thelordofthelight
Well-known member
AF-C test...
Z6II and Z7II Revealed
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fcotterill
Well-known member
90 minutes Q & A at Nikon Grays of Westminster answered by Ricci of RicciTalks
Note the disappointing feedback about Custom Settings for action genres, including wildlife. The message is stay with DSLRs if you want these settings (or go elsewhere for Mirrorless)
Note the disappointing feedback about Custom Settings for action genres, including wildlife. The message is stay with DSLRs if you want these settings (or go elsewhere for Mirrorless)
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thelordofthelight
Well-known member
I asked this qn and Ricci mentioned it is a feature reserved for their pro bodies like D5/6/850 and then I saw your comment on how comparable bodies (D850) or even lower priced models like D500 has the feature and Ricci didn't have an answer, he kind of acknowledged that and initially he did mention it is one of the most sought after features by several photographers.
I also specifically asked about the EVF behavior in H+ mode and he categorically mentioned there isn't much change other than the fact that the Z6II shoots at 14 FPS vs Z6 at 12 FPS that could look like an improvement. Doesn't look like they actually did anything to improve the EVF slideshow and "stutter". I am starting to think these updates just don't justify the so called "dual processors" tag..looks like a complete under utilization...
I also specifically asked about the EVF behavior in H+ mode and he categorically mentioned there isn't much change other than the fact that the Z6II shoots at 14 FPS vs Z6 at 12 FPS that could look like an improvement. Doesn't look like they actually did anything to improve the EVF slideshow and "stutter". I am starting to think these updates just don't justify the so called "dual processors" tag..looks like a complete under utilization...
I had noted earlier in this thread there were 3 things I particularly wanted improved and if they were there, I’d likely upgrade my Z7 and Z6. I now see that, at least so far, there is no change (adding the ability to select focus area mode with a single button press) or no material change (more of a real time view in the EVF when shooting high extended) on two of them. Still looking forward to hearing more about the final production units, but not sure I will have an incentive to upgrade.
Sounds like this camera is a total bust as far as shooting wildlife... pretty disappointing.. oh well the search is on for a nice used D850.
For me, better AF-C performance and the grip are enough reasons to upgrade. However, that slide-show thing is really disappointing - I realize it may be necessary at higher frame rates, however, I wish Nikon would have bumped the standard CH rate to 7 or 8 FPS at least, not keep it stuck at 5.5. Seems like something that may be been doable with the extra processor. Looks like I'll stick for Sony for the fast action stuff and the Z MK II's for pretty much what I've been using them for - macro, landscape, and when I need a lightweight kit for hiking / kayaking.
As a quick positive side note though - although the Zs may be lacking for action (I'm still reserving final judgment until I have a chance to field-test them), they are incredibly good for macro and landscape - by far my favorite cameras for those pursuits and the S series lenses have been incredibly good.
As a quick positive side note though - although the Zs may be lacking for action (I'm still reserving final judgment until I have a chance to field-test them), they are incredibly good for macro and landscape - by far my favorite cameras for those pursuits and the S series lenses have been incredibly good.
Steve I would love to know more about why you like the Z's better than the DSLR for macro and landscapes. (just an idea for a video maybe...
)Ad Astra
Well-known member
I get the feeling Nikon are holding something back on the autofocus side to coincide with a new body (Z 8 / Z 9) when those 400mm and 600mm lenses get announced.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
There's this new rumor today on Nikonrumours that talks about 5 different pro level camera prototypes being tested.
nikonrumors.com
Nikon Z8/Z9 rumors confusion because up to five different new PRO cameras are being tested - Nikon Rumors
The reason for the different Nikon Z8 and Nikon Z9 specifications I have been reporting in the past few months is very simple: there are several different prototypes being tested and it is way too early to have a concrete set of specifications more than a year before the official announcement...
nikonrumors.com
In saying that I may not upgrade, I do not mean to suggest the Zs are a total bust for wildlife shooting. I like my Z7 and Z6 a lot. The Z7 plus 500 mm PF has been my most used combination over the last 18 months (I shoot a lot from a kayak in the summers). I have gotten a lot of wonderful wildlife shots with it and even some birds in flight. And even with what we know now, the Z7II and Z6II should be better than the Z7 and Z6. Maybe Steve is right that the AF-C improvements when we see them will be enough to make an upgrade worthwhile for me (not personally interested in a grip). And perhaps the production models will be better -- although if so, it seems to me that we have another marketing failure on Nikon's part, if they let a negative narrative build up over issues they plan to fix. But I am also glad I still have my D500 and D850. Both systems, DSLRs and ML, have their strengths and weaknesses.
I hate the fact you can't program Focus Area or mode to a button, I use that feature all the time on my D500... If the focus issues for BIF are resolved I might be tempted but it sounding more and more that Its just not really there yet... I'm not going to be heart broken if I have to go to a D850 as its a fantastic camera.
Ad Astra
Well-known member
How do mean by cannot program Focus Area or mode to a button ? On my Z 7 I have the record button so pressing it and rotating front dial selects focus area and rear dial selects focus mode. Is that what you are looking for?
I agree that programming a focus area or mode to a single button press is a great feature. I use it a lot on my D500 and D850.
And the D850 is a great camera. If I could have only one body, it would be my choice over mirrorless now, because I like to shoot BIF and other wildlife action. And at the same time, the D850 is a great landscape camera.
Steve I would love to know more about why you like the Z's better than the DSLR for macro and landscapes. (just an idea for a video maybe...
For landscapes, it's close but the S series lenses seem sharper and better in the corners to me. I also shoot Live View for almost all of my landscape work, so it's nice to have to option with the viewfinder and LCD. it's also nice to have the live exposure preview right in the viewfinder as opposed to just the back LCD. Plus, the physical size of the camera is much better when you're hiking to remote locations.
For macros, much of the same applies. However, in addition, Focus Shift Shooting is significantly faster than with a DSLR (at least with the D850) and getting the stacked images on the memory card as quickly as possible is often the difference between getting the series and not getting it with a frog, lizard, or insect.
The option we want is to press a button and have the AF area change as we press, then let go and it goes back to whatever you were using before. We can do this on the D5/6, D850 and D500. However, it's a press and turn on the Z cameras - and then another press and turn to get back. It seems minor, but it can make a big difference
"Better than D6 AF" has my attention!There's this new rumor today on Nikonrumours that talks about 5 different pro level camera prototypes being tested.
Nikon Z8/Z9 rumors confusion because up to five different new PRO cameras are being tested - Nikon Rumors
The reason for the different Nikon Z8 and Nikon Z9 specifications I have been reporting in the past few months is very simple: there are several different prototypes being tested and it is way too early to have a concrete set of specifications more than a year before the official announcement...
Ad Astra
Well-known member
Thanks for the clarification. Yes that turn can take a critical second. I think the Z 6 and Z 7 are positioned just below the D850 hence no illuminated buttons etc. The dual processors will help with speed of auto focus. On the UK Q&A they confirmed auto focus can use both but we are not getting anything new action features in the II versions. Question is how long before the Z 8 Z 9 arrive? Do we wait or upgrade? The Z 7 II looks a good upgrade for my landscape work enabling shutter speeds up to 15 minutes but the extended shutter speed is only available in manual mode.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
With the Z cameras, the biggest problems for Nikon are not the competitor cameras but their own DSLRs.. The D850/500 are legendary cameras and so state of the art when they were released (they still are)...NIkon set such a high benchmark with those cameras that the baseline/expectations with the Z cameras were/are so high. Also, in 2020 where the market is so competitive and competitors are adding everything but the kitchen sink, Nikon cannot afford to make such silly decisions in the name of "product segmentation" because those management decisions are working just the opposite and not helping them sell as many cameras as they should...Let alone making new buyers/ other brand owners invest in Nikon brand, I doubt if Nikon has even convinced loyal Nikon F mount user base to buy a Z camera. They can't play with their ancient DSLR strategies anymore, just my humble opinion.
Very true.When Z7 was announced I had d 500 and bought D 850 since Z7 was not upto my expectations.
Now all my bird and wild life shooting is taken care by D 500 and D 850 with 500 PF and Tamron 70 200 and TC.
I was atleast hoping for a Z 500/600 PF .
There is no sight of that too and hence I find no reason to buy any Z camera in the foreseeable future
fcotterill
Well-known member
I'm yet another loyal Nikon shooter disappointed in Ricci's response to queries about the AF Custom settings (yesterday in the GoW Z chat session). I was pleased Becky (who I know personally) didn't allow him to get away with his mistake re the D500/D850. But perhaps, this dismissal is just another case of the indulged influencer allowing parochial fame fostering smugness. It should be obvious, as posted already elsewhere, how it's so risky in today's ILC market for Nikon to persist in its tradition arrogance - this is "Our camera Range - deal with what's in the D#* model. Oh, and by the way just be grateful for our legacy and services "..... Just consider 2 examples - among many- of the marketing pitch of the Canon R6 for wildlife photography.
Said message = We don't put Pro-camera menu options into mid-range cameras. Well how about the prices of 2K/3K for Z6 II and Z7 II - compared to D500 and D850? Spot the hypocrisy and arrogance. This is getting boring, especially for loyal Nikonians. The reality is yesterday's snide dismissal worshipping the sacred model hierarchy could well cost Nikon a pile of Z II sales - mine included. Some may act on this message to be, "if you really need a MILC with those controls - switch brands". Some Z-watchers will leave the Z system in its kindergarten. The clear understanding and demand merging in this forum is these Custom controls are software, and so why not in Z6 and Z7 2 years ago - given pricing higher than D500 and latterly more than a D850?
Nikon's marketing is mixed, thus confusing. Overall the message could be saying these cameras are primarily for what the public perceive as popular - hence the superficial pitches for shooting portraits with Eye-AF/Tracking etc. Oh and landscapes - pets (well at least in Italy). Then on the other hand, we see usual Nikon bumbling of marketing videos - Z II for wildlife with wolf, bear and action shots ie basketball etc. And the strident message to the mortals from the summit of Nikon CHQ, Tokyo - we took Customer Feedback on the Z6/Z7 very seriously in designing the Z II! Specifically "..we have listened to the market and customers extensively. " Nikon always takes the time to make sure our end-products exceed customer expectations and meet the standards of those users who depend on Nikon reliability and usability." [emphasis added]
Well, in these products you've missed just a few things many requested! Talk about mixed messages
Coincidentally, if only these self anointed Nikon experts learn how portrait photography gets so so much simpler using instant-switching between AF Modes. It gives as big an advantage as with wildlife portraits, especially to clinch a sharp eye within clutter/on stationary subject- interchanging AF mode when bird flies / mammal leaps etc. After all, being primates, a humans can also leap, even a model in makeup. In and out of the obscuring foregrounds )
Said message = We don't put Pro-camera menu options into mid-range cameras. Well how about the prices of 2K/3K for Z6 II and Z7 II - compared to D500 and D850? Spot the hypocrisy and arrogance. This is getting boring, especially for loyal Nikonians. The reality is yesterday's snide dismissal worshipping the sacred model hierarchy could well cost Nikon a pile of Z II sales - mine included. Some may act on this message to be, "if you really need a MILC with those controls - switch brands". Some Z-watchers will leave the Z system in its kindergarten. The clear understanding and demand merging in this forum is these Custom controls are software, and so why not in Z6 and Z7 2 years ago - given pricing higher than D500 and latterly more than a D850?
Nikon's marketing is mixed, thus confusing. Overall the message could be saying these cameras are primarily for what the public perceive as popular - hence the superficial pitches for shooting portraits with Eye-AF/Tracking etc. Oh and landscapes - pets (well at least in Italy). Then on the other hand, we see usual Nikon bumbling of marketing videos - Z II for wildlife with wolf, bear and action shots ie basketball etc. And the strident message to the mortals from the summit of Nikon CHQ, Tokyo - we took Customer Feedback on the Z6/Z7 very seriously in designing the Z II! Specifically "..we have listened to the market and customers extensively. " Nikon always takes the time to make sure our end-products exceed customer expectations and meet the standards of those users who depend on Nikon reliability and usability." [emphasis added]
Well, in these products you've missed just a few things many requested! Talk about mixed messages
Coincidentally, if only these self anointed Nikon experts learn how portrait photography gets so so much simpler using instant-switching between AF Modes. It gives as big an advantage as with wildlife portraits, especially to clinch a sharp eye within clutter/on stationary subject- interchanging AF mode when bird flies / mammal leaps etc. After all, being primates, a humans can also leap, even a model in makeup. In and out of the obscuring foregrounds
)The option we want is to press a button and have the AF area change as we press, then let go and it goes back to whatever you were using before. We can do this on the D5/6, D850 and D500. However, it's a press and turn on the Z cameras - and then another press and turn to get back. It seems minor, but it can make a big difference
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And yet, what does this say about me?...
I continue to be excited by the introduction of the Z6II. The promise of a more responsive AF system with faster acquisition and better tracking mixed with the inherent benefits of mirrorless @ $2000 makes it a bargain in its class. The additional card slot, grip, and likely firmware improvements to the camera suggests that it will be useable by me for the next 5 years or so. At the moment the current crop of Z-bodies are fine for stills and slow moving targets, but they are inadequate when things heat up. So if you want access to Nikon's best/future glass and a mirrorless body, then the Z-II provides most of what people wanted.
While AF-area change at a touch is a very useful feature in the D500/D850, I just do not see how its absence disqualifies the adequacy of these cameras by so many... Maybe it's just me, but I do about 80% of my photography with single point AF and only switch to D25/D9 when shooting in a distraction free habitat like birds in the sky or on the water.
I also think that the "bird-eye" AF and "non-dog eye" AF will be a firmware addition... look at what Nikon was able to introduce with firmware on the Z6/Z7... they went from face detection to eye detection w/ an upgrade. They are better off getting their algorithms right before releasing a failed AF system.
I hope to have my Z6 II in a few weeks (11/5 to 11/15). I've always been honest about my assessment of my Nikon gear and readily complain about Nikon's poor decisions (such as under-delivering in the D780, Z6/Z7 af limits, poor distance AF in the 200-400, etc...). I promise to offer an honest assessment from a nature photographer who does NOT shoot little birds.
regards
bruce
(owlseye from fm)
I continue to be excited by the introduction of the Z6II. The promise of a more responsive AF system with faster acquisition and better tracking mixed with the inherent benefits of mirrorless @ $2000 makes it a bargain in its class. The additional card slot, grip, and likely firmware improvements to the camera suggests that it will be useable by me for the next 5 years or so. At the moment the current crop of Z-bodies are fine for stills and slow moving targets, but they are inadequate when things heat up. So if you want access to Nikon's best/future glass and a mirrorless body, then the Z-II provides most of what people wanted.
While AF-area change at a touch is a very useful feature in the D500/D850, I just do not see how its absence disqualifies the adequacy of these cameras by so many... Maybe it's just me, but I do about 80% of my photography with single point AF and only switch to D25/D9 when shooting in a distraction free habitat like birds in the sky or on the water.
I also think that the "bird-eye" AF and "non-dog eye" AF will be a firmware addition... look at what Nikon was able to introduce with firmware on the Z6/Z7... they went from face detection to eye detection w/ an upgrade. They are better off getting their algorithms right before releasing a failed AF system.
I hope to have my Z6 II in a few weeks (11/5 to 11/15). I've always been honest about my assessment of my Nikon gear and readily complain about Nikon's poor decisions (such as under-delivering in the D780, Z6/Z7 af limits, poor distance AF in the 200-400, etc...). I promise to offer an honest assessment from a nature photographer who does NOT shoot little birds.
regards
bruce
(owlseye from fm)
I look forward to hearing your assessment, Bruce. Given the gear I have now, I have no immediate need to make a decision. And I agree that improved autofocus acquisition and tracking was first on the list of desired improvements.
Yes. Intuitively I agree. We'll see. The real issue for me will be the actual improvements to Eye Detect (for humans!--at least for now).
This is the first Z II AF Face Eye Tracking video I've seen - thanks for posting! Z 6II pre-production camera but that's to be expected. You have to watch for the AF Modes at pauses in the video and on the display. This is definitely a Stage 2 AF demonstration - Stage 1 being run or bicycle (weaving) in front of the camera; Phase 2 being tracking subjects with intervening objects (as in a basketball game). Great to be able to see this. Watch for the number of face detects in the new AF-area wide (L) face eye tracking mode.
Can't wait for Steve's Z II AF look with a production camera.
thelordofthelight
Well-known member
Here's the latest video by Kelvin comparing the Z6 and Z6II