the quality of the lenses and the bodies, Nikon has made a compelling argument for moving to Z-mount for wildlife shooters. You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount.

That being said, I strongly believe that what you are seeing is a result of the current buyer's demographic ...
An educated guess is that the bulk of people dumping F-mount lenses for Z-mount (or other mirrorless mounts) are of the retired or nearly retired demographic. People who have disposable income (mortgage is paid, kids are off living their lives) but not a lot of time or patience left.
So they are willing to move to Z-mount for the benefits as quickly as possible, with as little friction as possible.

On the bright side, this is creating a nice used gear market for people in the 30-40 years old gap that might not have afforded something like a 500mm PF or a 500mm f4 before. And the camera market is getting a breather from the freefall of the last 10 years.

On the other hand, if I'm right, this is going to bite back the camera manufacturers badly in about 10 years or so ...

P.S:
What amazes me is that you can get a D810 body in near-mint condition for under 800$ and it can still deliver stunning shots of pretty much any subject when paired with one of those dumped F-mount lenses.

 

[DougC]

Outstanding photo! There’s no bigger fan of the 500 PF than me, it’s my all time favorite and most used lens.

Thanks!

 

[DougC]

First off, that's a very nice shot.

Secondly, between the quality of the lenses and the bodies, Nikon has made a compelling argument for moving to Z-mount for wildlife shooters. You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount.

That being said, I strongly believe that what you are seeing is a result of the current buyer's demographic ...
An educated guess is that the bulk of people dumping F-mount lenses for Z-mount (or other mirrorless mounts) are of the retired or nearly retired demographic. People who have disposable income (mortgage is paid, kids are off living their lives) but not a lot of time or patience left.
So they are willing to move to Z-mount for the benefits as quickly as possible, with as little friction as possible.

On the bright side, this is creating a nice used gear market for people in the 30-40 years old gap that might not have afforded something like a 500mm PF or a 500mm f4 before. And the camera market is getting a breather from the freefall of the last 10 years.

On the other hand, if I'm right, this is going to bite back the camera manufacturers badly in about 10 years or so ...

P.S:
What amazes me is that you can get a D810 body in near-mint condition for under 800$ and it can still deliver stunning shots of pretty much any subject when paired with one of those dumped F-mount lenses.

Thanks. I agree with your thoughts.

 

[foxysport]

Not wanting to sound antagonistic, far from it, but could this statement be qualified further: "You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount."? What specifically is very hard--I mean with Nikon Z9 plus adapter and the respective F-mount lenses?

 

[Geoff_G]

First off, that's a very nice shot.

Secondly, between the quality of the lenses and the bodies, Nikon has made a compelling argument for moving to Z-mount for wildlife shooters. You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount.

That being said, I strongly believe that what you are seeing is a result of the current buyer's demographic ...
An educated guess is that the bulk of people dumping F-mount lenses for Z-mount (or other mirrorless mounts) are of the retired or nearly retired demographic. People who have disposable income (mortgage is paid, kids are off living their lives) but not a lot of time or patience left.
So they are willing to move to Z-mount for the benefits as quickly as possible, with as little friction as possible.

On the bright side, this is creating a nice used gear market for people in the 30-40 years old gap that might not have afforded something like a 500mm PF or a 500mm f4 before. And the camera market is getting a breather from the freefall of the last 10 years.

On the other hand, if I'm right, this is going to bite back the camera manufacturers badly in about 10 years or so ...

P.S:
What amazes me is that you can get a D810 body in near-mint condition for under 800$ and it can still deliver stunning shots of pretty much any subject when paired with one of those dumped F-mount lenses.

I resemble this remark...

And I agree with your used market comment. Telephoto lenses are something I could not afford/justify when I was 30 something but in today's market they are 'really good buys" (ahem).

 

[DougC]

Not wanting to sound antagonistic, far from it, but could this statement be qualified further: "You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount."? What specifically is very hard--I mean with Nikon Z9 plus adapter and the respective F-mount lenses?

Not quite sure what you are getting at. My point was that people are dumping excellent lenses for excellent lenses. Personally, I can’t think of a a situation other than the 58mm f0.95 Noct (for which there is no equivalent F mount and a perfectly wonderful lenses that I, personally have absolutely no use for) that one of the F mount lenses can’t handle just as well. Eliminating the FTZ is convenient but is it worth hundreds and in some instances, thousands of dollars to accomplish? In my case, due to age and physical condition, I have invested in some Z mount lenses. However, I’m sticking with a few of my time proven F mount lenses until I can see that they truly are not producing images that are, in my opinion, just as good as the Z mount images.

When I post on sites other than this one, I purposely leave out the camera/lens data so people offer opinions and make judgements based on the image, not the equipment.

 

[Geoff_G]

Not wanting to sound antagonistic, far from it, but could this statement be qualified further: "You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount."? What specifically is very hard--I mean with Nikon Z9 plus adapter and the respective F-mount lenses?

I took that to mean Z mount cameras being more adept than DSLR's which IMO is entirely true. Those "easier to get Z cam shots" are not specific to just Z mount lenses - the Z8/9 AF system works with F mounts lenses too....(altho most Z mount lenses are definite upgrades over F mount counterparts).

 

[Ralph]

I know 99% of the folks who participate on this site are well aware of it but it’s such a ridiculous argument for the huge percentage of us who actually get out in the field and use our equipment. Original and crop at 72 dpi. The fact that people are dumping their F mount lenses at ridiculously low prices still amazes me.
View attachment 76698View attachment 76699

Beautiful Doug

 

[DougC]

Eautiful Doug

Thanks!

 

[DougC]

I took that to mean Z mount cameras being more adept than DSLR's which IMO is entirely true. Those "easier to get Z cam shots" are not specific to just Z mount lenses - the Z8/9 AF system works with F mounts lenses too....(altho most Z mount lenses are definite upgrades over F mount counterparts).

No doubt the ML bodies are superior in almost all ways but I‘m referring to lenses here, not cameras.

 

[foxysport]

I took that to mean Z mount cameras being more adept than DSLR's which IMO is entirely true. Those "easier to get Z cam shots" are not specific to just Z mount lenses - the Z8/9 AF system works with F mounts lenses too....(altho most Z mount lenses are definite upgrades over F mount counterparts).

Right, thanks, I took it to mean that the Z-lenses made it possible to do shots that would be very hard to achieve with similar spec F-mount lenses--on the same Z cameras In the fullness of time, I'd definitely switch over to 600mm TC from 600mm FL but it is a) not very affordable, and more importantly, b) not very justifiable.

 

[ssheipel]

Nice shots. Beautiful. If not for your post topic I wouldn't have likely even have looked at the gear specs! And few industries as fully in the grip of 'new is better' marketing frenzy than photography, sadly. Are the technical changes of the Z system 'better' I'm certain they are technically. The problem with that however is we're profoundly engulfed in marketing crap which means new means the old is not worthy, (eg one MUST replace, ah buy, new) which of course is utter BS, most certainly when it comes to the final product -- photos!

 

[StefanSC]

Not wanting to sound antagonistic, far from it, but could this statement be qualified further: "You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount."? What specifically is very hard--I mean with Nikon Z9 plus adapter and the respective F-mount lenses?

I was talking about the system as a whole, including the bodies. Maybe I should have said Z-system instead of Z-mount?

Big kudos to Nikon that they don't relegate their F-mount lenses to secondary class status when used on Z bodies...

But using native lenses does remove some frictions (e.g: who here has not lost a shot due to futzing with a TC?) and provide some extra benefits (e.g: Syncro VR that can allow you to just squeak through with a shot that otherwise would have been a failure).

Also, I'd venture on an educated guess that there are people out there that can hand hold a 3kg lens for a long time but can't a 5kg one and as such have taken shots with a 600mm f4 Z that they couldn't have with the F mount version.

 

[foxysport]

Everything on point @StefanSC. Agreed!

 

[DougC]

Nice shots. Beautiful. If not for your post topic I wouldn't have likely even have looked at the gear specs! And few industries as fully in the grip of 'new is better' marketing frenzy than photography, sadly. Are the technical changes of the Z system 'better' I'm certain they are technically. The problem with that however is we're profoundly engulfed in marketing crap which means new means the old is not worthy, (eg one MUST replace, ah buy, new) which of course is utter BS, most certainly when it comes to the final product -- photos!

Thanks!

 

[ARClark]

GAS alert I have moved to mirrorless all the way with most of my F mount glass being sold. I do however still have my 500mm f/4 E FL despite also having the 600mm S TC. Why? Because the ridiculous low price I get for that lens. I have 2 Z9 bodies and a Z8, I can’t use all three at the same time of course but it is nice to go out with a family member and this can shoot the 500mm (not a novice of course that is handling it).
I love shiny new things as somebody wrote it so nicely but luckily, these new goodies also perform better m. Yea, I know, diminishing returns …
No need to get all worked up about it, just enjoy top glass at bargain prices.

I've kept my 500 f/4E, too, along with a 500 PF and 200-500 even though I shoot almost exclusively with a Z9 these days. I've also got a 100-400 and 800 PF. I don't use the 500E a lot, but it's an outstanding lens, even with a 1.4x TC. And it's my only long f/4 lens - indispensable when trying to shoot BIF or other action in marginal light. Plus, I don't imagine I'll be able to replace it with a comparable f/4 S lens for under $12K+ any time soon.

 

[Geoff_G]

No doubt the ML bodies are superior in almost all ways but I‘m referring to lenses here, not cameras.

I understand...I was commenting on this: "You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount."?
IMO, that's body related and has little to do with Z vs F mount lenses (I trust that is what Stefan meant).

 

[Chappy]

I think this is as much about the genre of photography and the age and use of f mount lenses. The first z lens I purchased was a Nikon 70-200 f2.8 G lens. It had served me well and I liked it. However, it was getting old and I had the z6II shooting sports. I decided to get the 70-200S after reading about it. I got more keepers and the 70-200 S way outperformed the old F mount g lens. Whether that was because the S mount was a better lens or the F mount was aged and not performing as well as it once did I do not know. This was all before the announcement of the Z9 but rumors about it were out there.

Following the purchase of the 70-200 I bought the 24-70 for sports. Again it outperformed my F mount 24-70 G. I will admit that my financial situation changed as well as getting more paid gigs not only for sports but also got commissioned shoots for two different client that showed a need for the 14-24 S lens with the only equivalent in my bag being a Sigma 20mm f1.4.

For sports the S lenses outperformed the f mount g lenses with faster AF and better IQ but that could just be the age of the f mount lenses as easily as the quality differences of the S lens over the G lenses.

My primary genres of photography are sports and wildlife photography while doing some landscapes for various commercial customers.

Fast forward to recent months and I bought the 600pf. I also have the Z8 and Z9 now. The 600pf is replacing the 500 pf. I will say that the 600 pf out performs the 500 pf in a few ways. 1. The 600pf is faster in initial acquistion of the subject with AF. The 500pf was fast but not as good as the 600pf. 2. The 600pf works much better with the 1.4 and 2.0 teleconverters. 3. The 600 pf has better tracking even on the edges 4. Backgrounds on the 600pf is much better than on the 500pf. 5. Of course the reach is better with the 600 pf than the 500 pf.

The 500pf is still a great lens and have asked myself more than once if the 600pf was worth the extra cost over the 500pf. After a couple of months with the 600pf I think it is. I have gotten images that I couldnt have with the 500 pf just due to focal length and the initial AF acquisition speed.

I made my bag significantly better with the purchase of S lenses. I skipped buying e lenses and replaced older and heavily used G lenses. I got out of having to use the adapter that didn't bother me all that much but did see a difference of not having to use them after the fact.

You can only see EXIF info for this image if you are logged in.

 

[jeffnles1]

So am I the only one who has deleted all of my images shot with pre-Z equipment ?

I bought a Canon RF system camera back in Feb last year. I have deleted all the Nikon images from my library because they are so inferior. Haha, just trying to get a rise out of the Nikon folks here. I love all cameras and will shoot with anything I get my hands on. Yes I did buy the Canon but I still have Nikon gear too.

I would estimate the overwhelming majority (95% or higher in my opinion) of images posted here would be indistinguishable as to brand of camera body, brand of lens, series of lens, etc. if the EXIF data were not published. Today's cameras and lenses are that close.

Just my opinion and others may vary. Not trying to start an argument just saying I don't think most of us could identify camera type, lens type or megapixel count on an image without the associated EXIF.

 

[Larry S.]

First off, that's a very nice shot.

Secondly, between the quality of the lenses and the bodies, Nikon has made a compelling argument for moving to Z-mount for wildlife shooters. You can get shots with Z-mount that would have been very hard or very lucky to get with F-mount.

That being said, I strongly believe that what you are seeing is a result of the current buyer's demographic ...
An educated guess is that the bulk of people dumping F-mount lenses for Z-mount (or other mirrorless mounts) are of the retired or nearly retired demographic. People who have disposable income (mortgage is paid, kids are off living their lives) but not a lot of time or patience left.
So they are willing to move to Z-mount for the benefits as quickly as possible, with as little friction as possible.

On the bright side, this is creating a nice used gear market for people in the 30-40 years old gap that might not have afforded something like a 500mm PF or a 500mm f4 before. And the camera market is getting a breather from the freefall of the last 10 years.

On the other hand, if I'm right, this is going to bite back the camera manufacturers badly in about 10 years or so ...

P.S:
What amazes me is that you can get a D810 body in near-mint condition for under 800$ and it can still deliver stunning shots of pretty much any subject when paired with one of those dumped F-mount lenses.

Stefan, Much that you said is true. There are real values out there in DSLR gear. Nikon, Canon, Sony et al.. have changed their corporate vision to more effective camera platforms. They all need to be competitive in the marketplace. The mirrorless revolution is not falling into any particular demographic or economic group as I see it. Young professionals are not going to be content with any gear that compromises productivity or quality. The better tools will usually produce the best results. Nikon, for example, has been faithful to the “F” mount since the 50’s. Sixty+ years later technology advanced that eliminated the “mirror”. Then came the changes in lens design.
DougC’s assertion is correct. The frenzied lust for mirrorless “Z” glass has inspired many to throw their “F” lenses under the bus. And, as you pointed out, great used gear values are out there. Not just for budget minded photographers, but everyone. Your example of a D810 for $800 is a good one. You can likely find a D850 for $1,200 or less now. His coyote image speaks for itself. And you agree… Fantastic!
I use both DSLR and Z cameras, for different situations and lenses I have. Yes, I’m a retired guy. But I don’t exactly have a disposable income that allows me to have my camera dealer on “speed dial”… I simply use what works best for my needs. I think a lot of us are in the same boat…..