Z9 RAW - Changing Picture Controls to minimize noise out of camera

[Hooligans Imagery]

There is one other technique Vincent Versace mentioned. He believes that NX Studio is the best raw converter for Nikon files. In his fine art workflow, he wants the benefits of layers in Photoshop. In Photoshop he wants a ProPhotoRGB color space - the widest available - but ProPhoto is not an option for his output. So he sets up Capture NX-D as his Open With application. This lets him make RAW adjustments in NXStudio, carry those adjustments to Capture NX-D and then generate a ProPhoto raw conversion with his NXStudio adjustments from Capture NX-D.

I have not tried this, but Versace has been involved with Nikon software since the very early days so I respect his opinion.

@EricBowles Isn't Capture NX-D very old software? Download page takes you to NX Studio. I don't think you can get it now. Also the Compatible With page doesn't list the Z9. However when I got into NX Studio I see you can pick ProPhoto. What you get though for exporting is a choice of TIFF or JPG. So is his workflow to do this at the beginning?

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

As an aside here I also just discover that you can skip the sidecar files, but LR doesn't appear to respond to changes in the metadata even if you do that. Maybe I did the test wrong but Options>Save you can choose to go to the original file. So I attempted to make the changes in the video to the original file. Then I synchronized the image in LR and told it to scan for metadata changes, but what I see is still the default setting of 40 for sharpening (using Standard Profile), and I can't see evidence of my changes based on the video.

 

[EricBowles]

@EricBowles Isn't Capture NX-D very old software? Download page takes you to NX Studio. I don't think you can get it now. Also the Compatible With page doesn't list the Z9. However when I got into NX Studio I see you can pick ProPhoto. What you get though for exporting is a choice of TIFF or JPG. So is his workflow to do this at the beginning?

As I recall, he was trying to avoid creating an interim TIFF and to maintain the RAW file until he got into PS. By using Edit In to NX-D and then Edit In from NX-D into PS, he was able to maintain a ProPhotoRGB (Nikon Wide Gamut) raw file that included the changes he might make in NXStudio. Once he gets to a TIFF, the settings are baked in with the related limitations on changes. With this approach, he was delaying creating a TIFF until he generated an output in PS.

I see Nikon as an workspace option in NXStudio (Edit/Options/Color Management), but I don't see a way to select an export color space.

 

[bleirer]

As I recall, he was trying to avoid creating an interim TIFF and to maintain the RAW file until he got into PS. By using Edit In to NX-D and then Edit In from NX-D into PS, he was able to maintain a ProPhotoRGB (Nikon Wide Gamut) raw file that included the changes he might make in NXStudio. Once he gets to a TIFF, the settings are baked in with the related limitations on changes. With this approach, he was delaying creating a TIFF until he generated an output in PS.

I see Nikon as an workspace option in NXStudio (Edit/Options/Color Management), but I don't see a way to select an export color space.

There is an "add/remove ICC profile" option in the NX Studio export dialog. One could check it in photoshop by temporarily clicking the convert to profile menu just to see what color space it got imported into Photoshop as.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Dan, yes understood that with RAW you can go apply any setting. I think the question is what creates the best set of all images out of the camera for further processing.
Here is a detailed article on how Picture Control impacts the LR defaults.
Maybe though it's just better to change the Defaults for a camera in LR - as the article states, rather than in picture control, for LR users.



EDIT- There is one major piece missing though which is how mid-range sharpening gets translated to Lightroom. I don't see how that is done so maybe it has to be in camera. AND THAT STILL LEAVES THE QUESTION DOES LIGHTROOM PROCESS THIS INFORMATION??


So hence the question - if the defaults are changed - what happens with the rest of the experience. More images are solid out of the camera and need less processing is one choice and then how does that impact the rest of the process.

With the Z9 I have switched Light Room Classic (LRC) to use Camera Setting instead of Adobe Defaults. And as the article you shared states this uses far more than just the picture control. The Z9 high ISO noise reduction is actually amazing (I usually use the low setting or normal). Since I have made the switch there are times if I got it right in camera I have to do nothing except crop if needed then export in the format and size needed for intended use. If I did not quite get it right ... say I needed EV +1.7 and only did .7 or got surprised or infatuated with my subject and forgot to change ev at all then it still takes a lot less editing.

It even comes down to simple things like white balance ... one of the biggest reasons to shoot RAW for me. If I am shooting on partly cloudy day with a lot of light but with a lot of snow in the image then cloudy white balance rather than my normal natural light auto white balance just works better and that just makes one less thing to deal with in LRC before exporting.

In my advancing age and emphasis on citizen science in the birding world I compete in far fewer contests than I used to. One informal "contest" I still participate in is the Outdoor Idaho Facebook Page monthly photo contest. If you are a "winner" in the contest then you are a judge the next month and not eligible. The first 2 months I was eligible I won with images with no edits other than cropping after I had changed to paying closer attention to my in camera settings and using "camera settings" in LRC. One of those images was shot early AM with Z9 and Z800 in the shade with ISO 7200. The same image also surprised me, the critiquer and others at a print night competition at my camera club with the print quality.

Yes I still get sloppy and have to send an image on a round trip through my Topaz photo AI plug in but my Topaz plug in has gotten more costly because I use it far less.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

With the Z9 I have switched Light Room Classic (LRC) to use Camera Setting instead of Adobe Defaults. And as the article you shared states this uses far more than just the picture control. The Z9 high ISO noise reduction is actually amazing (I usually use the low setting or normal). Since I have made the switch there are times if I got it right in camera I have to do nothing except crop if needed then export in the format and size needed for intended use. If I did not quite get it right ... say I needed EV +1.7 and only did .7 or got surprised or infatuated with my subject and forgot to change ev at all then it still takes a lot less editing.

It even comes down to simple things like white balance ... one of the biggest reasons to shoot RAW for me. If I am shooting on partly cloudy day with a lot of light but with a lot of snow in the image then cloudy white balance rather than my normal natural light auto white balance just works better and that just makes one less thing to deal with in LRC before exporting.

In my advancing age and emphasis on citizen science in the birding world I compete in far fewer contests than I used to. One informal "contest" I still participate in is the Outdoor Idaho Facebook Page monthly photo contest. If you are a "winner" in the contest then you are a judge the next month and not eligible. The first 2 months I was eligible I won with images with no edits other than cropping after I had changed to paying closer attention to my in camera settings and using "camera settings" in LRC. One of those images was shot early AM with Z9 and Z800 in the shade with ISO 7200. The same image also surprised me, the critiquer and others at a print night competition at my camera club with the print quality.

Yes I still get sloppy and have to send an image on a round trip through my Topaz photo AI plug in but my Topaz plug in has gotten more costly because I use it far less.

@Ken Miracle for sure I am using "in camera settings" although once in Lightroom I often check Adobe as well if its Landscape.

You make a GREAT point on the High ISO since I mostly use HE*, and since the Nikon format is unique with the use of Pico's new format. The article has a good explanation of how these are treated in Lightroom. I am curious of how they are reflected in NX Studio and am tempted to do some tests. With NX Studio now supporting Apple Silicon it's much more useable (Windows users beware of upgrading as some say the new version doesn't work - see DP Review). I just wish Nikon would allow for saving in DNG instead of just Tiff.

This thread though was really about whether changing Picture Control sharpening sub items for a particular choice like Standard has an impact in Lightroom. I don't see that it does. If you choose Standard, Lightroom chooses 40. So the video I posted makes no sense to me as the interpretation by Nikon and Adobe and their implementation are different.

Nikon explains its sharpening in an early article on the Z6 and Z7 and they clearly relate the settings to size. In any event, Adobe sliders are different and and are reasonably well explained in the context of underwater photography in this article.

Thanks to everyone participating for helping me dive deeper into this topic.

 

[bleirer]

@Ken Miracle for sure I am using "in camera settings" although once in Lightroom I often check Adobe as well if its Landscape.

You make a GREAT point on the High ISO since I mostly use HE*, and since the Nikon format is unique with the use of Pico's new format. The article has a good explanation of how these are treated in Lightroom. I am curious of how they are reflected in NX Studio and am tempted to do some tests. With NX Studio now supporting Apple Silicon it's much more useable (Windows users beware of upgrading as some say the new version doesn't work - see DP Review). I just wish Nikon would allow for saving in DNG instead of just Tiff.

This thread though was really about whether changing Picture Control sharpening sub items for a particular choice like Standard has an impact in Lightroom. I don't see that it does. If you choose Standard, Lightroom chooses 40. So the video I posted makes no sense to me as the interpretation by Nikon and Adobe and their implementation are different.

Nikon explains its sharpening in an early article on the Z6 and Z7 and they clearly relate the settings to size. In any event, Adobe sliders are different and and are reasonably well explained in the context of underwater photography in this article.

Thanks to everyone participating for helping me dive deeper into this topic.

View attachment 53514

Would this be identical to choosing any camera matching profile in lightroom and then dialing in your own texture, clarity, and sharpening according to the chart? If so could you just make LR presets for each one?

 

[Ken Miracle]

@Ken Miracle for sure I am using "in camera settings" although once in Lightroom I often check Adobe as well if its Landscape.

You make a GREAT point on the High ISO since I mostly use HE*, and since the Nikon format is unique with the use of Pico's new format. The article has a good explanation of how these are treated in Lightroom. I am curious of how they are reflected in NX Studio and am tempted to do some tests. With NX Studio now supporting Apple Silicon it's much more useable (Windows users beware of upgrading as some say the new version doesn't work - see DP Review). I just wish Nikon would allow for saving in DNG instead of just Tiff.

This thread though was really about whether changing Picture Control sharpening sub items for a particular choice like Standard has an impact in Lightroom. I don't see that it does. If you choose Standard, Lightroom chooses 40. So the video I posted makes no sense to me as the interpretation by Nikon and Adobe and their implementation are different.

Nikon explains its sharpening in an early article on the Z6 and Z7 and they clearly relate the settings to size. In any event, Adobe sliders are different and and are reasonably well explained in the context of underwater photography in this article.

Thanks to everyone participating for helping me dive deeper into this topic.

View attachment 53514

Because I remembered seeing varying sharpening amounts from the Z9 (FW 3.01) in LRC when I opened the develop module and had done no adjustments of any kind yet I just checked the 7 images I had kept in my LRC catalog from the last outing with Z9 and Z800. All HE* and Standard Picture Control. I created a copy of each image and reset each of the copies to double check to see if I had changed the sharpening slider and I had not. I used as usual Standard picture control and on that day the sharpening amount shown on LRC varied from 40 to 32. The default texture and clarity was +8 and +4. In picture control I was a + 3 for sharpening, +2 mid range sharpening +1 for clarity and +2 for contrast for all of them which is my normal with that body and lens.

I have never had a Z6 or Z7 and have not used my Z6II since I made the change from adobe default to camera settings so no experience with this other than Z9.

I forgot to mention there were as always varying amounts of Noise Reduction in the detail panel since I have high iso NR turned on (low or possibly normal not sure which that day). Just looking at luminance as expected the least amount was 34 at ISO 180 and the most at 51 at ISO 10,000.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Because I remembered seeing varying sharpening amounts from the Z9 (FW 3.01) in LRC when I opened the develop module and had done no adjustments of any kind yet I just checked the 7 images I had kept in my LRC catalog from the last outing with Z9 and Z800. All HE* and Standard Picture Control. I created a copy of each image and reset each of the copies to double check to see if I had changed the sharpening slider and I had not. I used as usual Standard picture control and on that day the sharpening amount shown on LRC varied from 40 to 32. The default texture and clarity was +8 and +4. In picture control I was a + 3 for sharpening, +2 mid range sharpening +1 for clarity and +2 for contrast for all of them which is my normal with that body and lens.

I have never had a Z6 or Z7 and have not used my Z6II since I made the change from adobe default to camera settings so no experience with this other than Z9.

Your 7 images - check the ISO - that probably explains the decrease from 40 to 32.
Two settings control the default Sharpening Amount set by the Nikon Z 9. First, the Picture Control sets a Sharpening Amount. Then, as ISO increases, the Sharpening Amount is gradually reduced, starting at ISO 1000.

For example, the Standard Picture Control sets a Sharpening Amount of 40 between ISO 32-800. At ISO 1000, the amount is gradually reduced, and at ISO 25600 and above, it is lowered significantly to 10.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Would this be identical to choosing any camera matching profile in lightroom and then dialing in your own texture, clarity, and sharpening according to the chart? If so could you just make LR presets for each one?

Bill indeed - this is what I am trying to sort through. The original video posted was a follow on to one where the shots were in JPG and he reduced mid range sharpening to lower noise shown. I don't agree with what he says is going on with RAW. I am now trying to translate what Nikon does to what LR does. I am a huge fan of LR or ACR's easy AI masking now. Right now I think the interpretation of the Picture Controls is pretty good and I need more experience. I think selectively painting the presence settings on could help as well.

I am also trying to sort through when I use Topaz AI or standalone products in my workflow.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Your 7 images - check the ISO - that probably explains the decrease from 40 to 32.
Two settings control the default Sharpening Amount set by the Nikon Z 9. First, the Picture Control sets a Sharpening Amount. Then, as ISO increases, the Sharpening Amount is gradually reduced, starting at ISO 1000.

For example, the Standard Picture Control sets a Sharpening Amount of 40 between ISO 32-800. At ISO 1000, the amount is gradually reduced, and at ISO 25600 and above, it is lowered significantly to 10.

I edited my reply to comment on the ISO and the high ISO noise reduction and was wondering if there was a relationship between ISO and sharpening, but just as I was getting ready to compare my wife told me it was time to leave for church

Just as you noted the images below ISO 1,000 were at 40 for sharpening and an image at ISO 1,000 was at 38 and the one at ISO 10,000 was 32.

 

[ccirelli]

Picture Controls are baked in and converted to LR settings - see the article I linked. If Tether is sending a NEF those are settings used in the RAW rendering that LR does. LR doesn't bake them in until you export if that makes sense. Lightroom just shows a preview of all the settings.

I thought / I was told that this is only true for JPG's. Until I set picture control to Mono, thinking I'd get a mono JPG and standard / color RAW file (my settings always write RAW to slot 1, JPG to slot 2). Both files came into Lr as mono.

And I of course could completely be misunderstanding something here.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

I thought / I was told that this is only true for JPG's. Until I set picture control to Mono, thinking I'd get a mono JPG and standard / color RAW file (my settings always write RAW to slot 1, JPG to slot 2). Both files came into Lr as mono.

And I of course could completely be misunderstanding something here.

They apply to both, but some of them don't "translate" to Adobe's raw methodology so they don't really come over. Unless I tested wrong, mid range sharpening is one of them. I linked above a good article on Picture Controls and LR.

 

[EricBowles]

I thought / I was told that this is only true for JPG's. Until I set picture control to Mono, thinking I'd get a mono JPG and standard / color RAW file (my settings always write RAW to slot 1, JPG to slot 2). Both files came into Lr as mono.

And I of course could completely be misunderstanding something here.

The JPEG has the settings "baked in". The RAW file has the embedded previews and default picture control and camera profile settings, but you can change those settings in the raw file during editing - as well as a number of other settings. So in LR you can simply change the Camera Profile and Camera Standard or other choices are available.

 

[ccirelli]

The JPEG has the settings "baked in". The RAW file has the embedded previews and default picture control and camera profile settings, but you can change those settings in the raw file during editing - as well as a number of other settings. So in LR you can simply change the Camera Profile and Camera Standard or other choices are available.

AH ok so that's what I'm thinking of - so in my example above, I of course would not be able to say, change the JPG to color - BUT with the RAW file in Lr, I have the option of changing to color by changing camera profile. Super helpful / thanks!

 

[bleirer]

The term baked in is being used in different ways. To me it means it is a non-reversible setting. Like applying sharpening to an in camera jpeg has the sharpening applied and you can't reverse it in lightroom or NX Studio, so it is baked in. But the same amount of sharpening in camera but with a raw file can be reversed if it is applied with no consequences, so not baked in. I think the bottom line is that lightroom isnt ever applying any hidden magic, it's all the same dropdowns and sliders we can see in plain view whether the settings are preset using info from the camera settings or applied by the user later.

 

[NorthernFocus]

... I think the bottom line is that lightroom isnt ever applying any hidden magic, it's all the same dropdowns and sliders we can see in plain view whether the settings are preset using info from the camera settings or applied by the user later.

Exactly. Using the picture control settings is no different than applying a user preset during import. It's basically the same old argument about SOOC vs PP. It's simply a matter of preference whether you punch buttons on the camera or on the keyboard.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Exactly. Using the picture control settings is no different than applying a user preset during import. It's basically the same old argument about SOOC vs PP. It's simply a matter of preference whether you punch buttons on the camera or on the keyboard.

Yup that it is.

I do like the added in camera settings that come accross from the Z9 to LrC now (especially high iso noise reduction) that did not with my old DSLR's. It also might have been available with D6 or D850 and I never noticed it or read about it. I used some user develop presets I put together that usually put me in the ballpark most of the time with the D850, D500 and D6 I actually had different presets for each camera body.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Development -Well in fact the mid-range sharpening slider in Picture Controls does change the RAW settings. It's just not the sharpening setting which I was looking for, it's the Texture setting in the Presence panel. I just tested it. A value of -5 or +5 in the PC setting will end up with a Texture setting of -20 or +20. What's interesting is compare this to the Nikon article I linked and consider that you can adjust all this upon import with a preset. I am not sure I care to change the defaults in RAW. If I were shooting jpg, then I am not sure I would want to lose the mid-range sharpening of the subject.

Thoughts are welcome.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Development -Well in fact the mid-range sharpening slider in Picture Controls does change the RAW settings. It's just not the sharpening setting which I was looking for, it's the Texture setting in the Presence panel. I just tested it. A value of -5 or +5 in the PC setting will end up with a Texture setting of -20 or +20. What's interesting is compare this to the Nikon article I linked and consider that you can adjust all this upon import with a preset. I am not sure I care to change the defaults in RAW. If I were shooting jpg, then I am not sure I would want to lose the mid-range sharpening of the subject.

Thoughts are welcome.

Interesting ... I have Standard Picture control mid range set at +2 which I think is the default in standard. In LRC that shows a +8 for Texture in the presence panel. For a long time I have used a user preset that I start development with in most cases that sets texture to +40.

I started using that preset when the Texture slider was introduced and I believe it was Matt K who suggested that it seemed to be sharpening by another name but that it also was less likely to negatively impact noise than using clarity in the presence panel or sharpening in the detail panel. I played with it and liked the results and hence why I included that in my 2 develop starting point user presets.

 

[Hooligans Imagery]

Interesting ... I have Standard Picture control mid range set at +2 which I think is the default in standard. In LRC that shows a +8 for Texture in the presence panel. For a long time I have used a user preset that I start development with in most cases that sets texture to +40.

I started using that preset when the Texture slider was introduced and I believe it was Matt K who suggested that it seemed to be sharpening by another name but that it also was less likely to negatively impact noise than using clarity in the presence panel or sharpening in the detail panel. I played with it and liked the results and hence why I included that in my 2 develop starting point user presets.

Ken a couple of thoughts.
Article on Texture, Clarity and Dehaze written for underwater but applies to all with one takeaway that it might be better to use selectively, even as simple as subject masking in LR or ACR which is so easy now.
Second go back to my linked article by Nikon on their interpretation of the sharpening.
This may or may not impact your workflow.

My entire exercise with these posts is to help me understand a workflow that I think is effective and efficient. Just trying to learn.
What I do know is that Nikon and Adobe don't do the same thing, and you can always do like you do which is change the preset when using RAW during import, and so lots of choices.

 

[Ken Miracle]

Ken a couple of thoughts.
Article on Texture, Clarity and Dehaze written for underwater but applies to all with one takeaway that it might be better to use selectively, even as simple as subject masking in LR or ACR which is so easy now.
Second go back to my linked article by Nikon on their interpretation of the sharpening.
This may or may not impact your workflow.

My entire exercise with these posts is to help me understand a workflow that I think is effective and efficient. Just trying to learn.
What I do know is that Nikon and Adobe don't do the same thing, and you can always do like you do which is change the preset when using RAW during import, and so lots of choices.

Yes a lot of ways to do it. I usually use masking in the sharpening panel to refine what the sharpening is applied to and it is very effective by itself and since it became available I use selective subject sharpening by itself less often.

But occasionally I still use selective sharpening and other adjustments for the subject. Another new LRC feature I like kicks in when select subject does not do as good a job as I would like. So instead of subtracting from the subject selection I delete the mask and use the new objects selection instead and it is more precise when subject had included other stuff in the image with similar tonal qualities to the subject ... think birds in trees and brush.

Topaz DeNoise and now Topaz Photo AI also have auto or selective subject selection/isolation features. I do not use my Topaz plug ins often but when I do I notice Photo A1 now frequently doing a very good job of selectively applying sharpening etc. to the subject.