Z9 400mm 2.8 or 600mm 4.0

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@Calson

Have you tried the Z400TC yourself for any length of time?
The hand hold ability of this lens w/access to the Lens Fn buttons & rings is really quite subjective, and I'm in the Brad Hill camp and found for my hand holding style I had good access to the mentioned buttons. Looking through the various reviews I found that it was only Thom Hogan who did not like the handling/hold ability w/button access.
Just to clarify, I've been shooting with long prime Nikkor's for over 35 yrs.

I was fortunate to shoot this lens on a Z9 in March in the Serengeti (granted for only a day) and loved how it felt and balanced in my hand, so much nicer than my 400E, now since sold.
My 400TC is arriving from Nikon in just 2/3 days, and can't wait!
I'm really looking forward to putting this lens through its paces on my upcoming month long Serengeti assignment in 2 weeks.
I'm with you on the 400TC Marc! I read Thoms review when it first came out and was puzzled. He gave the lens 5 stars for Optics and 5 stars for Features and that was and still is the only lens to achieve that 5 star rating for both.

https://www.zsystemuser.com/z-mount-lenses/nikkor-lenses/nikon-z-mount-lens-reviews/

It has a control ring up front that can be setup for several things. I think Tom may have smaller hands and perhaps that's what played into his review which should be "Highly Recommended" not "Recommended" based on what I mentioned above but whatever, people have their reasons and his was ergonomics!

For me the 400/2.8TC is an awesome lens and I did not order the new 600TC. Of course I already have the 800pf so it doesn't interest me at this point. If that lens came out first I probably would have ordered it for sure but now I have 400-800 covered and more with a converter added to the 800pf if needed. What's not to love about that!

Cheers to whatever the OP decides to order, no matter which one it will be awesome to have and use! I will say that the 600TC has the identical layout as the 400TC so Thoms review of it when he tests it should be "Recommended" not "Highly Recommended" since it has the exact same ergonomics and if not I'll really be puzzled!
 
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Cheers to whatever the OP decides to order, no matter what which one it will be awesome to have and use! I will say that the 600TC has the identical layout as the 400TC so Thoms review of it when he tests it should be "Recommended" not "Highly Recommended" since it has the exact same ergonomics and if not I'll really be puzzled!
Indeed George, will be very keen to read his review. ;)

@criegel
Whatever you decide, be it the 400TC (my choice) or the 600TC........granted the very long wait times, get your skates on and place that order!
 
I also think Thom must have somewhat smaller hands. I fit somewhere between him and Brad Hill on the ergonomics. I can reach the lens controls but they're a little bit of a stretch when hand-holding. When it's tripod mounted then it's all easy. It has never bothered me because I'm not really a fan of rotating lens controls anyway. If ever I set them to something like exposure compensation then I just accidentally nudge them and mess with my exposure. The main thing I use is the front lens button for enabling or disabling subject detection and that works well enough in my case.
 
A separate aspect is that with today's high resolution sensors on can crop a great deal more but if the focal length is too long one seldom can move further away to get the right composition in the frame. The 400mm TC can be used as a 400mm/560mm/ 800mm lens and 99% of the pictures I have taken in the past 20 years fall within that focal length range.

With the 600mm lens I always had the 500mm PF on the other camera and with me so I could switch back and forth. Prior to the 500mm PF the 80-400mm was my companion lens for the 600mm f/4. In theory one can shoot at 1200mm with a 2x TC on the 600mm lens but with air currents that is seldom practical in the real world. There is also a point where diffraction becomes the limtation in image quality with smaller effective apertures when using a teleconverter.
 
To add, somewhat off topic, we can be most grateful to the Z mount for many positives; but for some of us, one especially is how it's liberating exotic F-mount optics, which many of us never had any hope of affording. The Used inventories have changed completely since late 2021. In particular, the Z9 liberated a surprising number of not only 180-400 TC's but also 800 f5.6E FL's. With very little demand for the latter in SA, Used prices abseiled even of mint cdn copies.....

[However, I've seen very few if any Used copies of the 105 f1.4E, 200 f2G, nor 120-300 f2.8E, which suggests a fair number have migrated seamlessly with their owners to those who've bought into the Z system :D ]

The FTZ is one superb accessory, the FTZ II in particular. I see no need to ditch F-mount optics, nor in honesty when to move to Z lenses 100%. Rather augment a F system with those more unique Z Nikkors., with distinct advantages. IMHO, the 180-400 f4 TC14 has many unique advantages for many needs in wildlife photography; although the 100-400 f4.5/5.6S is another alternative, which overlaps in many aspects.

Equally, admittedly in a tighter niche, I find the 800 f5.6/ 1000 f7.1 - in one huge prime - is unique with outstanding image quality in the 400 f2.8E realm, but it's important to add these exotics, i.e. heavy tele-zoom and heavier prime, are best confined and combined in fixed stations or hides (vehicle included). The 400 f4.5S or 500 PF are there for the sustained handholding and hikes etc, as is the 800 PF.
As my ornithologist friend did, he ditched the 500 f4 he loved the files from, parked the tripod/mono pods, took a D500 300 f4 PF 1.4 III tc, documenting different bird species migrating and breeding, his capture rate nearly tripled.

Lots of 500 pfs around, the 600 F4 FL will flow once the new supply rolls out.

I agree the 105 f1.4E, 200 f2G are desirable as is the 70-200 fl for myself.

When i bought my 300 f2.8 vr II a long time ago, i did a side by side comparison with the 200 f2 G and 200-400 using my D3X and i know the 200 F2 is spectacular, while there is a difference ever so slightly more so in lower light, i felt 200mm might niche me out to much, so with that small compromise and as i was boarder line on 300 as a minimum desired length i went for the 300 F2.8 with no regrets.

I was really wanting a 400 reach at F2.8 but it was a monster, so the 300 was the sweet spot i can easily hand hold and shoot.

Hands down the Z glass is excellent, however i am preferring to swim in the used FX exotic pool for a while.

My budget can handle the new gear but my principals cant, not the amount of times i would be using them, going forward i would rather rent if needed.
To me 2 to 3 kgs is as much in a lens as i want.

The 400 F4.5 is very interesting for me and i can swap the 300 2.8 out for it and half the weight, 2 issues, i will miss F2.8 or F4 as that's where i use the lens primarily, and then i cant use the Z lens on the D850 or other D6 Df etc.

A good used 500 pf seems the possible attraction for small and light but other than weight has only a small advantage over the 200-500 i have, the 500 pf used along side the 70-200 fl. is handy, my needs rarely go past 600mm and preferably on a F4.

Going slowly is OK for me, i have the Z9 and D850 and FX glass with options.
I am a F2.8 F4 lover.

A slot or two in PS raw editor or LR or NIK and you wont be able to tell to much of a difference which lens LOL.

Hey if you can get them and afford them more power to you, enjoy, life is short. There is no right or wrong, be happy.
 
Overlooked is what one wants to take to a location to shoot and have the most focal length range at usable apertures. It comes down to which two or three lenses one will actually take on a trip. local or overseas. Both the bulk and the overall weight and the need for either a monopod or a tripod with a gimbal head (an additional 8+ lbs to carry) is very important.

With my last trip to Costa Rica I took the 600mm f/4E, 80-400mm, 500mm PF, 200mm f/4 macro, two teleconverters, flash, batteries, etc. and the 32L backpack weighed in at 37 lbs. and was very difficult to haul around. At a certain point less is more for me. I replaced the 600mm with the 800mm and saved about 4 lbs of weight and could shoot at times hand held. I replaced the 80-400mm with the 100-400mm, and replaced the 500mm PF with the 400mm f/4.5 and both new lenses work with the S teleconverters so I got rid of my f-mount teleconverters, reducing my TC count from 4 to 2.

I also have in the back of my mind the new S 200-600mm lens that should become available sometime in 2023. I found the 200-500mm to short at 500mm and too slow to use with a TC-14, but the 200-600mm could be far more useful and covers the 400mm to 600mm focal length range that I have used the most in the past.
 
Overlooked is what one wants to take to a location to shoot and have the most focal length range at usable apertures. It comes down to which two or three lenses one will actually take on a trip. local or overseas. Both the bulk and the overall weight and the need for either a monopod or a tripod with a gimbal head (an additional 8+ lbs to carry) is very important.

With my last trip to Costa Rica I took the 600mm f/4E, 80-400mm, 500mm PF, 200mm f/4 macro, two teleconverters, flash, batteries, etc. and the 32L backpack weighed in at 37 lbs. and was very difficult to haul around. At a certain point less is more for me. I replaced the 600mm with the 800mm and saved about 4 lbs of weight and could shoot at times hand held. I replaced the 80-400mm with the 100-400mm, and replaced the 500mm PF with the 400mm f/4.5 and both new lenses work with the S teleconverters so I got rid of my f-mount teleconverters, reducing my TC count from 4 to 2.

I also have in the back of my mind the new S 200-600mm lens that should become available sometime in 2023. I found the 200-500mm to short at 500mm and too slow to use with a TC-14, but the 200-600mm could be far more useful and covers the 400mm to 600mm focal length range that I have used the most in the past.
There is an overlap with the 100-400 and 400 F/4.5. Why not, if you have it, 70-200 and 400 f/4.5?
 
After reading the 400mm f/2.8 Z lens review by Thom Hogan I decided not to buy this lens which is arriving at the photo store on Tuesday.


The bottom line is that this lens cannot be shot hand held as a practical manner if one wants to access the lens control or Fn buttons. This means that for all practical purposes I would be having to shoot with it mounted on a tripod. For me the 500mm PF lens was a game changer as I never needed a tripod when shooting with it. The Z 400mm f/2.8 would be big step back for me.

I decided to keep my 800mm PF and 400mm f/4.5 lenses along with the 100-400mm and two teleconverters for my kit. A little bulkier and 2 lbs heavier kit but all three lenses I shot with hand held with no issues. For me this is the best setup at this point in time.

When I first replaced my 500mm f/4 lens with the 600mm f/4 one it turned out to be a mistake for the most part. The 500mm f/4 and 700mm f/5.6 provided a better choice of view angles for most subjects in the wild. I quickly added the 500mm PF lens when it came out and found myself using the 600mm f/4 lens less and less. Being able to shoot hand held made it possible to move around much faster to get the best position and best background for a subject and to get down to eye level. It is a night and day difference in shooting mobility. I also often make use of a boat for photographing wildlife and a tripod has only worked on a hardbottom inflatable with its flat deck and very little yawl motion.
My pathway is in your vein. It will be the 100-400Z, 500PF and 800Z PF(on order) and the 1.4 and 2.0Z TCs, FTZ and TC14EIII, with the Z9, Z6, D850 as circumstances dictate. The lighter weights and hand-holdability work best with my walk and shoot style most places we visit. Plus the close focus range of hte 100-400 really covers a lot of ground for how I shoot wildlife. Diffferent combos for landscape and macro but the list above covers the range and is lighter weight.
 
I would love to hear your thoughts on selecting between the 400 2.8 with TC versus the new 600 4.0. I am leaning toward getting the 400 2.8 with TC. I am interested in maximizing reach. The 400 will give me 560 at 4.0 with built in TC and 800 at 5.6 with a 2.0 TC if my calculations are right
Thanks
Before FX, using a DX I had the the 400 f2.8, which I loved…It was the perfect lens as far as I was concerned. Giving an effective 600mm f2.8, and 840 f4.0 / TE 1.4. Then came FX, all at once it was not so great. It came up a bit short so to speak. I added the 600 F4. While I liked the 400 better I found I used the 600 w/wo TE 1.4 more just because of the reach. I did use the 400 when using a blind + feeders to bring the birds in close, and with lrage mammals. No mater how you cut it there is no substitute for focal length when it come to birds in the wild. Now that I have switched over to ”Z” lens I have the 70-200 f2.8 + TE1.4 that I use in conjunction with the 400 F4.5. I have both the 400 f2.8, and 600 f4 on order. Maybe someday I’ll receive at least one of them. In the mean time I kept my 600 F4 FL..
 
I’m lucky to have the 800pf.
The 500pf
And Allot of high ISO images.

400 2.8 has the ability to capture more of these critical LIGHT PHOTONS. Even with the subject smaller in the frame, with more light the crop will retain a much higher image quality.

My only concern is mobility.
The 800pf is handholdable but a workout… crunching and banding in all add positions. I cant imagine doing all this with the weight of the 400 f/2.8.
At Conowingo the 400/2.8 is a wrong tool.
I believe the 400/2.8 is for larger subjects, not birds. And can only be handled in body supporting positions.

I want to own one one day…

The 600/4 TC isn’t handholdable like the 800pf. Its perfect with at least a monopod. Which rules out following BIF freely.
 
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